The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[GodsGrace]

Okay, Wondering, I will do my best to engage you, but let's move in small steps.

Let me first try to be sure I understand you. Will you give me your definition of "free will"?

Of course.
There is a philosophical definition of free will which states that we are not free to do everything.
For instance, we may want to fly but cannot.

This is NOT the free will spoken of in the bible.

The free will spoken of in the bible is the will God gave us, as He gave to Adam, to do what our moral conscience tells us to do.
Free will has to do with morality. We are free to choice between two choices with no interferance from the outside that is over-powering.

I say over-powering because a choice we make will always be INFLUENCED by something we have experienced --- even our knowledge of God
influences our choices: However, we are still free to do the morally incorrect act by our free choice to do so.

Biblically, this is known as libertarian free will.

Your turn.

 

[GodsGrace]

well just postulate this ,

some try to become meter readers ,they can't and are fired ,some try to become soldiers are get booted ,others try to teach ,they can't ,in all these cases ,some can .yet all willed they wanted to .

not all have the ability ,that's a limit .then there's those who have the desire to quit habits ,pray and they quit ,others die from that habit of if not a fatal one but a bad one with it ,that's a limit ,God sometimes allows that ,or our desires ,we aren't wanting to quit or do .with salvation I really don't see that any different .the offer is given and some just won't truly repent and be lost .we don't know .but God does .the longer I see my struggle with sin the more I see truth to the idea of total depravity and limited free will ,we by nature don't desire God .

Jason,
Please read my post to Hospes, no. 461.
What you describe above is not biblical free will.

 

[JLB]

Will you give me your definition of "free will"?

A will that has a degree of freedom to make a choice;
freedom of choice.



God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


Here are the two choices each born again Christian must choose to make —

1. eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
2. but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

The same two choices that are seen throughout the writings of the New Testament.

• Do good; obey Jesus Christ
• Do evil; obey unrighteousness (sin)

Jesus says it this way —


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29

1. those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
2. those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Eternal Life is given to those who obey Jesus Christ;
to those who believe and therefore obey Him.



JLB

 

[jasonc]

Jason,
Please read my post to Hospes, no. 461.
What you describe above is not biblical free will.

so a many can only choose God and reject him but not so with vocations ?

the reformed teach ,God desires all repent bit not all will .

 

[JLB]

the reformed teach ,God desires all repent bit not all will .

How can we assume to speak on behalf of what millions of people collectively believe?


The scriptures do indeed teach us that God desires all to come to repentance.

Most of the Calvinist’s I have discussed this with, seem to believe that “all” refers to the elect, and not all men in general.



JLB

 

[jasonc]

so a many can only choose God and reject him but not so with vocations ?

the reformed teach ,God desires all repent bit not all will .

adam had no sin ,nor was. he created with the natural inclination to sin.

the Arminism logical equivalent is that one can achieve sinless perfection ,and the Nazarene churches teaches that as did the Methodist .

we are not with that level of choice .

 

[jasonc]

How can we assume to speak on behalf of what millions of people collectively believe?


The scriptures do indeed teach us that God desires all to come to repentance.

Most of the Calvinist’s I have discussed this with, seem to believe that “all” refers to the elect, and not all men in general.



JLB

the Lord doesnt exist outside of time nor does he actually know who be isreal ?or the church.

I,know you before I made these.

God had ,and has to wait for us to do anything.?he is limited by time ?We have already lived,died and as a race and been judged in the eternity God exists .

once you see that part ,our view of will is limited .

God choose Only Abraham ,wasn't,there others he could have used on the earth ?

why not at first every nation of the 70?

yet only Abraham ,God went to .food for thought

 

[jasonc]

How can we assume to speak on behalf of what millions of people collectively believe?


The scriptures do indeed teach us that God desires all to come to repentance.

Most of the Calvinist’s I have discussed this with, seem to believe that “all” refers to the elect, and not all men in general.



JLB

I'm,not one ,not all in my church or posters maybe ,are 5 pointers .

Calvin wasn't a limited atonemement guy himself .he isn't quoted on this stuff.the westimister confession or the verses used to support that view .

