TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[LeviR]

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

How is a natural man going to do what he doesn't want to?

A carnal mind is a mind that sets its values on the things that please the flesh. It’s a fleshly minded person. A mind that serves the flesh.
Now, the flesh is such that it cares nothing for any laws whatsoever. It does not subject itself to them. Nor can it.
If not for fear of certain consequences under man’s laws and a basic instinct for self preservation, men could not summon the strength to combat the flesh with all of its desires. And the flesh would have a field day and take all it could get.
A day of stealing, raping and murder would be a good day for the flesh.

“The law is made weak by the flesh”

You see, the flesh itself has its own desires and does not subject itself to laws. It only wants what it wants.

This is a very basic thing to learn about the flesh and blood nature of man.
If a man does not exercise some control over his own nature he will end up in prison or dead.

So, this is what Paul is referring to in Romans 8:7
Being in the flesh refers to walking according to the dictates of the flesh.
“Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh”

Paul is not saying that a person who walks according to the flesh cannot learn the truth and repent and be saved. He is simply explaining the flesh nature of man and how it works.
Called, “the works of the flesh”

 

[electedbyHim]

A carnal mind is a mind that sets its values on the things that please the flesh. It’s a fleshly minded person. A mind that serves the flesh.
Now, the flesh is such that it cares nothing for any laws whatsoever. It does not subject itself to them. Nor can it.
If not for fear of certain consequences under man’s laws and a basic instinct for self preservation, men could not summon the strength to combat the flesh with all of its desires. And the flesh would have a field day and take all it could get.
A day of stealing, raping and murder would be a good day for the flesh.

“The law is made weak by the flesh”

You see, the flesh itself has its own desires and does not subject itself to laws. It only wants what it wants.

This is a very basic thing to learn about the flesh and blood nature of man.
If a man does not exercise some control over his own nature he will end up in prison or dead.

So, this is what Paul is referring to in Romans 8:7
Being in the flesh refers to walking according to the dictates of the flesh.
“Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh”

Paul is not saying that a person who walks according to the flesh cannot learn the truth and repent and be saved. He is simply explaining the flesh nature of man and how it works.
Called, “the works of the flesh”

Paul is not saying that a person who walks according to the flesh cannot learn the truth and repent and be saved.

Thats exactly what Paul is saying.

Romans 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Romans 8:8 and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.


Carnal (σαρκικός), fleshly, sensual. Wicked or unconverted men are represented as under the domination of a “carnal mind, which is enmity against God,” and which must issue in death (Rom. 8:6, 7). Worldly enjoyments are carnal, because they only minister to the wants and desires of the animal part of man (Rom. 15:27; 1 Cor. 9:11). The ceremonial parts of the Mosaic dispensation were carnal; they related immediately to the bodies of men and beasts (Heb. 7:16; 9:10). The weapons of a Christian’s warfare are not carnal; they are not of human origin, nor are they directed by human wisdom (2 Cor. 10:4).

John M’Clintock and James Strong, “Carnal,” Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (New York: Harper & Brothers, Publishers, 1891), 127.

 

[LeviR]

Thats exactly what Paul is saying.

Romans 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Romans 8:8 and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.


Carnal (σαρκικός), fleshly, sensual. Wicked or unconverted men are represented as under the domination of a “carnal mind, which is enmity against God,” and which must issue in death (Rom. 8:6, 7). Worldly enjoyments are carnal, because they only minister to the wants and desires of the animal part of man (Rom. 15:27; 1 Cor. 9:11). The ceremonial parts of the Mosaic dispensation were carnal; they related immediately to the bodies of men and beasts (Heb. 7:16; 9:10). The weapons of a Christian’s warfare are not carnal; they are not of human origin, nor are they directed by human wisdom (2 Cor. 10:4).

John M’Clintock and James Strong, “Carnal,” Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (New York: Harper & Brothers, Publishers, 1891), 127.

Man’s nature has been the same since the day he was created and God gave him law.
“I had not known lust except the law says ‘Thou shall not covet’”
Now we know what the law says and also that the flesh cares nothing for that law. The flesh only wants all it can get.

Now, this flesh and blood nature of ours we still own. Our flesh is the same.
The difference is, we know all about it and can walk in the Spirit of truth and deny the flesh with all its sinful desires.

“Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me”

 

[electedbyHim]

Man’s nature has been the same since the day he was created and God gave him law.
“I had not known lust except the law says ‘Thou shall not covet’”
Now we know what the law says and also that the flesh cares nothing for that law. The flesh only wants all it can get.

Now, this flesh and blood nature of ours we still own. Our flesh is the same.
The difference is, we know all about it and can walk in the Spirit of truth and deny the flesh with all its sinful desires.

“Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me”

But we are discussing the unregenerate.

From all your posts, it seems that you believe in total depravity.

Just embrace it.
(my sarcasm)

 

[LeviR]

But we are discussing the unregenerate.

From all your posts, it seems that you believe in total depravity.

Just embrace it.
(my sarcasm)

If you’re unregenerate get regenerate. It comes highly recommended.
It’s an intellectual exercise. it requires learning and deep thought. It’s an intelligent faith.

