Tongues, initial evidence of one having the Holy Spirit

[FightingAtheism]

Mark my words, this is my last post on tongues. I have stuck around too long as it is. I will spend my valulable time with something better. If you feel you have won this debate, feel free to march around town celebrating.

I'm not here to win debates, I have no pride whatsoever behind this. I'm here to discuss this important topic to be one in understanding as Jesus Christ wants us. :amen

May God's blessings be with you, farewell.

 

[FightingAtheism]

Thankyou lovely. I have read the article and I have read many other articles concerning the topic of speaking with tongues. So please don't expect me to give an answer for everytime a person refers to me an article. It would be far better if you just write your own response (don't make it to long, as I don't have the desire to read long posts), then I would be happy to give you an answer. I hope you understand me. :gah

God bless.

 

[animal]

When speaking in tongues why aren't children as creative as adults? They're not good at it at all.. It's almost like they're just making it up as they go along.

 

[FightingAtheism]

When speaking in tongues why aren't children as creative as adults? They're not good at it at all.. It's almost like they're just making it up as they go along.

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co.14:15)

When you pray with tongues, you don't use your mind, your spirit is praying. You don't make it up, you don't have control over it, it's like a river that flows out of your mouth when you give it the signal. It edifies you, which means that it builds you up in the spirit(1 Cor.14:4). It's the feeling that is unexplainable.

 

[animal]

Ok well anyway. Compare a child and an adults "river". They're really not that good at it.

Despite what scripture might say about an 8 year old closing his or her eyes and saying "shalal lalahahla laha" it's pretty obvious they're making it up as they go along.

I mean adults are making it up also but they usually throw in a couple more vowels and some c and sh sounds. This isn't my point though. (essentially it is but whatever) I'm not talking about whether or not this is actually your "spirit" talking. This is about how different a childs "tongues" sounds compared to an adults. They're not very creative.

 

[FightingAtheism]

Here's the deal folks. Paul tried to 'set straight' the truth behind 'tongues' as offered up BY The Spirit. One, two, no more than THREE in a 'gathering'. And BY COURSE, (in order). There MUST be an interpreter. Women are NOT ABLE to speak in 'tongues' IN a GATHERING. And the most important issue concerning the USE of 'tongues'. They are ONLY able to BE uttered AS The Spirit GIVES utterance. Tongues are FOR A SIGN. NOT for 'them that believe, but for them that BELIEVE NOT'. Now, IF 'tongues' do NOT conform to what is offered here, then they CANNOT be 'TRUE tongues'. Either what I offer is TRUTH, or Paul was a LIAR. So, for those that insist upon inane gibberish BEING tongues. And those that INSIST that women CAN speak them in 'the Chruch'. Or those that believe that they can ALL speak at ONCE or WITHOUT an 'interpreter', you have CHOSEN to believe in something that is NOT Offered THROUGH The Spirit. It's really THAT SIMPLE.

The pattern was only when tongues is meant to be interpreted. The pattern did not apply when you pray with tongues, because any kind of prayer is private because you don't speak unto man. Praying in tongues does not cause confusion, speaking in tongues unto man when there's no interpreter.

To sum it up, the interpretation of 1 Corinthians 14:

In this chapter Paul is given the Corinthians the correct pattern of speaking with tongues. The Corinthians, as new Christians, were misusing the ability to speak with tongues. As we know, tongues cannot be understood, so the Corinthians were speaking with tongues unto men when there was no interpreter. So because of this, Paul told them that when there's no interpreter, let him speak unto God (v28). Basically, Paul is telling them that the church wont receive edification when you speak in an unknown tongue unto men, because no men understands him (v2). In this case, for the whole church to receive edification, Paul wants them to prophesy (v5), or at least have an interpreter.

(Please keep in mind that Paul was not against praying with tongues, he was against people speaking with tongues unto men when there's no interpreter.)

To the rest of the post, I have no desire to answer, as it would be just repeats and repeats.

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co.14:14,15)

You have the Holy Spirit, but you don't have the ability to pray in the spirit? This issue is the most that bugs me. God gave the utterance for everyone with the Holy Spirit to pray in the Spirit, to pray with tongues. What is the purpose to pray in the spirit, to pray with tongues?:

Tongues to be a sign for unbelievers is not the purpose of tongues. It would just be a sign, just as me breathing is a sign that I'm alive, but not the purpose of me being alive. It is not a sign to the believers because the believers take it as ordinary. It is a sign to the unbelievers because it is something new, something not ordinary. But let me explain the purpose of speaking with tongues.

