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The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

Hospes said:
So you know a large majority of the people to whom you present the Gospel will be saved? What is the advantage of knowing everyone has the real potential to be saved all the while knowing that a large majority won't accept your message?
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TibiasDad said:
Did I say that?
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My apologies for not being more clear. My first question was rhetorical. (I assumed you would not know the majority of the people you present the Gospel would be saved.) If you will notice, the second question implies the first was rhetorical. The second question is not rhetorical, so it would be nice to hear your answer to it.
 
JLB said:
I don't see any direction in scripture to see the various aspects of being born-again, being simultaneous or sequential.

I just read the scripture, and quote what it says.

So where does this leave you as a Calvinist in the question regarding salvation?

Does believing result in salvation or does salvation result in believing?

Many of the Calvinist’s that I have had discussions with, say that salvation comes first, then the ability to believe.
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I hear the same as you regarding there being sequence. So my question to my fellow Calvinists is the same as I posed to you: where in scripture is it made clear there is a sequence rather than salvation aspects occurring simultaneously? Honestly, I am not sure I understand why other Calvinists insist on the sequence they do. (Maybe there is a historical argument of which I am unaware.) Seems there is a philosophical argument that may be put forth, but I tend to not give weight to philosophical arguments not clearly backed by scripture. ( Example: philosophically, I am attracted to the ultimate annihilation of the unbeliever, but I find it conflicts with the Bible, so I discard it)

Also, in my own experience, I cannot clearly see a sequence in my own salvation. It seemed to just happen all at once and I walked away a new creation in Christ. (Not that we should create doctrine based on our experiences; our understanding of such is NOT authoritative.)

Probably TMI. :)
 
Hospes said:
So my question to my fellow Calvinists is the same as I posed to you: where in scripture is it made clear there is a sequence rather than salvation aspects occurring simultaneously?
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Short answer: Calvinists/reformed believe 'regeneration' precedes 'faith/repentance'. This is NOT a chronological sequence, but a logical sequencing.

Longer answer:
Following for Ligonier (A reformed website) https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/order-salvation/

The ordo salutis is the order of salvation. This focuses on the acts of God and the response of the individual in salvation. God calls us, produces regeneration in us, so that we respond with repentance, faith, and obedience. Behind the divine call is God’s electing decree. The ordo salutis is not concerned with a temporal sequence of events, but with a logical order.

Paul provides a condensed form of the ordo salutis in Romans 8:29–30. He tells us that God foreknew certain people and predestinated them to be conformed to the image of His Son. Since God exists in eternity, foreknowledge and predestination are not sequential actions on His part, but logical aspects of His decree. Romans 8:30 says that God called these people to His kingdom, and that those who are called are justified. Since we are justified by faith, we can insert faith between calling and justification. In fact, God’s inward call produces regeneration in us, which causes us to cry out in repentance and faith, so that we are justified.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Short answer: Calvinists/reformed believe 'regeneration' precedes 'faith/repentance'. This is NOT a chronological sequence, but a logical sequencing.

Longer answer:
Following for Ligonier (A reformed website) https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/order-salvation/

The ordo salutis is the order of salvation. This focuses on the acts of God and the response of the individual in salvation. God calls us, produces regeneration in us, so that we respond with repentance, faith, and obedience. Behind the divine call is God’s electing decree. The ordo salutis is not concerned with a temporal sequence of events, but with a logical order.

Paul provides a condensed form of the ordo salutis in Romans 8:29–30. He tells us that God foreknew certain people and predestinated them to be conformed to the image of His Son. Since God exists in eternity, foreknowledge and predestination are not sequential actions on His part, but logical aspects of His decree. Romans 8:30 says that God called these people to His kingdom, and that those who are called are justified. Since we are justified by faith, we can insert faith between calling and justification. In fact, God’s inward call produces regeneration in us, which causes us to cry out in repentance and faith, so that we are justified.
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Of course, I love Sproul. Nonetheless, I find it difficult to wrap my brain around an "order of" anything without it being capable of being set on a timeline. Even if I can't understand a non-temporal logical sequence, I do see clearly that it is "God who saves, freeing us from the sinful tendency to take some credit for our own salvation. We do not proclaim, 'I found it,' but, “He found me.” Rejoice that it is God who is the author and finisher of your faith."

( I wonder how many even remember the "I found it" evangelistic campaign.)
 
There is Christianity - and there is Calvinism.
They don't mix.
People in Calvinism are zeroes, automatons, robots...
God is a Puppet-Master, a tyrant who arbitrarily chooses that a majority of people are going to burn, and Calvinists chant how "just" that is. The god of Calvinism is my Devil.
 
Hospes said:
Even if I can't understand a non-temporal logical sequence
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Definition or "ORDER" ... "the arrangement or disposition of people or things in relation to each other according to a particular sequence, pattern, or method". So I might order the visible color spectrum by their wavelength from shortest to longest wavelength are: violet, blue, green, yellow, orange, and red..