 

[electedbyHim]

If you’re unregenerate get regenerate. It comes highly recommended.
It’s an intellectual exercise. it requires learning and deep thought. It’s an intelligent faith.

The unregenerate can't regenerate.

Thry hate God.

You must think I'm unregenerate.

No worries, the Lord knows my heart.

 

[LeviR]

The unregenerate can't regenerate.

Thry hate God.

You must think I'm unregenerate.

No worries, the Lord knows my heart.

Sure they can. Believe the gospel of salvation, be immersion into Christ for the remission of sins, and walk in newness of life.
Love God with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself, give to the poor, honor your parents and remain hopeful until that hope is realized.

 

[electedbyHim]

Sure they can. Believe the gospel of salvation, be immersion into Christ for the remission of sins, and walk in newness of life.
Love God with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself, give to the poor, honor your parents and remain hopeful until that hope is realized.

Where does their belief come from to believe the gospel?

 

[LeviR]

Where does their belief come from to believe the gospel?

From the scripture. That’s where they learned who Christ was when he first came. He was “the one of whom Moses and the prophets did write”. The Messiah. The anointed King.

He’s the one of whom it is written about the door of salvation being opened to the Gentiles.

He’s the one who raises the dead to eternal life To life that’s almost indescribable in its glory.

 

[electedbyHim]

From the scripture. That’s where they learned who Christ was when he first came. He was “the one of whom Moses and the prophets did write”. The Messiah. The anointed King.

He’s the one of whom it is written about the door of salvation being opened to the Gentiles.

He’s the one who raises the dead to eternal life To life that’s almost indescribable in its glory.

So it is God who draws them and gives them faith to believe. Man does not and cannot seek God.

Even the uregenerates faith to believe comes from God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[LeviR]

So it is God who draws them and gives them faith to believe. Man does not and cannot seek God.

Even the uregenerates faith to believe comes from God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

“No man can come to me unless my Father draw him”

The Father draws men to Christ because Christ does not teach his own doctrines. He teaches what he learned from the Father. And he speaks those words.

Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[LeviR]

It was Moses and the prophets who spoke of Christ. And they did so under inspiration of God, who according to Christ is the Father, and also by whom they heard and learned from Him of the Messiah who was to come.
God is still drawing men to Christ by the inspiration of the scriptures whereby they learn of God and Christ.

 

[electedbyHim]

“No man can come to me unless my Father draw him”

The Father draws men to Christ because Christ does not teach his own doctrines. He teaches what he learned from the Father. And he speaks those words.

Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Right, God initiates and does the work of salvation.

You should study the word "draws" in John 6:44, you might be surprised of the meaning.

 

[Who Me]

If you’re unregenerate get regenerate. It comes highly recommended.
It’s an intellectual exercise. it requires learning and deep thought. It’s an intelligent faith.

Sorry but this is incorrect.
While ones intellect is involved being saved,being regenerated is primarily a spiritual event.
One has to seek God, humble, be repentant/sorry for one's sins and be willing to change.
This only happens when The Spirit is working in someone's life.

 

[Whatever]

Paul is not saying that a person who walks according to the flesh cannot learn the truth and repent and be saved.

But Jesus does.
John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
John 5:42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.
John 5:44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?
John 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

Paul again:
1 Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
From Vincent's Word Studies:
The contrast is between a man governed by the divine Spirit and one from whom that Spirit is absent. But ψυχικὸς natural, is not equivalent to σαρκικός fleshy. Paul is speaking of natural as contrasted with spiritual cognition applied to spiritual truth, and therefore of the ψυχή soul, as the organ of human cognition, contrasted with the πνεῦμα spirit, as the organ of spiritual cognition. The man, therefore, whose cognition of truth depends solely upon his natural insight is ψυχικός natural, as contrasted with the spiritual man (πνευματικός) to whom divine insight is imparted. In other words, the organ employed in the apprehension of spiritual truth characterizes the man. Paul therefore “characterizes the man who is not yet capable of understanding divine wisdom as ψυχικός, i.e., as one who possesses in his ψυχή soul, simply the organ of purely human cognition, but has not yet the organ of religious cognition in the πνεῦμα spirit” (Dickson).

 

[JLB]

How many times are you going to ask this?

Study all the Scriptures about man and sin in the Bible, all 66 books. If you do not see the deprapity of man that is on you.

Oxford english dictionary says....deprave n verb make (someone) immoral or wicked; corrupt.

Sin affects the mind, will and emotions of humans, the total human.

Do you believe men are totally depraved but not utterly depraved?

 

[JLB]

This teaching is the first of the famous “Five Points of Calvinism,” commonly called “total depravity.” But that wording of the point, like the wording of most of the others, is a bit misleading. To most persons “total” means “utterly,” and utter depravity would mean that people are as bad as they can possibly be. That is not true, of course. Given the finite circumstances of our lives, civil laws, and various social and religious restraints, each of us could undoubtedly be much worse than we are. What total depravity is meant to convey is the idea that sin has affected the whole person down to the very core or root of his or her being. That is why many writers prefer the words “radical depravity” or “radical corruption” instead.

