There Is Only One Baptism With the Holy Spirit By Jesus Christ

[TruthSeeker2012]

I believe it's plain and simple for everyone to understand.

Further Peter is writing this letter to common people who are Gentiles as in 1Pet 1:1.

Do you believe every topic in Scripture is plain and simple for everyone to understand?

Let me ask you.. do you believe you have perfect interpretation and perfect understanding of the entire Scripture? Yes or No?

If yes, do you really claim to be perfectly infallible?

If no, then tell me..what part of Scripture have you misinterpreted and misunderstood?

If you don't know, then do you agree and admit you could be teaching an erroneous doctrine and not know it?

 

[felix]

Do you believe every topic in Scripture is plain and simple for everyone to understand?

No. not for everyone but all those who have His Word in them because the Holy Spirit will teach them.

Let me ask you.. do you believe you have perfect interpretation and perfect understanding of the entire Scripture? Yes or No?

If yes, do you really claim to be perfectly infallible?

Of course Yes! If I don't understand, then I don't have the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

• (John 14:26) "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
• (1John 2:27) But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

 

[cyberjosh]

No. not for everyone but all those who have His Word in them because the Holy Spirit will teach them.

Of course Yes! If I don't understand, then I don't have the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

• (John 14:26) "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
• (1John 2:27) But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Felix brings up an interesting point in that the words of Scripture were not meant to be difficult to understand nor are impossible to understand - as the Holy Spirit gives such an understanding to those who seek it. The hitch is we do not always listen and we often 'doctrinize' things with our intellect and in the process make things more complicated. Also not all the words out of our mouth are the Holy Spirit's words - and we can misrepresent the Truth that He testifies to us because sometimes we are not yet at a level to digest the full truth of a matter - which can lead to misapprehension (or partial apprehension) of a truth.

One often wonders why all the pressing questions we ask today about doctrine were not raised when the NT was written if it were so important and not at all clear on the matter (such as questions asked in the present topic at hand). Nonetheless that branches off into a much broader subject. I recommend sticking to topic to avoid derailing the thread.

~Josh

 

[Former Christian]

Cyberjosh

I'm with you. In Christianity, there is the keeping the unity of the Biblical interpretations, instead of the keeping the unity of the Spirit. As if one was the other.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Bonairos

“Last I recall (hence the update) you stated your position as a "former" Christian turned athiest.â€

Forgive me if that’s the impression I left you with. I’m assuming you’re referring to things I said when I first came here. My mind was a little chaotic when I first came here three months ago, having only recently realized that Christianity is a man-made religion. At that point I was trying to hold on to my belief in the only tangible item left to me, the Bible. I don’t look back at what I said in the past. It takes too much time, and how I understand and articulate things changes over time. And since I never look back, you’ll have to forgive me if I don’t remember who you are or what I said to give you that impression.

Here’s a leading question for you. How many baptisms do you believe in regarding those who are in Christ, in contradiction to Paul saying there’s only one baptism?

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Webb

Do you wish to start a thread that deals with “The Universal Church and the denominations of Christianity� If this forum frowns on talking about the RCC and JW’s, I would imagine the same holds true of CofC. Since each of these three denominations believes that they are uniquely the true expression of New Covenant belief and practice. And yet not all within each denomination has such an exclusive point of view. Division within denominations. How intriguing.


“God does not owe you, me or anyone else an explanation of ANIYTHING.â€

God gave us the Bible to explain things to us, gave us his Son to redeem us, gave us his Spirit so that Jesus through the Spirit might explain the things in the Bible and to help us understand our redemption. But your right. God didn’t have to. God didn’t give us those things because he owed us, which is what grace is all about.

FC

 

[Levi]

I believe it's plain and simple for everyone to understand.

Further Peter is writing this letter to common people who are Gentiles as in 1Pet 1:1.

