You need to proofread your post . There are errors in it.Problems as in?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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You need to proofread your post . There are errors in it.Problems as in?
I read this many times. Please show errors.You need to proofread your post . There are errors in it.
Your scripture links in red are the problems I speak of .I am certain this is not you were looking for in an answer.
Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I shall pray with the spirit and I shall pray with the mind also; I shall sing with the spirit and I shall sing with the mind also. Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified. I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind, that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue. (1Co_14:13-19)
In this section Paul continues to teach about counterfeit tongues, and therefore continues to speak sarcastically (cf. 1Co_4:8-10). This is indicated in the first place by the fact that he uses the singular tongue (see discussion above under 1Co_4:1-5), which refers to the false gift, except in 1Co_14:27, where the reference is to one man speaking on one occasion. In the second place, what he says here does not, for the most part, apply to the true gift of tongues. If Paul were not speaking sarcastically of counterfeited tongues he would be asking the Corinthians to seek the true gift of interpretation. But he has already made it clear that the Holy Spirit sovereignly distributes gifts “individually just as He wills” (1Co_12:11). Gifts are not to be sought by individuals, but only accepted and properly used.
Paul sarcastically reproaches carnal believers for their immaturity (cf. 1Co_12:20), saying in effect, “While you are jabbering away in your unintelligible pseudo-tongues, you could at least ask God to give you some means of making them beneficial to the church. As you now exercise them they are both pagan and pointless.”
In the pagan rites with which the Corinthians were so familiar, speaking in ecstatic utterances was considered to be communing with the gods spirit-to-spirit. The experience was intended to bypass the mind and normal understanding. As noted above, its mysteries were meant to remain mysterious. Paul here may have used pneuma (which can be translated “spirit,” “wind,” or “breath”) in the sense of breath. If so, He was saying, If I pray in a [self-manufactured] tongue, my [breath] prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
It certainly seems impossible that spirit here refers to the Holy Spirit, as some charismatics believe—His Spirit being manifested through our spirits. All Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but if Paul was speaking of the Holy Spirit in relation to my spirit, then grammatically and theologically he also was speaking of the Holy Spirit in relation to my mind. The Holy Spirit could not be praying through a person while bypassing his mind. And he certainly was not saying that the mind of the Holy Spirit sometimes can be unfruitful. The apostle has to be speaking entirely of himself, and that hypothetically. “If I, though an apostle, were to speak the gibberish that many of you speak, my mind would have no part in it. I would only be making wind, blowing air (cf. 1Co_12:9). What I would say would be as empty and mindless as the ecstasies you used to witness in your pagan temples.”
What is the outcome then ? The answer is that there is no place for mindless ecstatic prayer. Praying and singing with the spirit must be accompanied by praying and singing with the mind also. It is obvious that edification cannot exist apart from the mind. Spirituality involves more than the mind, but it never excludes the mind (cf. Rom_12:1-2; Eph_4:23; Col_3:10). In Scripture, and certainly in the writings of Paul, no premium is placed on ignorance. Quoting Deu_6:5, Jesus reinforced the Old Testament command that we should “love the Lord [our] God with all [our] hearts, and with all [our] soul, and with all [our] mind” (Mat_22:37).
Praying or singing in tongues could serve no purpose, and Paul would not do it. Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? Ungifted (idiotes) is, I believe, better translated in its usual sense of ignorant, unlearned, or unskilled. A person who is ignorant of a language being spoken cannot possibly understand what he hears. In a worship service, for example, he could not know when to say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks. Prayers or songs of thanks could not include anyone else if they were given in unintelligible sounds.
Amen is a Hebrew word of agreement and encouragement, meaning “So let it be,” and was commonly used by worshipers in the synagogue. The practice carried over into some early Christian churches and, in fact, is common in many churches today. A person cannot know when to “Amen,” however, if he does not know what is being said. The person speaking in a tongue may feel he is giving thanks well enough, but no one else will know what is being said. The other man is not edified, as he should be when the gift is ministered properly (1Co_14:5, 1Co_14:12).
Lest the Corinthians, after reading this, think he no longer recognized the true gift of tongues, Paul says, I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all. He made it clear that he was not condemning true tongues or enviously criticizing a gift he did not himself possess.
