journeymanisnothing
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Yes sis, just that that. God decided he wanted people of faith to be his,
Hath not God chosen the.....rich in faith Jas.2:5
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Unconditional Election or did God foreknow something in us Conditioned Salvation upon?
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Hath not God chosen the.....rich in faith Jas.2:5
Dorothy Mae
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D: Without faith it is impossible to please God.
- Jan 23, 2011
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That's an excellent question that has many different possible answers. Here's a list of possibilities:
Until you asked, I understood it to mean God chose angels just as He did humans, to be with Him forever. But now I'm not so sure and would have to study this further.
brightfame52
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I agree, but want to be honest and admit I fail all the time, therefore "Thank YOU Jesus! My Lord and My God, for saving me~!"
brightfame52
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Well if you could why dont you. What are the points I made, lets discuss that to start.
brightfame52
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Your position is predicated upon an unproven assumption, that there is only one version of us, the "fallen one" that actually came into existence.
Its more likely, before the foundation of the world, God in His omniscience had "two versions" of us in Mind, the "unfallen version" and the "fallen version" that actually came into existence. If God elects according to "a condition" in the "unfallen version" (which never comes into existence), Election could be BOTH conditional and unconditional.
That resolves the apparent conflict between Paul who says Election is unconditional (“not of ourselves”) and the apostle Peter who predicates election on what God foreknew, "according to":
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I thought I already answered this, but don't see it posted. If my other reply exists, please excuse the "double post". To answer your question, I always "assumed it meant them same thing as election of humans". But now I'm not so sure and have to study this future. Here is a list of possibilities. Until I study this, I have no preference:
QUESTION—What is meant by τῶν ἐκλεκτῶν ἀγγέλων ‘the chosen angels’?
1. It means that God had chosen the angels for some service [Alf, Herm, TNTC; CEV, NASB, NIV, REB]: and their chosen angels. The angels were chosen by God and Christ Jesus [CEV]. God or Christ has chosen these angels to be his heavenly servants [Alf, TH]. God chose them to do his special tasks [WBC], to be his agents to carry out his will [NIGTC], to serve him and to watch over the affairs of humans [TC, TNTC]. God also chose them to take part in the final judgment [NIGTC]. In this context, probably the angels were chosen to be God’s instruments of judgment [ICC].
2. It means the elect angels [AB, BNTC, ECC, EGT, Lns, My, NAC, NIGTC, NTC, WBC, WP; HCSB, KJV, NIV, NRSV]. The designation ‘elect’ contrasts them with the fallen angels [BNTC, EGT, NAC, NIGTC, NTC, WP]. Or, the contrast is not in focus [My, WBC], since the single term ‘angels’ consistently refers to angels who did not fall and adding ‘elect’ would be superfluous [WBC]. God elected angels just as he elects men to be his own forever [Lns]. He has chosen them to be the objects of his love [My]. God decreed from all eternity to give these angels the grace of perseverance so they would not fall as did other angels [NTC].
3. It means the holy angels [TG; NLT, TEV]. This is a way of speaking about the angels as a group, without trying to specify some action or state for which they were chosen [TG].
Blight, R. C. (2009). An Exegetical Summary of 1 Timothy (p. 320). SIL International.
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No I don’t.
However he does give us the freedom to choose, whether to obey Him or to turn away from Him and become lost.
He doesn’t force to remain “in Him”.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Here is how the scriptures instruct us to remain “in Christ”…
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
JLB
journeymanisnothing
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Yes anf God gave all mankind enough reason to have faith in him by our Lord Jesus. ?
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Dorothy Mae
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So are you comfortable with God deciding which men would go to hell and which angels likewise before they existed?
Dorothy Mae
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I did. What are the elected elected to do and to be?
Dorothy Mae
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We were discussing foreknowledge, and you aren't clear at all.
Now I’m not a party to this discussion yet but brothers, I can offer the following input. If you are going to base a theological understanding upon trying to understand the abilities of God (Omni~), you are not going to arrive at the truth.
An easier question to answer than how Gods foreknowledge affects free will is trying to answer how He can hear all the prayers prayed at the same time. That is easier and we accept it and don’t ask Him if He has a moment to hear our prayers right now (which would reflect our abilities.) The pursuit of “if God knows before we were born means….” leads to error in every “explanation” I’ve ever heard.
Now I’m not a party to this discussion yet but brothers, I can offer the following input. If you are going to base a theological understanding upon trying to understand the abilities of God (Omni~), you are not going to arrive at the truth.
An easier question to answer than how Gods foreknowledge affects free will is trying to answer how He can hear all the prayers prayed at the same time. That is easier and we accept it and don’t ask Him if He has a moment to hear our prayers right now (which would reflect our abilities.) The pursuit of “if God knows before we were born means….” leads to error in every “explanation” I’ve ever heard.
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Yes, God is Sovereign, Its His creation, He can do anything He wants. Praise be to God He did NOT Reprobate men or angels into Damnation. He could have, He has the right, but He didn't.
My position on this is simple, Calvin was wrong about Reprobation because he didn't realize its more likely God in His Omniscience, before He created, saw two versions of every creature. The Unfallen and the Fallen. We are the Fallen. But in the Mind of God, before the Fall, everyone had perfect free will, and all those who loved God back, when He loved them, can't be lost. Even Hell works for the Good of those who love God, if they fail to be saved in this life, they will in the next:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (Rom. 8:28-31 NKJ)
That the elect can die unsaved in this life, but repent in Hell, explains this verse. They will be saved. God predestined they cannot be lost:
10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
(2 Tim. 2:10-13 NKJ)
As for the Non elect, their "unfallen version" either chose evil like the devil or "sat on the fence". But God does not exclude them, they are given every opportunity to be saved in this fallen realm. And some might.
As everyone including the elect can be saved through faith ---all have an equal chance.
the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
(Rom. 2:5-16 NKJ)
You can see my full explanation of this on my site: EndTimeNews.Net "God's Plan for the Lost"
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Dorothy Mae
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God can do anything He wants but what He always wants is to do rightly. That limits Him. Choosing some for hell before they were born merely out of raw power (sovereignty) is wrong. What He does do is well said in 1 Chron 16:9
The eyes of the Lord go to and fro throughout the earth that they might find the one, whose heart is completely His so He might fully support him.
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An analogy: I'm your neighbor. I see you throw out what I believe is good stuff, and keep what I consider junk. But its your stuff. While I don't like what you do, I have no right (or standing) to object to what you do, its yours.
So we cannot deny God "could have done it" if He wanted to, its His stuff.
BUT you argue against something I don't believe happened. Your objection is irrelevant and immaterial to me as I reject Reprobation.
Consider this, the fact God did not reprobate is perhaps one of the infinite reasons His praise in heaven never ceases. Everything could be so much worse if God weren't Holy, the Only One Impeccably Good.
Contemplate how bad things could be if God were not the God of Bible, then you'll want to join the four living creatures and praise God 24/7 without ceasing!
8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!"
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 "You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created."
(Rev. 4:8-5:1 NKJ)
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Dorothy Mae
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correction
2 Chronicles 16:9
2 Chronicles 16:9
Dorothy Mae
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D: Neither you nor I nor God considers people junk nor do any of us considering “throwing out” people or say your own children as an action over which no one else can speak against. If a neighbor throws out their baby, we actually feel an obligation to object. So your analogy doesn’t work.
D: What did I say happened? I don’t recall relating something that happened?
D: No record of praise to Him in Heaven focuses on Him not reprobating. Doesn’t appear that anyone thinks like that there.
Exactly. No mention of him not reprobating.
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