 

[GodsGrace]

How can we assume to speak on behalf of what millions of people collectively believe?


The scriptures do indeed teach us that God desires all to come to repentance.

Most of the Calvinist’s I have discussed this with, seem to believe that “all” refers to the elect, and not all men in general.



JLB

JLB
I would like to say that we absolutely should be able to know what the reformed denomination believes.
Calvinism is a set theology taught in the Institutions of John Calvin.
It teaches that God chooses who will and will not be saved - based on nothing at all.

What causes confusion is that some call themselves calvinist but then have beliefs that are not common to Calvinism.
MAYBE Hospes is one of these...certainly Jason is since I know his beliefs.

Some churches are calvinist in theology but do not make an issue of it for fear of losing some of the congregation.
Some churches down south get a Calvinistic preacher/minister/pastor and after 2 or 3 years they've slowly corrupted the
beliefs of the prior church administrators.

This is untruthful and sad, but it does happen.

I do believe that one's denomination should be properly represented on these forums.
If I call myself Catholic....I should espouse Catholic theology.
If I call myself a Nazarene....I should espouse Nazarene theology.
And so on....
We may disagree on some point or other...but basically we should at least agree with the theology of the church we attend.

 

[GodsGrace]

adam had no sin ,nor was. he created with the natural inclination to sin.

the Arminism logical equivalent is that one can achieve sinless perfection ,and the Nazarene churches teaches that as did the Methodist .

we are not with that level of choice .

John Wesley believed we could attain total sanctification in this life.
That has now been rejected even by the Nazarene church because it's obvious that sinlessness is impossible.

 

[jasonc]

JLB
I would like to say that we absolutely should be able to know what the reformed denomination believes.
Calvinism is a set theology taught in the Institutions of John Calvin.
It teaches that God chooses who will and will not be saved - based on nothing at all.

What causes confusion is that some call themselves calvinist but then have beliefs that are not common to Calvinism.
MAYBE Hospes is one of these...certainly Jason is since I know his beliefs.

Some churches are calvinist in theology but do not make an issue of it for fear of losing some of the congregation.
Some churches down south get a Calvinistic preacher/minister/pastor and after 2 or 3 years they've slowly corrupted the
beliefs of the prior church administrators.

This is untruthful and sad, but it does happen.

I do believe that one's denomination should be properly represented on these forums.
If I call myself Catholic....I should espouse Catholic theology.
If I call myself a Nazarene....I should espouse Nazarene theology.
And so on....
We may disagree on some point or other...but basically we should at least agree with the theology of the church we attend.

using that argument .if you call yourself in Arminism wouldnt these be the points you aaccept ?

salvation can be gained and lost
i can become sinless
I am able to and I mist have works with faith and I'm able of my own to do that

I have been told that in church .

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm,not one ,not all in my church or posters maybe ,are 5 pointers .

Calvin wasn't a limited atonemement guy himself .he isn't quoted on this stuff.the westimister confession or the verses used to support that view .

Limited atonement makes sense for calvinist theology.
If God is picking who is saved...then Jesus would have died ONLY for those persons.
This is rejected by every denomination except the reformed denominations.

BTW,,,,if God is doing the choosing,,,WHY would it even be necessary for Jesus to have died at all???

 

[jasonc]

John Wesley believed we could attain total sanctification in this life.
That has now been rejected even by the Nazarene church because it's obvious that sinlessness is impossible.

no,locally one does teach that

 

[jasonc]

Limited atonement makes sense for calvinist theology.
If God is picking who is saved...then Jesus would have died ONLY for those persons.
This is rejected by every denomination except the reformed denominations.

BTW,,,,if God is doing the choosing,,,WHY would it even be necessary for Jesus to have died at all???

1.a person ,not even wesley taught this .must be at first ,so good that he can without God dying on the cross be able to saved ,or is drawn without the son to God and vice versa
2.God choose not to forgive Satan .if God can choose whom,to,forgive the, yes he can choose love too you want God to,judge Satan who also had freewill,and those angels and God judged them and yet not so with man ?

God choose to save man and not satan or those demons and both had the option .Satan desired to be God ,Adam ate the fruit on that same desire to be like God .