People will misunderstand this one very easily, a good conscience toward God as the result of works as opposed to faith and in Jesus.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

..Of course Yes! If I don't understand, then I don't have the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

• (John 14:26) "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
• (1John 2:27) But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Felix, you have brought a lot of humour into my day lol In all due respect I am laughing so hard that my belly hurt hehehe.

You just CLAIMED that you have perfect interpretation and perfect understanding of the entire Scripture! In other words, you just claimed you are INFALLIBLE when it comes to God's Word! I have only ever known the Pope to make that claim before.

Felix, why don't you go and teach Bible Scholars what the Bible teaches, I am sure they will welcome you with open arms seeing you have perfect interpretation and perfect understanding of the entire Scripture!

And I have a question for you Felix. Do you believe that any Christian who has a DIFFERENT interpretation and DIFFERENT understanding of Scripture to you, that they are LOST and the verses John 14:26 and 1John 2:27 does not apply to them?

Seeing you believe you have perfect interpretation and perfect understanding of the entire Scripture, then it would reason that you believe that everyone who differs to you in their interpretation and understanding of Scripture is LOST and do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? YES OR NO?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Felix brings up an interesting point in that the words of Scripture were not meant to be difficult to understand nor are impossible to understand..

Hey Josh, explain that to the 10,000+ different denominations who those verses apply to WHY they teach so many different doctrines and why they do not all share the same INTERPRETATION and UNDERSTANDING of entire Scripture!

Do you also, like Felix, believe you have perfect interpretation and perfect understanding of the entire Scripture?

 

[cyberjosh]

Cyberjosh

I'm with you. In Christianity, there is the keeping the unity of the Biblical interpretations, instead of the keeping the unity of the Spirit. As if one was the other.

FC

I would also say that one should necessarily follow the other (ideally), and I'm sure you know the order in which that should happen in. ;) The problem is when you find yourself in a situation when you must try to fight your way out of one (perhaps due to your upbringing) just to discover the other - where our preconceptions actually form the barrier to truth. Things should not be so, but unfortunately are! Thus the struggle to discover the truth still continues amidst the cacophony of doctrines that abound. May the Holy Spirit help us where we can seldom help ourselves!

But to return to topic I did bring up a point about the passages in 1 Corinthians pointing to an unceasing and spiritual reality. No one has ventured to comment on it yet.

God Bless,
~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Hey Josh, explain that to the 10,000+ different denominations who those verses apply to WHY they teach so many different doctrines and why they do not all share the same INTERPRETATION and UNDERSTANDING of entire Scripture!

Let God be true, and every man a liar. I don't care about the mass confusion that we as Christians find ourselves in amidst all the denominations. The truth testified by the Holy Spirit is still as accessible as it was when the Spirit was given to the Church in the NT as her witness of Christ. Scripture is certainly not impossible to understand.

Do you also, like Felix, believe you have perfect interpretation and perfect understanding of the entire Scripture?

In a word, no. But do I know the truth that gives me eternal life? YES! And that was not by my doing I assure you. However I do know the source of truth and I believe sincere seeking yields true understanding.

God Bless,
~Josh

 

[Levi]

Felix brings up an interesting point in that the words of Scripture were not meant to be difficult to understand nor are impossible to understand - as the Holy Spirit gives such an understanding to those who seek it. The hitch is we do not always listen and we often 'doctrinize' things with our intellect and in the process make things more complicated. Also not all the words out of our mouth are the Holy Spirit's words - and we can misrepresent the Truth that He testifies to us because sometimes we are not yet at a level to digest the full truth of a matter - which can lead to misapprehension (or partial apprehension) of a truth.

There is one reason why I believe the truth is hidden in plain site and one reason why revelation comes in a graduating scale.

The Word is Holy and is the nature of God, man is the exact opposite therefore it is literally a different language, Jesus confirms this fact quite solidly here:

John 8

3 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

As we are born fallen then regenerated through being spiritually born again everyone must relearn everything he knows, this includes knowledge habits behavior etc..