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

At this moment, the tongue speaker is speaking mysteries in the spirit. He can be praying for someone or something he doesn't know about. As you can see, this is a good ability that every Christian with the Holy Spirit to have. As it is the Holy Spirit praying through you. For ex., there was a situation when this person was in a car accident. So at this time, something told the father of the person to start praying. So the father started praying with tongues. Then about a minute later he got a phone call that his son had just got in a car accident. Thank God everything was alright with him. This is just an example for the purpose of praying with tongues.

 

[FightingAtheism]

Ok well anyway. Compare a child and an adults "river". They're really not that good at it.

Despite what scripture might say about an 8 year old closing his or her eyes and saying "shalal lalahahla laha" it's pretty obvious they're making it up as they go along.

I mean adults are making it up also but they usually throw in a couple more vowels and some c and sh sounds. This isn't my point though. (essentially it is but whatever) I'm not talking about whether or not this is actually your "spirit" talking. This is about how different a childs "tongues" sounds compared to an adults. They're not very creative.

You sure don't know what you are talking about. I have witnessed children at age 6 -15 being baptized with the Holy Spirit, including me at age 11. The utterance that the Spirit gives them is quite intelligent. It would be very hard to fake it, especially praying for about an hour non-stop, sometimes even 2-3. Anyways, it is not the tongues that is impressive, it is the feeling that you get in that prayer. "He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. (1Co.14:4)" Praying in the spirit (tongues) edifies you, builds up the spirit inside you, charges up the spirit inside, you are being filled with the Holy Spirit. It's a feeling that is unexplainable.

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

 

[animal]

I believe I've heard enough children and adults speaking in "tongues" to be able to make this comparison. If you can point me towards a video of a young child truly "filled with the Holy Spirit" I'd like to see it.

 

[lovely]

FightingAtheism,

I read you reply, and there was no response needed...just wanted to give a full account of the Word to you for the sake of Christ.

lovely

 

[Rocksolid]

I believe I've heard enough children and adults speaking in "tongues" to be able to make this comparison. If you can point me towards a video of a young child truly "filled with the Holy Spirit" I'd like to see it.

I'd like to see that too. The videos of adults (easy to find on youtube) are far from convincing. Maybe the Holy Spirit chooses to produce gibberish (a few sounds or syllables repeated over and over) when anyone is recording? That's not acceptable.

There is no more need for tongues. All public tongues is to be understood by someone. The disciples would have been greatly handicapped if they had to learn dozens languages on short notice. But, we have plenty of ability to translate today. The first century Christians didn't have a New Testament, so they needed revelation. Imagine trying to be a Christian without a New Testament. Today, if someone ever tells you that God has revealed new doctrine or prophesy to him, run for it because you've just met someone who wants to be a cult leader.

The gift of tongues is a poisoned well. If anyone could speak in tongues, he'd be discrediting himself by telling others.

 

[FightingAtheism]

I believe I've heard enough children and adults speaking in "tongues" to be able to make this comparison. If you can point me towards a video of a young child truly "filled with the Holy Spirit" I'd like to see it.

I'd like to see that too. The videos of adults (easy to find on youtube) are far from convincing. Maybe the Holy Spirit chooses to produce gibberish (a few sounds or syllables repeated over and over) when anyone is recording? That's not acceptable.

There is no more need for tongues. All public tongues is to be understood by someone. The disciples would have been greatly handicapped if they had to learn dozens languages on short notice. But, we have plenty of ability to translate today. The first century Christians didn't have a New Testament, so they needed revelation. Imagine trying to be a Christian without a New Testament. Today, if someone ever tells you that God has revealed new doctrine or prophesy to him, run for it because you've just met someone who wants to be a cult leader.

The gift of tongues is a poisoned well. If anyone could speak in tongues, he'd be discrediting himself by telling others.

