Under the Law - what does it mean?

[George Muller]

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (TEN COMMANDMENTS)



Brother, the Law of sin and death has nothing to do with the ten commandments.

well lets look at the context?
Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I believe it is clear "the law of sin and death, is the Ten Commandments, which Paul is speaking of

How about this one?

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

NOW WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN STONE? THE TEN COMMANMDMENTS

 

[JLB]

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. NOW WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN STONE? THE TEN COMMANMDMENTS

I agree that the ten commandments were written in stone.

well lets look at the context?
Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Paul introduces the law of sin and death, along with his legal argument about the law of Moses here at the end of Romans 7.

Look at this with me in verse 23 -

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:22-23

So as he starts Romans Chapter 8, if we don't recognize what Paul just said at the end of Romans 7, we will just lump our understanding into a box called the law of Moses.

The Law of sin and death that is working in our members [flesh] is what Paul teaches us not to walk after when he says -

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death, [which is working in my flesh]. Romans 8:1-2

Paul explains in Chapter 5 -

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. Romans 5:12-14


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned...

This is the result of the law of sin and death, that was present in the Garden.


The law of gravity was also working in the garden, yet was not defined and recognized as such until thousands of years later, however the law of gravity and it's consequences were very much in affect from the beginning.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. NOW WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN STONE? THE TEN COMMANMDMENTS

I agree that the ten commandments were written in stone.

well lets look at the context?
Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Paul introduces the law of sin and death, along with his legal argument about the law of Moses here at the end of Romans 7.

Look at this with me in verse 23 -

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:22-23

So as he starts Romans Chapter 8, if we don't recognize what Paul just said at the end of Romans 7, we will just lump our understanding into a box called the law of Moses.

The Law of sin and death that is working in our members [flesh] is what Paul teaches us not to walk after when he says -

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death, [which is working in my flesh]. Romans 8:1-2

Paul explains in Chapter 5 -

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. Romans 5:12-14


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned...

This is the result of the law of sin and death, that was present in the Garden.


The law of gravity was also working in the garden, yet was not defined and recognized as such until thousands of years later, however the law of gravity and it's consequences were very much in affect from the beginning.


JLB

Even If I accept your point, which seems to ignore that Paul calls the Ten commandmnets "the ministry of death and condemnation" , you are still left with the fact that what Paul is teaching that the written code is producing sinful desires?
Now I believe it is clear that "the law of sin and death" that he is speaking of is in fact the Ten Commmandments. Also one should consider the rest of the epistle in which Paul takes much effort to explain?

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all

I could fill-up this page with scriptures that support my point, but I allow that you are well versed in the scriptures that proceed these statement by Paul in Romans 8?

 

[George Muller]

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death, [which is working in my flesh]. Romans 8:1-2

You must also know that there is reason to doubt the TR on this very verse? It has no effect upon my doctrine or point either way, but it could cause some to stumble at your assumptions.

 

[JLB]

Even If I accept your point, which seems to ignore that Paul calls the Ten commandments "the ministry of death and condemnation" , you are still left with the fact that what Paul is teaching that the written code is producing sinful desires?

Here's the real question - Are the ten commandments "the ministration of death", as you suppose?

Let's take a closer look at 2 Corinthians 3 -


7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 2 Corinthians 3:7-10


What did this ministry condemn?

George, do you think the Ten Commandments condemned people?


JLB

 

[George Muller]

Even If I accept your point, which seems to ignore that Paul calls the Ten commandments "the ministry of death and condemnation" , you are still left with the fact that what Paul is teaching that the written code is producing sinful desires?

Here's the real question - Are the ten commandments "the ministration of death", as you suppose?

Let's take a closer look at 2 Corinthians 3 -


7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 2 Corinthians 3:7-10


What did this ministry condemn?

George, do you think the Ten Commandments condemned people?


JLB

Of course the clear reading of that passage says that very thing, which goes along with the whole of Pauls teachings throughout his epistles.

Ro 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Paul explains this further in Gal. That the purpose of the law was to condemn us all, that we might come to Christ and be justified by faith.

 

[JLB]

Paul explains this further in Gal. That the purpose of the law was to condemn us all, that we might come to Christ and be justified by faith.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

The law was added, because of transgressions.

The children of Israel were in bondage to the Egyptians and under the influence of their gods for 10 Generations.

God gave the law of Moses to guide them which was a "fence" around the Abrahamic Covenant that allowed Him to continue blessing them with the blessings of Abraham, till the Seed should come.