Everyone learns at a different pace just as they would in the natural setting of education.

God reveals to us at a pace we can handle, I know from experience that it can be quite a mind blowing experience that can push a man to the very edge of sanity when the truth is revealed. Some find it impossible to accept!

I am still left to wonder in fearful awe when I am given revelation of the Holiness of God after nearly ten years.


But in terms of religion, disagreements and denominational disputes.

The danger of organized religion is that anyone can learn to recite and apply creeds and doctrines without actually knowing God at all. It's as I've heard some will say in catholic seminaries;

"there's good money in the God gig"

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

...In a word, no. But do I know the truth that gives me eternal life? YES! And that was not by my doing I assure you. However I do know the source of truth and I believe sincere seeking yields true understanding.
God Bless,
~Josh

Josh, you just openly and honestly admitted that you DO NOT have perfect interpretation and perfect understanding of the entire Scripture, so in other words, you have openly and honestly admitted that certain parts of Scripture you have MISINTERPRETED and MISUNDERSTOOD, so I have a question for you:

What part of Scripture have you misinterpreted and misunderstood?

And I like to ask you a second question. Do you believe you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in you seeing you believe you do NOT have perfect interpretation and perfect understanding of the entire Scripture? Because according to Felix and his opinion about those 2 verses, doesn't that mean you are lost and do not have the Holy Spirit guiding you?

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh, you just openly and honestly admitted that you DO NOT have perfect interpretation and perfect understanding of the entire Scripture, so in other words, you have openly and honestly admitted that certain parts of Scripture you have MISINTERPRETED and MISUNDERSTOOD, so I have a question for you:

What part of Scripture have you misinterpreted and misunderstood?

The amazing part of being a Christian is that even if the understanding of a doctrine is not clearly articulated in your understanding (if you are fuzzy on connecting the dots between different teachings) the Spirit will inwardly testify (not necessarily with words) whether or not you have the correct (or a complete) understanding of it (you will know when you are lacking - see James 1:5). I can sense when I have not completely grasped the truth of something, even if I understand portions of it. That is part of spiritually maturing in our understanding throughout our life and Christian walk - God reveals new things to us over time, but our ability to correctly judge its truthfulness when revealed is entirely of the Holy Spirit!

When I came to true understanding for the first time ever of what sanctification really was (as being set apart from the world and sin by the in-working power of Christ and the Holy Spirit) an amazing revelation, confirmation, and freedom of spirit rested on me when I understood. Until such a similar confirmation is given even in the non-essential doctrines (ex: Is it sinful for men to have long hair? Can a believer fall away from the faith?) we may come to realize that we may not have infallible interpretation but nonetheless can give our best Scriptural presentation of a subject as faithfully as we are able with our current level of comprehension. Even Paul gave his opinion & advice a few times in Scripture.

Not to mention, those new in the faith do not even know of all Biblical doctrine until they have read the Bible and considered all its words (also compare biblical 'milk' and 'meat') - yet the Holy Spirit is there to confirm their understanding of it as they learn and hear of the truths in the Word. That is about as far as I am willing to venture an answer to your question. It all comes back to the Holy Spirit - he confirms or denies our understandings of Scripture.

 

[cyberjosh]

And I like to ask you a second question. Do you believe you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in you seeing you believe you do NOT have perfect interpretation and perfect understanding of the entire Scripture? Because according to Felix and his opinion about those 2 verses, doesn't that mean you are lost and do not have the Holy Spirit guiding you?