 

[jasonc]

covid 19,my own heart and the aactions of others have shown me that we don't have any Good in us .not worthy

 

[GodsGrace]

using that argument .if you call yourself in Arminism wouldnt these be the points you aaccept ?

salvation can be gained and lost
i can become sinless
I am able to and I mist have works with faith and I'm able of my own to do that

I have been told that in church .

I don't call myself an arminiun,,,I call myself a Christian.

But yes, the bible teaches that salvation is conditional on our belief in Jesus and our obedience to Him.
A person will not become sinless in this life. Do any of us know anyone that is sinless?
Works are a part of faith. Faith without works is a dead faith, as John stated, and as Jesus requested works from His followers.
Are we able to do this on our own?
We do this with the help of the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. God gives us the strength to do more than we would humanly be able to.
(although we all have our limit).

We're told many things in church.
I like to learn from what the N.T. writers believed.

 

[jasonc]

take away the cops and sny punishment

I don't call myself an arminiun,,,I call myself a Christian.

But yes, the bible teaches that salvation is conditional on our belief in Jesus and our obedience to Him.
A person will not become sinless in this life. Do any of us know anyone that is sinless?
Works are a part of faith. Faith without works is a dead faith, as John stated, and as Jesus requested works from His followers.
Are we able to do this on our own?
We do this with the help of the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. God gives us the strength to do more than we would humanly be able to.
(although we all have our limit).

We're told many things in church.
I like to learn from what the N.T. writers believed.

yet you might not but again churches do teach otherwise .

these exist .that's my,point .locally i know of both extremes .the oldest two churches here ,pre 1900 are those extremes .

Methodist and hypercalvinist .

 

[Hospes]

The free will spoken of in the bible is the will God gave us, as He gave to Adam, to do what our moral conscience tells us to do.
Free will has to do with morality. We are free to choice between two choices with no interferance from the outside that is over-powering.

I say over-powering because a choice we make will always be INFLUENCED by something we have experienced --- even our knowledge of God
influences our choices: However, we are still free to do the morally incorrect act by our free choice to do so.

Given what you have written above and my definitions below, would the following be an accurate definition of free will?

Free will is the ability for a person to autonomously provide the decisive moral willingness necessary for choosing between two or more choices?​

ability - power or capacity to do or act physically, mentally, legally, morally, financially, etc.
autonomous - not controlled by others or by outside forces; independent.
decisive - settling a matter or conflict
willingness - consent or readiness to do something
necessary - absolutely needed: required

 

[Hospes]

How can we assume to speak on behalf of what millions of people collectively believe?

The scriptures do indeed teach us that God desires all to come to repentance.

Most of the Calvinist’s I have discussed this with, seem to believe that “all” refers to the elect, and not all men in general

JLB, just to let you know, I have no hesitation in believing that God wills all to come to repentance. But I also believe that God, like us, has a hierarchy of wills.

I did not will to punish my son - I hated doing it - but I had a higher will that he grow to become a good man. My higher will overcame my lesser will, so I'd punish my son.

I suspect that most Christians would agree that if God's highest will was that all be saved, then all would be saved.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Given what you have written above and my definitions below, would the following be an accurate definition of free will?

Free will is the ability for a person to autonomously provide the decisive moral willingness necessary for choosing between two or more choices?
ability - power or capacity to do or act physically, mentally, legally, morally, financially, etc.
autonomous - not controlled by others or by outside forces; independent.
decisive - settling a matter or conflict
willingness - consent or readiness to do something
necessary - absolutely needed: required

I love your insisting on specificity ... so many arguments are based of misunderstanding

Anyways ...
Question:
How can one make an "autonomous" and "moral" decision unless the standard for morality is defined internally by the person making the decision. In other words, the decision can't be "autonomous" if my "morals" originate from another

*Ponders to himself* ... if I have an autonomous "free will" then I decide what is and isn't moral *hmmm* ... and later I can change what I feel is moral or immoral ... hmmm, sounds similar to "relativism" (the doctrine that knowledge, truth, and morality exist in relation to culture, society, or historical context, and are not absolute.)