At least you see, or at least displaying how using non scriptural words and terms leads to more and more confusion where you just resort to a “word salad” of that has nothing to do with the doctrine of Christ.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

Do you believe this scripture?

 

[LeviR]

But Jesus does.
John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
John 5:42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.
John 5:44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?
John 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

Paul again:
1 Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
From Vincent's Word Studies:
The contrast is between a man governed by the divine Spirit and one from whom that Spirit is absent. But ψυχικὸς natural, is not equivalent to σαρκικός fleshy. Paul is speaking of natural as contrasted with spiritual cognition applied to spiritual truth, and therefore of the ψυχή soul, as the organ of human cognition, contrasted with the πνεῦμα spirit, as the organ of spiritual cognition. The man, therefore, whose cognition of truth depends solely upon his natural insight is ψυχικός natural, as contrasted with the spiritual man (πνευματικός) to whom divine insight is imparted. In other words, the organ employed in the apprehension of spiritual truth characterizes the man. Paul therefore “characterizes the man who is not yet capable of understanding divine wisdom as ψυχικός, i.e., as one who possesses in his ψυχή soul, simply the organ of purely human cognition, but has not yet the organ of religious cognition in the πνεῦμα spirit” (Dickson).

Some aren’t prepared to pluck out their eye and cut off their hand.

 

[electedbyHim]

Do you believe men are totally depraved but not utterly depraved?

I already gave you the answer in my reply.

Let me help...

To most persons “total” means “utterly,” and utter depravity would mean that people are as bad as they can possibly be. That is not true, of course.

 

[electedbyHim]

At least you see, or at least displaying how using non scriptural words and terms leads to more and more confusion where you just resort to a “word salad” of that has nothing to do with the doctrine of Christ.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

Do you believe this scripture?

At least you see, or at least displaying how using non scriptural words and terms leads to more and more confusion where you just resort to a “word salad” of that has nothing to do with the doctrine of Christ.

In all honesty I do not see the confusion.

Confusion comes in when people use the Bible "only" to discuss doctrines.

I have stressed the importance of Systematic and other theologies based on the Bible in the past.

Also hermeneutics play the biggest part in interpreation if you ask me.

The word hermeneutic is not found in the Bible. Is that considered non biblical to you?

Check this out.......

What Are the Various Major Kinds of Theology?

1. Biblical theology: The organization of Scripture thematically by biblical chronology or by biblical author with respect to the progressive revelation of the Bible (properly a component of systematic theology)

2. Dogmatic theology: The organization of Scripture with an emphasis on favored or selected church creeds

3. Exegetical theology: The methodical organization of Scripture by dealing exegetically with individual texts of the Bible (properly a component of both biblical and systematic theology)

4. Historical theology: The historical study of doctrinal developments after the apostolic era to the present time

5. Natural theology: The study of what can be known about God by human reason alone through the empirical study of the natural world

6. Pastoral/practical theology: The organization of Scripture with an emphasis on the personal application of doctrinal truth in the lives of the church and individual Christians

7. Systematic theology: The organization of Scripture by a synthesis of scriptural teaching, summarized using major categories that encompass the entirety of God’s written revelation (developed from exegetical and biblical theology)

What Is Systematic Theology?

The term systematic comes from the compound Greek word made up of syn, “together,” and histanai, “to set up,” meaning “to set up together” or “to systematize.” As noted above, theology comes from the Greek word theologia, “a word about god,” meaning “theology.” Etymologically, systematic theology involves the orderly bringing together of words about God or a bringing together of theology in an organized fashion. Consider Charles Spurgeon’s response to those who object to a systematic approach to theology:

Systematic theology is to the Bible what science is to nature. To suppose that all the other works of God are orderly and systematic, and the greater the work the more perfect the system: and that the greatest of all His works, in which all His perfections are transcendently displayed, should have no plan or system, is altogether absurd.4

Systematic theology answers the question, what does the completed canon of Scripture teach about any one theme or topic? For example, what does the Bible teach from Genesis to Revelation about the deity of Jesus Christ? A basic definition of systematic theology, then, would be “the ordered exposition of Christian doctrines.”5

A systematic theology must display (1) hermeneutical integrity, (2) doctrinal coherence, (3) ethical relevance, (4) worldview explicability, and (5) traditional continuity. Where these are present and operative, one will find a good systematizing that will be of value to the expositor. As he carefully examines every detail of the text in preparation to expound it, systematic theology allows him to also view the whole theological picture—one that has taken into account not only the studied conclusions from church history but also the progress of revelation culminating in the complete revelation of God.6 (For a chronological overview of the progress of revelation, see the appendix).



4 Charles Spurgeon, as quoted in Iain H. Murray, The Forgotten Spurgeon (London: Banner of Truth, 1973), 9.

5 James L. Garrett, Systematic Theology: Biblical, Historical, and Evangelical (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1990), 1:8.

6 This insight came from our colleague Trevor Craigen, retired Master’s Seminary professor of theology.

^[1] John MacArthur and Richard Mayhue, eds., Biblical Doctrine: A Systematic Summary of Bible Truth (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2017), 35–36.