Yes, I am indwelt for the Spirit testifies with my Spirit that I am a son of God (which is an internal evidence to the believer - the external evidence to others being the fruit which you bear). As I have said, not even when we first believe do we have perfect understanding - though we are offered all those riches in Christ of perfect knowledge. Felix was right to point out the Apostle John's point that we are anointed of the Spirit and have no need for others to tell us the truth for it is all offered by the Spirit if we ask (which does not rule out human ministry and teaching which God has ordained - rather that the Holy Spirit is our absolute standard and teacher). Paul in fact said no one taught him the Gospel except God while he was in Arabia for three years, so certainly it is possible to be solely instructed of the Spirit - though as I said human ministry plays its God-ordained role.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

...the Apostle John's point that we are anointed of the Spirit and have no need for others to tell us the truth for it is all offered by the Spirit if we ask...

If that is correct, then why do we have 10,000+ different Christian denominations and millions of Christians who come to different interpretations and understandings of Scripture?

Do you have an answer for that Josh?

 

[cyberjosh]

God reveals to us at a pace we can handle, I know from experience that it can be quite a mind blowing experience that can push a man to the very edge of sanity when the truth is revealed. Some find it impossible to accept!

You got it brother! God definitely meets us where we are at in our understanding and according to what we can bear (John 16:12). It would be nice if we all got a Holy Spirit knowledge download into our intellect and mind so that it was instantly transformed in every aspect of knowledge and understanding to Christ - but that is not God's way. We rather are given that responsibility of putting on the New Man so that we can have our mind transformed daily. Nor, as you point out, could we handle it in such a proportion when we are not ready.

I am still left to wonder in fearful awe when I am given revelation of the Holiness of God after nearly ten years.

Indeed, God still works on us yet! And thank God for it!

God Bless,
~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

If that is correct, then why do we have 10,000+ different Christian denominations and millions of Christians who come to different interpretations and understandings of Scripture?

Do you have an answer for that Josh?

For crying out loud, go ask the Pope! :D

 

[cyberjosh]

If that is correct, then why do we have 10,000+ different Christian denominations and millions of Christians who come to different interpretations and understandings of Scripture?

Do you have an answer for that Josh?

For a more serious reply, how would you rather interpret the verses that Felix pointed out in 1 John? John did not lie to us. It's time you started giving some answers of your own - to be fair and so this is not a one sided conversation.

Edit: P.S. Also, did I mention that false teachers abound and often can turn 'believers' away from the truth of the Holy Spirit, and that Satan is no less active in seeking to destroy the Church (even disguising himself as an Angel of Light)? Confusion of denominations is not God's doing but man's and Satan's (the same deadly combination as in the Garden). Why else did both Paul and Peter urge us not to be deceived by false doctrines? The Spirit is there to testify to us but that says nothing of our ability to still be deceived if we allow it. But we are not left powerless against such spiritual deception for we have weapons and defenses of the Spirit - Ephesians 6. Those slack in employing that spiritual equipment are to blame if they are deceived. But not all are deceived, some yet are only still in the 'milk' of the word and have not yet come to a fuller understanding of God's truths. It seems hopeless though (short of Christ's return) to collapse the 10,000 denominations you mentioned back into 1 unified Church (externally speaking) - but the true Spiritual Church still yet exists and is confined to no denomination. We should be able to tell by one's fruit whether or not they are part of that unified Church in the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13).

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

For a more serious reply, how would you rather interpret the verses that Felix pointed out in 1 John? John did not lie to us. It's time you started giving some answers of your own - to be fair and so this is not a one sided conversation.

I don't have any concrete answers Josh, hence I am asking Christians. But I do know that Felix cannot be correct, because if those verses are to be interpreted as Felix claims, then ALL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS would come to the exact same interpretation and understanding of the entire Scripture! And that would also mean that anyone who has a different interpetation and understanding of Scripture to Felix, that they ARE LOST and only Felix and people who share his exact interpretation and understanding of entire Scripture are saved and everyone else is lost... and that would mean we cannot be saved by faith and grace alone, we also need PERFECT INTERPRETATION AND PERFECT UNDERSTANDING OF ENTIRE BIBLE THAT ALIGNS WITH FELIX TO BE SAVED!

To me that makes NO SENSE at all and sounds deceptive and misleading!