Without God's blessing upon them they had no way of taking the promised land, nor of knowing what Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew by walking with God.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

Paul explains this further in Gal. That the purpose of the law was to condemn us all, that we might come to Christ and be justified by faith.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

The law was added, because of transgressions.

The children of Israel were in bondage to the Egyptians and under the influence of their gods for 10 Generations.

God gave the law of Moses to guide them which was a "fence" around the Abrahamic Covenant that allowed Him to continue blessing them with the blessings of Abraham, till the Seed should come.

Without God's blessing upon them they had no way of taking the promised land, nor of knowing what Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew by walking with God.


JLB

Im sorry JLB, I do not see how that changes the clear purpose of the law, to "condemn" and make the "WHOLE WORLD" guilty before God?

Ro 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 2 Corinthians 3:7-10

 

[Butch5]

What does it mean to be "under the law"?

Who's Law? What part of the Law? What is the Law?

The following scriptures are found in the New Testament of the Bible that include this phrase:

Rom_3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
1Co_9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co_9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
Gal_3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal_4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal_4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal_5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Also, how can one be "under the law to Christ"?

And why does Paul place emphasis on "being not without law to God"?

There is a total of six individual questions here, feel free to answer any one of them if not all of them. But please, may I ask that responders please keep clarity by answering the questions one at a time.

I hope that this thread will become a good teaching point for all of its participants.

Hi Joe,

Being under the Law is usually a reference to the Mosaic Law which the Jews were under. Being under the Law of Christ is keeping His commandments.

 

[JLB]

Paul explains this further in Gal. That the purpose of the law was to condemn us all, that we might come to Christ and be justified by faith.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

The law was added, because of transgressions.

The children of Israel were in bondage to the Egyptians and under the influence of their gods for 10 Generations.

God gave the law of Moses to guide them which was a "fence" around the Abrahamic Covenant that allowed Him to continue blessing them with the blessings of Abraham, till the Seed should come.

Without God's blessing upon them they had no way of taking the promised land, nor of knowing what Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew by walking with God.


JLB

Im sorry JLB, I do not see how that changes the clear purpose of the law, to "condemn" and make the "WHOLE WORLD" guilty before God?

Ro 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin... Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:9,19


... it saith to them who are under the law:

By what law are the Gentiles under sin. The Law of Moses?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"...through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses." (Acts 13:38-39 NIV)

To be under the law is to be under the authority and condemnation of the law of Moses.

The sinful nature is what gave the law of Moses it's authority over us. But in Christ the sinful nature is put to death and the law no longer has the authority to condemn and hold a person in the sin that has been forgiven in Christ.

 

[George Muller]

Paul explains this further in Gal. That the purpose of the law was to condemn us all, that we might come to Christ and be justified by faith.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

The law was added, because of transgressions.

The children of Israel were in bondage to the Egyptians and under the influence of their gods for 10 Generations.

God gave the law of Moses to guide them which was a "fence" around the Abrahamic Covenant that allowed Him to continue blessing them with the blessings of Abraham, till the Seed should come.

Without God's blessing upon them they had no way of taking the promised land, nor of knowing what Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew by walking with God.


JLB

Im sorry JLB, I do not see how that changes the clear purpose of the law, to "condemn" and make the "WHOLE WORLD" guilty before God?

Ro 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin... Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:9,19


... it saith to them who are under the law:

By what law are the Gentiles under sin. The Law of Moses?


JLB

Well of course the law condemned the gentile, I still do not see what point you are making, as it regards the "law of sin and death"?

 

[JLB]

Im sorry JLB, I do not see how that changes the clear purpose of the law, to "condemn" and make the "WHOLE WORLD" guilty before God?

Ro 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin... Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:9,19


... it saith to them who are under the law:

By what law are the Gentiles under sin. The Law of Moses?


JLB

Well of course the law condemned the gentile, I still do not see what point you are making, as it regards the "law of sin and death"?

The point I am making is, the law of Moses does not condemn Gentiles.

How can the law of Moses be applicable to Gentiles who:

Don't live in Israel.

Have never heard of the Law of Moses and don't know what it is.

Can't read or speak Hebrew.

How can you possibly think the Law of Moses can apply to Gentiles who live on another continent, have never been to Israel, can't read or understand Hebrew. Don't know what a Hebrew or a Jew is...

