Twelve rules that are broken when people speak in tongues Part 2

[electedbyHim]

Good check the scripture out.

1 Corinthians 12:28 kjv
28. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29. Are all apostles? are all prophets? areall teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30. Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31. But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

As far as the seeds stuff.
Romans 1:18-20
Parable of sower.

eddif

Prophecy is higher order than tongues, but tongues plus interpretation is equal to prophecy.

I am not seeing how tongues plus interpretation is equal to prophecy in the verses you provided.

 

[eddif]

I am not seeing how tongues plus interpretation is equal to prophecy in the verses you provided.

Ok just communication problem I think it is already on this thread but I will repost.

eddif

 

[eddif]

I am not seeing how tongues plus interpretation is equal to prophecy in the verses you provided.

1 Corinthians 14:5 kjv
5. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

It appears that a person speaking in tongues can interpret himself.

If we look at secular language interpreters. They are not many words behind the speaker.

After a time a person who speaks in tongues ( that has sought the gift of interpretation) can just prophesy without going through tongues first and then the interpretation. In fact then nobody knows tongues were involved in the message given.

eddif

 

[electedbyHim]

1 Corinthians 14:5 kjv
5. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

It appears that a person speaking in tongues can interpret himself.

If we look at secular language interpreters. They are not many words behind the speaker.

After a time a person who speaks in tongues ( that has sought the gift of interpretation) can just prophesy without going through tongues first and then the interpretation. In fact then nobody knows tongues were involved in the message given.

eddif

God sovereignly distributes gifts. We do not seek them.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[eddif]

God sovereignly distributes gifts. We do not seek them.

Grace and peace to you.

1 Corinthians 14:1 kjv
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Are you quoting a commentary?

Which hey works somewhat. I just way more trust self Bible study. If you get it wrong someone will speak up. Just every one who tells you are wrong, is right themselves.

eddif

 

[hawkman]

I read the article, But it does not answer my original questions.

Thanks for reading the article .

Why is preaching the Gospel and the written word of God not enough. Why does one need tongues?

God thought I needed the gift of tongues and much to my surprise I received it when I was born again .

I will tell you how I got the Gift of Tongues. I received the Gift of Tongues at salvation, before I left the spot at the front of the church where I received my salvation . I stood there at the altar and words were wanting to come out of my mouth that were NOT my words . I was shocked and thought what is happening to me and I did not let The Holy Spirit have the utterance . Over the next few weeks I came to understand that The Holy Spirit was wanting to speak through me when I was at the altar . At a later church service anyone with a need went to the altar for prayer and I went and was prayed for and began speaking in tongues . No training , no teaching it just flowed . Now have I ever gave a message out in tongues in a church service , no I have not . When I am alone in prayer is when I will pray in tongues . Sometimes a melody come with the words and I sing my prayer , this is not very often but so great when it does happen .

I do not agree with the authors interpretation with scripture. I do not believe it is Biblical.

At least you did read it, I thought it was a good article .

I can directly talk to the Lord as I do daily. I never have seen any significance to tongues, even when I was part of (not involved in any way) with Pentecostals and charismatics

Praise God, that you talk to him daily !

I do not need to speak in tongues to prove that I have the Holy Spirit in me and working through me.

You are right .

 

[electedbyHim]

1 Corinthians 14:1 kjv
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Are you quoting a commentary?

Which hey works somewhat. I just way more trust self Bible study. If you get it wrong someone will speak up. Just every one who tells you are wrong, is right themselves.

eddif

1 Corinthians 14:1​

Pursue love. A command for every believer. Because lovelessness was a root, spiritual problem in the Corinthian church, the godly love just described should have been sought after by them with particular determination and diligence.

desire spiritual gifts. Love does not preclude the use of these enablements. Since Paul has addressed not desiring showy gifts (1Co_12:31) and not elevating one over the other (1Co_12:14-25), some might think it best to set them all aside for unity's sake. Spiritual gifts, on the other hand, are sovereignly bestowed by God on each believer and necessary for the building of the church (1Co_12:1-10). Desire for them, in this context, is in reference to their use collectively and faithfully in His service—not a personal yearning to have an admired gift that one did not possess. As a congregation, the Corinthians should be wanting the full expression of all the gifts to be exercised. "You" is plural, emphasizing the corporate desire of the church.

especially … prophesy. This spiritual gift was desirable in the life of the church to serve in a way that tongues cannot, namely, by edifying the entire church (1Co_14:5).

I just way more trust self Bible study.

For me, I will never trust myself in a Bible study. I trust the men who God has put in place to interpret His written word for His elect.

Yes, I am quoting a commentary. I trust well established men of God who know the original languages and use proper hermeneutics in exegesis. I can only know as much as the Spirit wants me to know. I do not have the gift of a Pastor/teacher.