The order of salvation does not have to be temporal (time). Rather, it is a logical order of cause and effect where a cause always logically precedes an effect known as the Law of Causality which is true by definition.

'Reform' people would say the cause is God via the vehicle of 'regeneration' and the effect is man's 'faith and repentance'.

The semi-pelagians would say the cause is man's 'faith and repentance' and the effect is God's 'regeneration'.

Reform theology says God is the 'first cause' of all things, He Himself having no cause (he is not an effect) which correlates with His attribute of eternality (I AM). He causes those He selects (the elect) to have faith (second cause).

Semi-pelagians believe man can have salvific faith the cause of which is himself. As man is not eternal, logic dictates the source of the faith must have cause (Law of Causality - every effect has a cause). The source of the cause is unknown and defies the Law of Causality and therefore is not rational.
 
Episcopius said:
There is Christianity - and there is Calvinism.
They don't mix.
People in Calvinism are zeroes, automatons, robots...
God is a Puppet-Master, a tyrant who arbitrarily chooses that a majority of people are going to burn, and Calvinists chant how "just" that is. The god of Calvinism is my Devil.
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Wow, don't hold anything back. Just come out and tell us how you really feel and have us feel the love! :)
 
Hospes said:
If you believe we are all born with the natural desire to sin, couldn't it be that in essence we are all predestined to be sinners? Let's say you, loving the darkness and hating the light, rounded up as many eastern European Jews and shoved them into camps and slaughtered them like animals. Would you be personally responsible for your actions or is God at fault for allowing you to be born with a natural desire to sin?
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God would be responsible for creating me with this natural desire to sin. With to choices of my own the responsibility for those choices will fall on the only person able to make his own choice. Thankfully that is not the God I serve but sin entering the world was a product of Adam's choice.
 
Moseme said:
Are you a part of the elect?
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When I stand before God to give an account, I will have nothing to offer as a defense other than the work accomplished by Christ in His death and resurrection. I am trusting He will be my righteousness, for I've got nothing to commend myself to a Most Holy God.

So do you think I'm part of the elect?

Why do you ask? Are you concerned for me?:)
 
Moseme said:
God would be responsible for creating me with this natural desire to sin. With to choices of my own the responsibility for those choices will fall on the only person able to make his own choice. Thankfully that is not the God I serve but sin entering the world was a product of Adam's choice.
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Was it beyond God's ability to create you with no desire to sin?
 
Hospes said:
When I stand before God to give an account, I will have nothing to offer as a defense other than the work accomplished by Christ in His death and resurrection. I am trusting He will be my righteousness, for I've got nothing to commend myself to a Most Holy God.
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Very well said.
*what a trade ... He gets my sin and I get His righteousness*

Aside: Calvinists think this gift is earned exclusively by the work of their saviour, protestant semi-pelagians belief Christ's work and the righteousness of their faith saved them.
 
Hospes said:
My apologies for not being more clear. My first question was rhetorical. (I assumed you would not know the majority of the people you present the Gospel would be saved.) If you will notice, the second question implies the first was rhetorical. The second question is not rhetorical, so it would be nice to hear your answer to it.
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Hospes said:
So you know a large majority of the people to whom you present the Gospel will be saved? What is the advantage of knowing everyone has the real potential to be saved all the while knowing that a large majority won't accept your message?
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The difference between Calvinists and non-Cs is not that most, or the large majority, of people will reject the gospel, the difference is you know that "the large majority" of people you are reaching out to with the gospel cannot possibly be saved, whereas I believe that even though "the large majority" will ultimately not accept the gospel and be lost, that is not the necessary ending. They didn't have to be lost; they could have been saved!

As a pastor, I can consciously talk to anyone with the assurance that they can be saved, that there are no impediments to preclude necessarily the potential of salvation. I work endlessly for person X to come to Christ because person X can actually be saved, and doesn't have to be lost! You cannot posit such a claim, but rather, if being intellectually honest, must admit that you know "the large majority" are irrevocably decreed to to be a snowball in you know where!

I am saddened that most will refuse to follow Christ, but I am emboldened by the fact that it doesn't have to be that way! That is an advantage to me as a preacher because I never have a thought that someone could not possibly be saved!

Doug
 
Hospes said:
I hear the same as you regarding there being sequence. So my question to my fellow Calvinists is the same as I posed to you: where in scripture is it made clear there is a sequence rather than salvation aspects occurring simultaneously? Honestly, I am not sure I understand why other Calvinists insist on the sequence they do.
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Does this mean you don’t know?


My question is simple.


Does believing result in salvation or does salvation result in believing?


The answer is equally simple.


Answer: Believing results in salvation.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31



If we can’t answer people who are seeking salvation, this simple question, then how will we lead them to Christ?



JLB
 
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