Tongues to be a sign for unbelievers is not the purpose of tongues. It would just be a sign, just as me breathing is a sign that I'm alive, but not the purpose of me being alive. It is not a sign to the believers because the believers take it as ordinary. It is a sign to the unbelievers because it is something new, something not ordinary. But let me explain the purpose of speaking with tongues.

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

At this moment, the tongue speaker is speaking mysteries in the spirit. He can be praying for someone or something he doesn't know about. As you can see, this is a good ability that every Christian with the Holy Spirit to have. As it is the Holy Spirit praying through you. For ex., there was a situation when this person was in a car accident. So at this time, something told the father of the person to start praying. So the father started praying with tongues. Then about a minute later he got a phone call that his son had just got in a car accident. Thank God everything was alright with him. This is just an example for the purpose of praying with tongues.

 

[Rocksolid]

Here are two youtube video links. One of Benny Hinn, a master showman with years of tongues experience, speaking in tongues. The other of a man giving a lecture in the Farsi language (a language most of you would be highly unfamiliar with).

Notice Hinn's speaking is with highly repetitive sounds and syllables, with a lot of hard consonants (like the "pa" sound) and a tongue rolling sound (short of a clicking sound). This is all highly characteristic of gibberish. Notice in a real language how little redundancy there is and how the speaker flows from word to word and sentence to sentence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfOBbhTMfLw&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJvK5jvlb9A

Also notice that Hinn is violating the Bible's instruction against speaking in tongues if there's no interpreter. Also, notice the mood music.

 

[animal]

At this moment, the tongue speaker is speaking mysteries in the spirit. He can be praying for someone or something he doesn't know about. As you can see, this is a good ability that every Christian with the Holy Spirit to have. As it is the Holy Spirit praying through you. For ex., there was a situation when this person was in a car accident. So at this time, something told the father of the person to start praying. So the father started praying with tongues. Then about a minute later he got a phone call that his son had just got in a car accident. Thank God everything was alright with him. This is just an example for the purpose of praying with tongues.

I still don't see the purpose of the gibberish. How is this any different than silent prayer? How is this any different than no prayer at all? What does speaking in tongues have to do with the man believing he was psychic?

 

[n2thelight]

FightingAtheism

If speaking in tongues is speaking in earthly languages, then why does the Bible mention the gift of interpretation (1 Cor. 12)? And 1 Cor 12:2,14,15 would clearly contradict.

Anyways, here's a clear definition of tongues:

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co.14:14,15)

Don't see the connection in 1 Co 12,so let's look at the definition you provided.

I Corinthians 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

"Mysteries" as given in the Greek text is "divine secrets"; so why would he be speaking in divine secrets? Note also that the word "unknown" was added by the translators for it just wasn't there in the early manuscripts.

Corinthians 14:4 "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifeth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."

If I went to a foreign land and taught this chapter in English, where no one knows the English language, the only one that would be built up by what I said would be me. However, if I went to a church that spoke English and taught in the English, the entire church would be edified or built up by those same words. If you are truly teaching the Word of God to the body of Christ and speaking in their language, then they would gain from what you would say.

One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is to be able to learn another tongue or language than you were brought up with, so that you can teach someone who is not of your language

I Corinthians 14:5 "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying."

Paul is saying that he wished that all of his brethren there in Corinth could speak in as many languages as I can speak. However, I would rather that you would be gifted teachers in the Word of God, then to speak in many languages and not be able to teach. In other words, if someone that teaches under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit desires to teach in another tongue, do it with the same emotion, devotion and love that you would in your native tongue. If you cannot do this, then find an interpreter that is also filled with the Spirit of God, and have him interpret so that the church may receive the edifying when they hear you. The whole point that Paul is saying here is that if you can't be understood, then you will not be doing much good. It is just plain common sense.

So what is the subject here, what are you saying? The subject is stated in verse twelve also, for it is taking for the gifts of teachering, evangelist, faith, and all the other gifts that take forth the gospel of Jesus Christ to the lost.


I Corinthians 14:6 "Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?"

Paul is saying that if I come to you with great revelations and knowledge speaking in a in a language that that you do not understand, what will it profit you? Of course if you cannot understand what is being said in that foreign tongue, it will be nothing more than a turkey call. You wouldn't know if it was prophesying, doctrine, or knowledge.

I Corinthians 14:13 "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret."