Hebrews 13:7
Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Jeremiah 3:15
And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding

I get what your saying about those who will tell you that you are wrong. I get that alot.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[electedbyHim]

Thanks for reading the article .

God thought I needed the gift of tongues and much to my surprise I received it when I was born again .



At least you did read it, I thought it was a good article .

Praise God, that you talk to him daily !

You are right .

The end goal is bringing glory to the Lord in all we do, and becoming more and more Christ like.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[eddif]

Post 47 is arranged to show quotes.

The bracket with eddif is what I posted.

The long bracket with 1 Corinthians 14:1 at the top Is not my post.

The short bracket about Bible study is by eddif.

eddif

 

[electedbyHim]

Post 47 is arranged to show quotes.

The bracket with eddif is what I posted.

The long bracket with 1 Corinthians 14:1 at the top Is not my post.

The short bracket about Bible study is by eddif.

eddif

Yes you are correct. I put that in quotes because it is not my own words.

I should clarify this in the future.

I am not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[eddif]

Your concordance and word study is your friend.

Well ?

I once lived 9 miles from a Reformed Theology bookstore. A buddy and I arranged a Greek class at night. Oh boy a Chance at: untarnished, trustworthy, pure, non tampered Word Of God.

About lesson 5? The structure of a verb came up. Suddenly the structure totally supported reformed theology. The buddy and I were from different denominations and I thought (that is strange). I ask the question: if we were to go to a Greek class at an Armenian theology school would we learn the same verb structure? The teacher dodged the question. Of course I said oh no I want to know if different Greek classes teach differently. So we get the answer that Greek classes do teach differently. Last class we took.

In one sense I am very unique (strange may be a better word).

I believe in the one new man (I hope the right version), but I am open to learning ( well open after torture lol).

I once was told by a Jew you are wrong to think about levels of understanding that way. Next time I talk with him he says (you know I did some research and there is a method called PaRDeS that some later Jews use). So I research it out and it is very close (probably more evolved) than what I was seeing in the Bible.
Over the years I have become to rely on the concept. There are several people that do not agree and several that do agree. The majority tend to say well I have never heard of that before (meaning I am turning off to any discussion about this).

So here we sit: a diverse group working out our salvation with fear and trembling. The refining fire refining us while the livening bush is not consumed, and next week the pruner will arrive to prune us so that we can bear more fruit.

eddif

 

[electedbyHim]

Well ?

I once lived 9 miles from a Reformed Theology bookstore. A buddy and I arranged a Greek class at night. Oh boy a Chance at: untarnished, trustworthy, pure, non tampered Word Of God.

About lesson 5? The structure of a verb came up. Suddenly the structure totally supported reformed theology. The buddy and I were from different denominations and I thought (that is strange). I ask the question: if we were to go to a Greek class at an Armenian theology school would we learn the same verb structure? The teacher dodged the question. Of course I said oh no I want to know if different Greek classes teach differently. So we get the answer that Greek classes do teach differently. Last class we took.

In one sense I am very unique (strange may be a better word).

I believe in the one new man (I hope the right version), but I am open to learning ( well open after torture lol).

I once was told by a Jew you are wrong to think about levels of understanding that way. Next time I talk with him he says (you know I did some research and there is a method called PaRDeS that some later Jews use). So I research it out and it is very close (probably more evolved) than what I was seeing in the Bible.
Over the years I have become to rely on the concept. There are several people that do not agree and several that do agree. The majority tend to say well I have never heard of that before (meaning I am turning off to any discussion about this).

So here we sit: a diverse group working out our salvation with fear and trembling. The refining fire refining us while the livening bush is not consumed, and next week the pruner will arrive to prune us so that we can bear more fruit.

eddif

I have no doubt there is bias in many commentaries, interpretations, concordance's and so on. We still live in our sinful flesh and are not on the same level as the Lord. I have many theological dictionaries concordances and the like, they pretty much tend to agree from what I have seen.

I remember a comment by a well respected Pastor/theologian he said, "I know there is errors in my theology, I just do not know where".

That to me is a very humble and wise comment.

We are very diverse in what we believe, but the end goal is the same, to bring glory to God in all we do.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[hawkman]

I once was told by a Jew you are wrong to think about levels of understanding that way. Next time I talk with him he says (you know I did some research and there is a method called PaRDeS that some later Jews use). So I research it out and it is very close (probably more evolved) than what I was seeing in the Bible.
Over the years I have become to rely on the concept. There are several people that do not agree and several that do agree. The majority tend to say well I have never heard of that before (meaning I am turning off to any discussion about this).

I thought about you when I read this on a site “Finding The Oldest Midrash: The Identity of the Messiah.” because they talk about PaRDeS .The Institute for Midrashic Studies of the New Testament

The Breakthrough heading is where the google drive link is, the second link. Very interesting .