Here he uses the plural tongues. He is no longer speaking hypothetically (cf. 1Co_14:6, 1Co_14:11, 1Co_14:14-15), and he is no longer speaking of a counterfeited gift. Paul had had more experience than any of the Corinthians (you all) in speaking in tongues, though we have no record of a specific instance. He knew what the proper use of the true gift involved and did not involve. We can be sure that he did not use the gift in any perverted way for personal gratification. He may have used it as it was used at Pentecost, to bring a supernatural message to those God wanted to reach, and as a miraculous sign verifying the gospel and his apostolic authority. Yet he considered that gift so low in value as compared to his other gifts and ministries that in none of his writings does he mention a specific use of it by him or any other believer.
The gift of languages had a proper place for a prescribed time as a miraculous confirming sign to unbelievers, with an accompanying purpose of edification through interpretation. However, in the church, Paul continues, I desire to speak five words with my mind, that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue. Using the singular (tongue) again to refer to pagan gibberish, he emphasizes that an uncountable number of sounds in unintelligible tones has no place in the church and is useless. Five understandable words are far more desirable.
The apostle was not speaking of an exact mathematical ratio. Although murioi can mean ten thousand (cf. Mat_18:24), the largest number for which Greek had a specific word, it was commonly used to indicate an inestimable number. It is the term from which we get myriad, as it is sometimes translated. In the book of Revelation, for example, the term is repeated (“myriads of myriads”) and then added to “thousands of thousands” (Mat_5:11) to indicate a completely immeasurable figure.
It is in that general sense that the term is used in our text. To speak a very short sentence of five words with [his] mind, giving a message that would instruct or encourage his hearers, was more valuable to Paul than a limitless number of words in a tongue that was incomprehensible to them.
Because Paul knew that the gift of tongues would cease in a few years, he was not giving instructions for governing tongues in the church today. He was not even giving such instruction to the Corinthians, because he was speaking of counterfeit tongues, which were based in self-centered emotionalism and did not originate with the Holy Spirit. He was giving them, as well as Christians of all ages, warning against using self-serving, worldly, carnal, ineffective, and God-dishonoring substitutes for the true spiritual gifts God has ordained to be ministered in the power and in the fruit of the Spirit and for the blessing and edification of His church.
It certainly seems impossible that spirit here refers to the Holy Spirit, as some charismatics believe—His Spirit being manifested through our spirits. All Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but if Paul was speaking of the Holy Spirit in relation to my spirit, then grammatically and theologically he also was speaking of the Holy Spirit in relation to my mind. The Holy Spirit could not be praying through a person while bypassing his mind. And he certainly was not saying that the mind of the Holy Spirit sometimes can be unfruitful. The apostle has to be speaking entirely of himself, and that hypothetically. “If I, though an apostle, were to speak the gibberish that many of you speak, my mind would have no part in it. I would only be making wind, blowing air (cf. 1Co_12:9). What I would say would be as empty and mindless as the ecstasies you used to witness in your pagan temples.”
1 Corinthians 4:8
full … rich … reigned. In a severe rebuke, Paul heaps on false praise, sarcastically suggesting that those Corinthians who were self-satisfied had already achieved spiritual greatness. They were similar to the Laodiceans (see Rev_3:17). Cf. Php_3:12; 2Ti_4:8; Jas_1:12; 1Pe_5:4.
reign. Yet, Paul genuinely wished it really were the coronation time of the millennium, so that they all might share in the glory of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 4:9
last. The imagery is of condemned prisoners brought into a Roman arena to fight and die; the last ones brought out for slaughter were the grand finale. In His sovereign wisdom and for His ultimate glory, God chose to display the apostles figuratively before men and angels during the present age as just such worthless and condemned spectacles (cf. Mat_19:28). Like doomed gladiators, they were ridiculed, spit on, imprisoned, and beaten; yet, God glorified His name through them as He used them to build His kingdom.
1 Corinthians 4:10
fools … wise. Again using sarcasm, this time on himself as if mimicking the attitude of the proud Corinthians toward him, Paul rebukes them (cf. Act_17:18).