The only law that condemns both Jew and Gentile is the Law that condemned Adam, the Gentile to death.

The law of sin and death, which was from the beginning and applies to all humans.

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin... Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:9,19

The law the makes the whole world guilty before God is the Law of sin and death.

JLB

 

[George Muller]

The law the makes the whole world guilty before God is the Law of sin and death.

Are gentiles part of the "whole" world? I just dont see your point at all? The purpose of the law, was to make all guilty and condemn all. The ministry of death and condemnation. The Jews charged all gentiles as sinners by the law. With the authority of the law. You can try to turn this issue however you like but the " law of sin and death" is the Ten Commmandments, even in your understanding the gentile could not know they where sinners without the law, and it is the law that condemns them. So again I just do not see your point, nor how it works together in the truth of the gospel. Please explain further what you think the "ministry of death" as in 2 Cor 3 means?

 

[JLB]

I just dont see your point at all?

I see that.

even in your understanding the gentile could not know they where sinners without the law,

What law today condemns Gentile sinners living in America?


JLB

 

[George Muller]

I just dont see your point at all?

I see that.

even in your understanding the gentile could not know they where sinners without the law,

What law today condemns Gentile sinners living in America?


JLB

Well do you think that the gentiles in the world can be justified by the law but the Jews could not? Does the law not still bear witness to all mens sin?

Ga 4:21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

 

[George Muller]

Please explain further what you think the "ministry of death" as in 2 Cor 3 means?

I have taken the time to answer your questions, but you seem to ignore mine?

 

[JLB]

Well do you think that the gentiles in the world can be justified by the law but the Jews could not? Does the law not still bear witness to all mens sin?

To answer your question -

The Language "Ministry of Death" and "yoke of bondage" was a reference to trying to keep the law of Moses as a means to salvation.

Another words The Law that was added to a covenant that they were already in, became a "ministry of death and "a yoke of bondage" when they turned in into a religion called Judaism, whereby you earned salvation by keeping the works of the law.



The Law of Moses is obsolete and has Vanished away. Hebrews 8:13

The law was added until the Seed should come...

The Seed, Christ has come, Therefore the Law has vanished away.

The Law of Moses was never applicable to uncircumcised Gentiles, unless the Gentiles were circumcised and chose to convert.

One Example:

48 And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. 49 One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you."
Never was the Law of Moses applicable to Gentiles outside of Israel, and who had never heard the law.

The only Law that condemned the whole world to death was the law of sin and death that Adam violated, as a consequence sin entered the world and death to all men.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12


JLB

 

[George Muller]

Well do you think that the gentiles in the world can be justified by the law but the Jews could not? Does the law not still bear witness to all mens sin?

To answer your question -

The Language "Ministry of Death" and "yoke of bondage" was a reference to trying to keep the law of Moses as a means to salvation.

Another words The Law that was added to a covenant that they were already in, became a "ministry of death and "a yoke of bondage" when they turned in into a religion called Judaism, whereby you earned salvation by keeping the works of the law.



The Law of Moses is obsolete and has Vanished away. Hebrews 8:13

The law was added until the Seed should come...

The Seed, Christ has come, Therefore the Law has vanished away.

The Law of Moses was never applicable to uncircumcised Gentiles, unless the Gentiles were circumcised and chose to convert.

One Example:

48 And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. 49 One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you."
Never was the Law of Moses applicable to Gentiles outside of Israel, and who had never heard the law.

The only Law that condemned the whole world to death was the law of sin and death that Adam violated, as a consequence sin entered the world and death to all men.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12


JLB

Im not sure what point you think that makes? The Law was to make sin known "exceeding sinful"
The fact that a large part of the chruch believes they are under the law in part is clear. Many are attempting to justify themselves by the the Ten Commandments in part or whole.

Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Therefore connects this statement to what was said in plain words before.

Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter

I do not see how you could expect anyone to accept your understanding, and ignore what is written in clear terms and in clear context?

 

[George Muller]

The Law of Moses is obsolete and has Vanished away. Hebrews 8:13

The law was added until the Seed should come...

The Seed, Christ has come, Therefore the Law has vanished away.

The Law of Moses was never applicable to uncircumcised Gentiles, unless the Gentiles were circumcised and chose to convert.

I have seen you try to make this point to others, and in essence you are right, it was never Gods intention that the law be laid back upon believers, in any part as it relates to being justified.
But we see that after Paul was killed this very thing happened, just as he wrote it would.

Ac 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.