Three person God identified in the Bible?

[Cooper]

 

[Randy]

He is eternally begotten. If he is God, and he is, then he necessarily has always existed, as that is an attribute of God. If there was a time when he did not exist, then he is not God and is the literal firstborn of creation, the first created thing. But that would contradict John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17.

GOD in this context Col 1:19 for all of the Deity of God would dwell in Him. The "image" of the invisible God.

As Jesus states=>
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work

 

[Randy]

Again, Christ has 2 natures (the Word became flesh John 1:14) ...divine and human. His divine nature is CO-ETERNAL.


Agreed. Not in the sense that we understand "Father". God is transcendent and often speaks in analogies to compensate for us being 'dummies'.
Best explanation I've heard is:
The Son is eternally begotten (eternally generated) by the Father. The Father is begotten by no one. It had no beginning, it will have no ending. It has always been. C. S. Lewis likened it to a book that is lying on top of another. We say the top book owes its position to the bottom one. It wouldn't be where it is without the one on the bottom. Now, if you can, imagine this relationship as always having been. There never was a time when the top book was not where it was, never a time when the bottom book was alone. This is what we mean when we speak of the Father begetting the Son. The relationship of the first person of the Trinity to the second person is that of begetting.
Begotten – from Greek monogenes meaning "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind." This is the meaning that is implied in John 3:16 (see also John 1:14, 18; 3:18; 1 John 4:9).

Christ was begotten in eternity in a unique way that did not involve being made. Christ is uniquely begotten, not in time as a creature, but eternally as the Son of God. John indicates this by saying that the Logos “was with God” and “was God” at the beginning (John 1:1). If the Logos, the second person of the Trinity, is eternally begotten by the Father, then there never was a time when Christ was not begotten of the Father. The second person of the Trinity has an eternal relationship of sonship with the Father. R.C. Sproul Truths We Confess

... that's my 'stab at it' .... how does one understand/explain all aspects of a transcendent, infinite God?

The Son who was, His spirit, was in the body God prepared for Him. He stated it was the Father was living in Him doing "His" work.

Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for a little while.

 

[Randy]

He is eternally begotten. If he is God, and he is, then he necessarily has always existed, as that is an attribute of God. If there was a time when he did not exist, then he is not God and is the literal firstborn of creation, the first created thing. But that would contradict John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17.

Correct He is not the only unbegotten God rather He is the only begotten "Son".
A Son "in" whom lives all the fullness of Gods Deity. When you see the Son you see His Father. Hebrews 1:3 defines that Son. Such a Son is all that the Father is as its the Fathers fullness that dwells in Him.
This was not a mistake Col 1:19 and it was from the will of another. One who defined "Jesus's" being. The only other at that point in history was the Father. The very one the Son calls His God and Father and the only true God

 

[Cooper]

Correct He is not the only unbegotten God rather He is the only begotten "Son".
A Son "in" whom lives all the fullness of Gods Deity. When you see the Son you see His Father. Hebrews 1:3 defines that Son. Such a Son is all that the Father is as its the Fathers fullness that dwells in Him.
This was not a mistake Col 1:19 and it was from the will of another. One who defined "Jesus's" being. The only other at that point in history was the Father. The very one the Son calls His God and Father and the only true God

Don't forget, the pre-incarnate Jesus has always existed as the Word (God) prior to Mary giving birth.

Jesus is fully God and fully man.
.

 

[JaneH]

While I wholly accept the Trinity, since greater minds than mine have worked this out, I still struggle with the fact that Jesus prayed to God to "take this cup" and release him from the coming crucifixion. So if Jesus is God, to whom did he pray? And why did he say the Holy Spirit would come once he was gone? I'm not saying I don't believe, just that I find these questions are troubling. I don't waste a lot of time worrying about it.

 

[Free]

The ONE Almighty God is "all in all."

If you want to say the Son is not the Father, not this and not that, go ahead, but that is a denial of God's greatness, and you will not see me saying it.

It is a denial of nothing. It is the biblical position as it best takes into account all that God reveals about himself. One can only say the Son is the Father through ignoring the plain use of language and denying grammar and logic.