It certainly seems impossible that spirit here refers to the Holy Spirit, as some charismatics believe—His Spirit being manifested through our spirits. All Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but if Paul was speaking of the Holy Spirit in relation to my spirit, then grammatically and theologically he also was speaking of the Holy Spirit in relation to my mind. The Holy Spirit could not be praying through a person while bypassing his mind. And he certainly was not saying that the mind of the Holy Spirit sometimes can be unfruitful. The apostle has to be speaking entirely of himself, and that hypothetically. “If I, though an apostle, were to speak the gibberish that many of you speak, my mind would have no part in it. I would only be making wind, blowing air (cf. 1Co_12:9). What I would say would be as empty and mindless as the ecstasies you used to witness in your pagan temples.”
1 Corinthians 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
Using your logic about the singular "tongue" we see what Paul said in this verse .In this section Paul continues to teach about counterfeit tongues, and therefore continues to speak sarcastically (cf. 1Co_4:8-10). This is indicated in the first place by the fact that he uses the singular tongue (see discussion above under 1Co_4:1-5), which refers to the false gift, except in 1Co_14:27, where the reference is to one man speaking on one occasion. In the second place, what he says here does not, for the most part, apply to the true gift of tongues.
The Corinthians were abusing the gifts.Using your logic about the singular "tongue" we see what Paul said in this verse .
1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Your logic applied to verse we get this .
For if I pray in a false tongue , my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful .
How could Paul's spirit pray in a false tongue? Because it did not do that !
Corinthians 14 is not about false tongues but it is about the Corinthians not knowing the proper order of the Gift of Tongues in their church services.
After presenting love as the “more excellent way” above all ministries and gifts, Paul directly and forcefully confronts the Corinthians in regard to their sin against love in misunderstanding and misusing the gift of tongues. Believers there had so abused the gift that they rivaled Babel in confusion of speaking, and the apostle devotes an entire chapter to the problem, which was so representative of their sinfulness
As commented on under 1Co_12:10, the practice of ecstatic utterances was common in many of the pagan Graeco-Roman religions of Paul's day, including those active in Corinth. Devotees of a god would drink and dance themselves into frenzies until they went into semiconsciousness or even unconsciousness—an experience they considered to be the highest form of communion with the divine. They believed that in such drunkenness their spirits left their bodies and communed directly with the god or gods, a practice to which Paul alludes in Eph_5:18. The ecstatic speaking that often accompanied such experiences was thought to be the language of the gods.
The terms lalein glossei/glossais (to speak in a tongue/in tongues) that Paul uses so frequently in 1Co_14:1-40 were commonly used in his day to describe pagan ecstatic speech. The Greeks also used eros to describe the experience. Though commonly used of sexual love, eros also was used for any strongly sensual feeling or activity, and pagan ecstatic frenzies often were accompanied by sexual orgies and perversions of all sorts.
In the church at Corinth much of the tongues-speaking had taken on the form and flavor of those pagan ecstasies. Emotionalism all but neutralized their rational senses, and selfish exhibitionism was common, with everyone wanting to do and say his own thing at the same time (1Co_14:26). Services were bedlam and chaos, with little worship and little edification taking place.
Because of the extreme carnality in the church at Corinth, we can be sure that much of the tongues-speaking there was counterfeit. Believers were in no spiritual condition to properly use true spiritual gifts or properly manifest true spiritual fruit. How could a congregation so worldly, opinionated, selfish, cliquish, envious, jealous, divisive, argumentative, arrogant, disorderly, defrauding, inconsiderate, gluttonous, immoral, and desecrative of the Lord's Supper exercise the gifts of the Spirit? For them to have done so would have defied every biblical principle of spirituality. You cannot walk in the Spirit while exercising the flesh.
Against the backdrop of such false experiences Paul teaches three basic truths about the gift of tongues: its position is secondary to prophecy (1Co_14:1-9); its purpose was as a sign to unbelievers (1Co_14:20-25); and its proper procedure, or use, was systematic and orderly (1Co_14:26-40).
There are two gifts:Question:
Why speak in a different language in church and need someone to interpret the foreign language, when people in the church understand the English language?
Grace and peace to you.
I want to thank you for being mature in this conversation.There are two gifts:
Tongues
Interpretation
Are they tied together? Evidently.
Tied together they are equal to prophesy.
1 Corinthians 14:23 kjv
23. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24. But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or oneunlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25. And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
Our job is really to say things hidden in a man’s heart. Things not able to be known by natural means.
If all our old timers (or youngsters), do not say something that strikes a chord with a visitor, we are not there yet.
A granddaughter said ball. In this little soft high pitched voice.
A gift of God to a grandparent.
A year later she could show me a ball.