Let him that speaks in an unnatural language pray that what he says will be interpreted properly. Before you go to speak to foreigners, pray that God will give you the understanding of that language before you go. If you go without this preparation, you are wasting your time.

I Corinthians 14:14 "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."

If you pray in a language that your mind doesn't understand, then of what benefit is your prayer. You uttered words that mean nothing, and have created nothing but noise. When you pray to the Father, know exactly who you are praying to and for what purpose. However if you are just muttering words and sounds that have no meaning, your prayer is in vain. In short, you have to be able to communicate, before people know what you are saying. Remember that this chapter is dealing with teaching those that are foreigners to you, and those that do not speak your language. The ability to communicate is a gift from God.

http://www.theseason.org/1corin/1corin14.htm

There is nothing unknown when the Holy Spirit speaks through you

 

[follower of Christ]

For ex., there was a situation when this person was in a car accident. So at this time, something told the father of the person to start praying. So the father started praying with tongues. Then about a minute later he got a phone call that his son had just got in a car accident. Thank God everything was alright with him. This is just an example for the purpose of praying with tongues.

This sounds like one of those stories passed around in evangelical groups to make everyone feel good about whatever the point is.
Most of these stories are entirely made up when any digging is done.

Not that God cant do anything He wants, but its just very convenient when the story presented seems to be just about proving a point.

 

[FightingAtheism]

At this moment, the tongue speaker is speaking mysteries in the spirit. He can be praying for someone or something he doesn't know about. As you can see, this is a good ability that every Christian with the Holy Spirit to have. As it is the Holy Spirit praying through you. For ex., there was a situation when this person was in a car accident. So at this time, something told the father of the person to start praying. So the father started praying with tongues. Then about a minute later he got a phone call that his son had just got in a car accident. Thank God everything was alright with him. This is just an example for the purpose of praying with tongues.

I still don't see the purpose of the gibberish. How is this any different than silent prayer? How is this any different than no prayer at all? What does speaking in tongues have to do with the man believing he was psychic?

This is no gibberish, any language that you don't know will sound gibberish.

 

[Imagican]

Since God KNOWS what's in OUR hearts, there is NO NEED for ANY 'special language' in order to SPEAK to Him.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[animal]

This is no gibberish, any language that you don't know will sound gibberish.

It isn't a language! It has no syntax, it has no meaning, the phonology is nothing but noise and there is no systematic pattern that could make it communicative. It's random gibberish and I still think children are terrible at it! God doesn't need you to blab outloud incoherently.

Also, if it were a language two people who had this embarrassing power of the holy spirit would be able to understand and possibly communicate with one another.

yes I know "language of God" blah blah.. There's no way any of this is going to convince you.

 

[FightingAtheism]

This is no gibberish, any language that you don't know will sound gibberish.

It isn't a language! It has no syntax, it has no meaning, the phonology is nothing but noise and there is no systematic pattern that could make it communicative. It's random gibberish and I still think children are terrible at it! God doesn't need you to blab outloud incoherently.

Also, if it were a language two people who had this embarrassing power of the holy spirit would be able to understand and possibly communicate with one another.

yes I know "language of God" blah blah.. There's no way any of this is going to convince you.

You are ignorant of the Holy Bible. Use an open mind, and look at the verses that I have provided.

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co.14:14,15)

And once again:

At this moment, the tongue speaker is speaking mysteries in the spirit. He can be praying for someone or something he doesn't know about. As you can see, this is a good ability that every Christian with the Holy Spirit to have. As it is the Holy Spirit praying through you. For ex., there was a situation when this person was in a car accident. So at this time, something told the father of the person to start praying. So the father started praying with tongues. Then about a minute later he got a phone call that his son had just got in a car accident. Thank God everything was alright with him. This is just an example for the purpose of praying with tongues.

 

[animal]

Scripture is not evidence of anything. Certainly not this God language.

And is the story about the father supposed to mean this ability also makes him psychic? Or he also has the ability to save the life of his son without knowing about it? I was in a car accident and the only people that even knew I was driving a car were the atheists at the home I had left an hour before. No one had some weird premonition and no one spoke in tongues. Is my survival proof that NOT speaking in tongues can safe someones life? Of course not. It's proof that things happen. Sometimes these things kill you. Most of the time they don't.