Remember, "God is One" and God cannot be divided against himself. Read 1 John 2:23.

Again, there is not a single verse in the Bible that clearly or directly shows that God is an absolute unity.

1 John 2:23 says absolutely nothing about the nature of God. It simply means, as Jesus said, that no one can come to the Father except through him. Notice that John, I’m keeping with the reset of the entire NT, keeps the Father and Son distinct. I suggest you read 1 John 1:1-2.

What do you think Jesus was saying when he said, "If you had known the Father, you would have known me." And what else did Jesus go on to say in John 8:39-44?
.

Well, let's look at more context:

Joh 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
Joh 8:25 So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning?
Joh 8:26 "I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."
Joh 8:27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father.
Joh 8:28 So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
Joh 8:29 "And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him." (NASB)

So, on the one hand we see that Jesus is claiming to be God, to be I Am. On the other hand, he also says the Father sent him and taught him and lives to please him, which means that Jesus isn't the Father. Those same ideas are then repeated in verses 39-42:

Joh 8:39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did,
Joh 8:40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.
Joh 8:41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.”
Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. (ESV)

Language such as this cannot make it any clearer that Jesus isn't the Father. It he was, then Jesus would be either lying or just speaking nonsense and communicating nothing to us.

Now, moving on to John 14:7 and its context:

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Joh 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. (ESV)

That is what Jesus means--he is in the Father and the Father is in him. What it does not and cannot mean is that Jesus is the Father, unless, again, we ignore all common sense use of language, grammar, and logic.

 

[Free]

While I wholly accept the Trinity, since greater minds than mine have worked this out, I still struggle with the fact that Jesus prayed to God to "take this cup" and release him from the coming crucifixion. So if Jesus is God, to whom did he pray? And why did he say the Holy Spirit would come once he was gone? I'm not saying I don't believe, just that I find these questions are troubling. I don't waste a lot of time worrying about it.

Jesus prayed to the first person of the Trinity, the Father. Jesus was both truly God and truly man. The Holy Spirit is the way in which all three persons come to dwell in believers, particularly Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We need the Holy Spirit to guide and direct us, to convict us of sin, to help us walk the way should walk as followers of Christ, and to help sanctify us.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The Son who was, His spirit, was in the body God prepared for Him. He stated it was the Father was living in Him doing "His" work.

Sounds about right. The devil is in the details (pun intended) on the topic of the Trinity.

Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for a little while.

This would refer to the human nature of Christ and Heb. 2:6-8 indeed uses the term "son of man" and not "Son of God".

 

[Free]

GOD in this context Col 1:19 for all of the Deity of God would dwell in Him. The "image" of the invisible God.

As Jesus states=>
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work

Which isn't my point. My point is that if by the Son, "all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him," and "he is before all things," then the only logical conclusion is that he is not a created thing. So, if there was a time when the Son did not exist, then Col 1:16-17 are false. Very simple logic.

 

[Randy]

Which isn't my point. My point is that if by the Son, "all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him," and "he is before all things," then the only logical conclusion is that he is not a created thing. So, if there was a time when the Son did not exist, then Col 1:16-17 are false. Very simple logic.

By the Son God spoke to us in these last days.
Rather it was the Father living in Jesus doing "His" work.

For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

Likewise in stating everything was created through Jesus does not mean His own spirit which is the beginning of the creation of the Father. Rev 3:14 Jesus is before all things as He has that supremacy. As well as firstborn from the dead. All those things He is before were created through Him. This is far more reasonable/understandable then to state begotten of the Father before all worlds but not made.


You speak of logic? Coeternal beings can not be a Son with a Father.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So if Jesus is God, to whom did he pray?

Jesus has 2 natures. He is fully man and fully God; He's the "son of man" and the "Son of God". When ever Christ prays He must be praying via his human nature IMO because the Divine Nature of Christ and the Father and the Spirit are one. The members of the Trinity don't think different thoughts or know separate things; so there is no need to communicate amongst themselves. The human nature of Christ gets weary, is emotional and does not know all things (He didn't know the timing of His 2nd coming for example) and therefore would require some form of communication.
There is a verse saying Christ at that time prayed aloud for our educational benefit of those around him.
Hmmmm ... I suppose Christ's human nature prays to all 3 members of the Trinity .... hmmmm, His human nature prays to His Divine nature I suppose (talking to himself sort-of *giggle*, and the rest of the Trinity.