 

[Hopeful]

Please share your thoughts and opinions.

How will we find out if there is no interpreter unless we speak in tongues?

 

[eddif]

I thought about you when I read this on a site “Finding The Oldest Midrash: The Identity of the Messiah.” because they talk about PaRDeS .The Institute for Midrashic Studies of the New Testament

The Breakthrough heading is where the google drive link is, the second link. Very interesting .

Do not encourage me too much. Some of the information is related to Kabbalah writings. This is sort of like being a Pentecostal in the most Reformed setting you can imagine. I have tried to suggest, but not push the thoughts.

I discovered what is equal to PaRDeS in the pay the preacher NT scripture. It goes sort of like this:
Do not muzzle the ox while he is treading out corn.
Pay plowman
Pay planter
Pay preacher

Agricultural food
Animal husbandry
Farm labor alone or with animals
Church order

Same concept over several context areas.

Then I head for the ox has 4 stomachs and split hoofs, and parallels there too.

The link looks like they do just words.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

How will we find out if there is no interpreter unless we speak in tongues?

Daniel 5:5 kjv
5. Suddenly the fingers of a human hand appeared and wrote on the plaster of the wall, near the lampstand in the royal palace. The king watched the hand as it wrote.
Daniel 5:25 kjv
25. And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.

All the wise men could not tell the words or the meaning.

Daniel prayed and God gave all the information.

So I guess this is a lot like tongues and Interpretation.


Now I would not like to just say: this is the only good acceptable example in the Bible and, this is all that I need.

I personally believe spiritual gifts are for today.

eddif

 

[electedbyHim]

How will we find out if there is no interpreter unless we speak in tongues?

Why is the written word and preaching not enough, why a foreign language?

 

[eddif]

Why is the written word and preaching not enough, why a foreign language?

1 Corinthians 14:21 kjv
21. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Is it apparent only to me that other tongues are mentioned in various time periods?

I really just read instructions about their use and accept it,

Isaiah 28:11 kjv
11. For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

eddif

 

[electedbyHim]

1 Corinthians 14:21 kjv
21. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Is it apparent only to me that other tongues are mentioned in various time periods?

I really just read instructions about their use and accept it,

Isaiah 28:11 kjv
11. For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

eddif

Eddif, do you understand that 1 Corinthians 14:21 was a prediction to unbelieving Israel.

​

​

1Corinthians 14:21 In the Law it is written, “BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME,” says the Lord.

it is written. In a freely rendered quotation from Isa_28:11-12, Paul explains that centuries earlier the Lord had predicted that one day He would use men of other tongues, that is, foreigners speaking unknown languages, as a sign to unbelieving Israel, who "will not hear Me." These "other tongues" are what they knew as the gift of languages, given solely as a sign to unbelieving Israel. That sign was threefold: cursing, blessing, and authority. To emphasize the cursing, Paul quoted Isaiah's words of warning to Judah of the judgment from Assyria (see note on Isa_28:11-12). The leaders thought his words were too simple and rejected him. The time would come, the prophet said, when they would hear Assyrian, a language they could not understand, indicating judgment. Jeremiah spoke similarly of the Babylonians who were also to come and destroy Judah (cf. Jer_5:15).

When the apostles spoke at Pentecost in all those foreign languages (Act_2:3-12), the Jews should have known that the judgment prophesied and historically fulfilled, first by the Assyrians and then by the Babylonian captivity, was about to fall on them again for their rejection of Christ, including the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70) as it had happened in 586 B.C. under Babylonian power.

Isaiah 28:11 Indeed, He will speak to this people Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,

another tongue. Since the drunkards would not listen to God's prophet, he responded to them by predicting their subservience to Assyrian taskmasters, who would give them instructions in a foreign language. The NT divulges an additional meaning of this verse that anticipates God's use of the miraculous gift of tongues as a credential of His NT messengers (see notes on 1Co_14:21-22; cf. Deu_28:49; Jer_5:15; 1Co_14:12).

 

[hawkman]

Why is the written word and preaching not enough, why a foreign language?

I will treat this as two questions .

Why is the written word and preaching not enough,

It is enough in some of the Pentecostal church services I have attended . There is not always in every service a message from the Holy Spirit in tongues . When the Word and preaching are not enough the Holy Spirit will speak . The Holy Spirit is a perfect delivery system, but man is not . Sometimes the message can be for just one person at the church service, case in point .

My wife told me of one such service she attended . There was message given out in tongues and there was the pause after waiting for an interpretation but no one spoke with an interpretation which was not normally what happens . As everyone was leaving the service a visitor to the church that night told the pastor that the message in tongues had been for him because it was a language that he spoke .

why a foreign language?

One reason it is a sign to the unbelievers, just as it was at Pentecost .