Another year later and could write ball.
Later she could write a sentence about a ball.
Then a paragraph about a ball.
Much later she is talking about her plane trigonometry course, and I ask if she is aware of the fact that Buckminster Fuller wrote a book on how the curverature of the earth can be calculated into trig.
We evidently can speak in tongues before we interpret. Learning process.
eddif
Some / most speak English.
Some English / Spanish.
Some Greek, Hebrew, English and Latin.
You get the point. On the day of Pentecost a lot of languages were there. Did not need church interpreters. The crowd heard their language.
eddif
1 Corinthians 14:23 kjv
23. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24. But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or oneunlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25. And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
Against the backdrop of such false experiences Paul teaches three basic truths about the gift of tongues: its position is secondary to prophecy (1Co_14:1-9); its purpose was as a sign to unbelievers (1Co_14:20-25); and its proper procedure, or use, was systematic and orderly (1Co_14:26-40).
1 Corinthians 14:20-25
This important passage deals with the primary purpose of the gift of languages. Paul has clearly indicated that such speaking was not something for all believers to do, since it was dispensed sovereignly like all other gifts (1Co_12:11); nor was it connected to the baptism with the Holy Spirit which all believers receive (1Co_12:13); nor was it some superior sign of spirituality, but rather an inferior gift (1Co_14:5). Because of all that, and the corruption of the real gift by the Corinthians, the apostle gives the principles for its proper and limited operation as a sign.
Our job is really to say things hidden in a man’s heart. Things not able to be known by natural means.
If we have to go back over some of this, because I go in stages, just pull me back on course.I want to thank you for being mature in this conversation.
There is no need for anyone to let the flesh take over and get all nasty when we are discussing differences in our beliefs. Thank you, it is refreshing.
Are they tied together? Evidently.
Tied together they are equal to prophesy.
But if it is mans heart how could it be from the Lord?
The heart is deceitful and wicked (Jeremiah 17:9)
Why does one need to speak in tongues, why is not Gods written word and preaching it good enough?
Grace and peace to you
With all due respect, you lost me.So here is what I was saying:
Rain falls to earth
Water flows to the sea
Evaporation makes clouds
repeat
Words come forth
Creating flesh from stone
Words are spoken by new flesh
Words influence others
repeat
It is not supposed to be our words.
eddif
Seed are compared to the word of God in the parable of the sower. Seeds are repedative, but the seed has a period of time when the seed is not there as a visible thing. The seed is in the genetics of the visible plant ready to be expressed later.With all due respect, you lost me.
Why is preaching the Gospel and the written word of God not enough. Why does one need tongues?
I agree .The Corinthians were abusing the gifts.
Here is a good article to read . I suggest a deep study of the book of Acts .Why is preaching the Gospel and the written word of God not enough. Why does one need tongues?
Seed are compared to the word of God in the parable of the sower. Seeds are repedative, but the seed has a period of time when the seed is not there as a visible thing. The seed is in the genetics of the visible plant ready to be expressed later.
Seed
Good ground
Water
Warmth
Seed dies
Sprout appears (voice of hope?)
Plant grows
At maturity fruit containing seed
Plant seed vary as to what causes seed germination.
This is as good as a redneck can do.
I can not do monocotyledons etc.
The concept applied to the Word of God. Maybe? You are listening to this coming out of a redneck.
The Word planted in a good ground (plowed by repentance) Bursts forth as life.
On the day of Pentecost this life began to be manifested as (tongues?), mighty rushing wind sound, good works, fellowship, sharing of possessions, knowledge previously not openly revealed, healing, discernment of spirits, word of wisdom, etc.
All of the above.
At the gentile inclusion some things precede tongues, but they happen and IMHO were noticed.
Are there pastors, teachers, administrators, etc ? Yes.
Prophecy is higher order than tongues, but tongues plus interpretation is equal to prophecy.
Seed plus other things yields abundant life. Just tares slow growth.
Why do we need seeds? Why can’t we just teach about DNA, ATP, photosynthesis, and that be enough?
eddif
Prophecy is higher order than tongues, but tongues plus interpretation is equal to prophecy.
I read the article, But it does not answer my original questions.I agree .
Here is a good article to read . I suggest a deep study of the book of Acts .
20 Reasons Why It Is So Important To Speak In Tongues
Good check the scripture out.I am not certain that is Biblical.