And why did he say the Holy Spirit would come once he was gone?

John 16:8 But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

For our benefit seems to be one reason. The billions of benefits would be a subset of the whole. Probably others reasons depending on how deep into the reeds you want to get.

 

[Randy]

Don't forget, the pre-incarnate Jesus has always existed as the Word (God) prior to Mary giving birth.

Jesus is fully God and fully man.
.

Others have tried in vane to get you to see the "only begotten Son" was with God in the beginning. It was He, His spirit, who was in the body God prepared for Him.

 

[Free]

By the Son God spoke to us in these last days.
Rather it was the Father living in Jesus doing "His" work.

Sure, but none of that means that the Son hasn't always existed, and it doesn't address Col 1:16-17. Again, the logic is very simple and fully agrees with John 1:1-3 and 1 Cor 8:6.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The eternal Son of God (aside: not the Son of Man)

1. Christ is God, hence His pre-existence
2. Christ is the Creator, hence His pre-existence
3. Christ is a party to the before-time covenant, hence His pre-existence Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began
4. The Old Testament anticipation of Messiah which Christ answered is that of Jehovah God hence He pre-existed
5. The Angel of Jehovah, hence His pre-existence (see The Angel of God)
6. Indirect and direct Biblical assertions declare Christ to have pre-existed.

• John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. … 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
• John 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”)
• John 1:18 No one has seen God [His essence, His divine nature] at any time; the [One and] only begotten (eternally generated) God [that is, the unique Son] who is in the intimate presence of the Father, He has explained Him [and interpreted and revealed the awesome wonder of the Father].
• John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
• John 3:31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.
• John 5:23 that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.
• John 9:30 I and the Father are one.
• John 20:28 Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God!
• John 6:31, 38, 41, 50, 51, 58, 62 – Sevenfold declaration by Christ that He “came down from heaven.”
• Philippians 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped

author unknown

 

[jaybo]

Jesus prayed to the first person of the Trinity, the Father. Jesus was both truly God and truly man. The Holy Spirit is the way in which all three persons come to dwell in believers, particularly Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We need the Holy Spirit to guide and direct us, to convict us of sin, to help us walk the way should walk as followers of Christ, and to help sanctify us.

Where in the Bible does it say that all three persons dwell in believers? (Which you immediately contradict by saying "particularly" Jesus and the Holy Spirit).

 

[Fastfredy0]

Where in the Bible does it say that all three persons dwell in believers?

Do I get partial credit for getting 2 of 3 ????

 

[Cooper]

Others have tried in vane to get you to see the "only begotten Son" was with God in the beginning. It was He, His spirit, who was in the body God prepared for Him.

Did they, it must have been the way they said it. By the way, there is an i in vain.

Perhaps they should have said it was the Holy Spirit who was in the body prepared for him?

I'm inclined to think that in the beginning it was the Holy Spirit who was the "Word" and it was the Holy Spirit in Mary and it was the Holy Spirit aka the Father who was in Jesus. See what you think. May God bless your meditations.
.

 

[jaybo]

Do I get partial credit for getting 2 of 3 ????

You don't get any credit, as my post was directed at Free.

 

[Free]

Where in the Bible does it say that all three persons dwell in believers? (Which you immediately contradict by saying "particularly" Jesus and the Holy Spirit).

There is no contradiction. The Bible speaks of the indwelling of the Trinity, and of the Trinity and dealings with humans, with nuances that we must recognize.

Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. (ESV)

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (ESV)

For example, while it was the Son, the second "person" of the Trinity that took on human flesh, yet, the Father was in him and he in the Father, while he was also filled with the Holy Spirit (Luk 4:1). Similarly, while the Holy Spirit is the primary one that indwells believers, the union of the three persons is such that the Father and Son also indwell believers.

This kind of goes back to Fastfredy0's earlier post: https://christianforums.net/threads...tified-in-the-bible.2858/page-51#post-1763375