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Under the Law - what does it mean?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Joe Domingo
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now

If you were married ... would you remain faithful to your wife because you love her? Or because you are afraid of losing her? Or, because God commanded you to be loyal to her?
 
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If you were married ... would you remain faithful to your wife because you love her? Or because you are afraid of losing her? Or, because God commanded you to be loyal to her?

I'm genuinely trying to engage in a fact or two on these matters Joe. I understand that some can not come to grips with the simplicity of the observations.

Whatever scenario you want to 'set up' the conclusions are not going to be able to escape the fact that we all have sin and evil present with us just like Paul had.

IF for example you provide a 'set up scenario' above and use that to come to a conclusion that by 'doing whatever' that such believers no longer have indwelling sin and/or evil present that conclusion is entirely unreasoned.

PAUL was clear on this matter:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Paul made what I call 'an honest' conclusion. And I accept the 'facts' of Paul's conclusion.

s
 
If you were married ... would you remain faithful to your wife because you love her? Or because you are afraid of losing her? Or, because God commanded you to be loyal to her?

I'm genuinely trying to engage in a fact or two on these matters Joe. I understand that some can not come to grips with the simplicity of the observations.

Whatever scenario you want to 'set up' the conclusions are not going to be able to escape the fact that we all have sin and evil present with us just like Paul had.

IF for example you provide a 'set up scenario' above and use that to come to a conclusion that by 'doing whatever' that such believers no longer have indwelling sin and/or evil present that conclusion is entirely unreasoned.

PAUL was clear on this matter:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Paul made what I call 'an honest' conclusion. And I accept the 'facts' of Paul's conclusion.

s

I saw your last remark in the other post. Guess I just have to get to know your style:thumbsup

In terms of the hypothetical questions I had. I thought the exercise was rather simple.

I for one am a married man. And I have been devoted to my wife. Now the question for me is rather interesting. Do I remain devoted to her because of fear of losing her? Do I remain devoted to her because I love her? Do I remain devoted to her because God's seventh commandment requires it of me?

Well, I think all three are YES. But I want to go deeper than that ...

In which order do I place them if I had to?

I would think the order follows like this for me ...

Yes I remain devoted to her because God commandment me so to do.
Yes I will remain devoted to her because I love her.
Yes I remain devoted to her because I fear losing her.

God first.
Wife second.
Fear last.

Now, all this devotion going on and yet, sin and evil are presently in my flesh. And might I add, if my flesh tried to stray into lust. I have to fight it so I call on Jesus to help me. It's worked thus far.
 
Okay, fellas, I cleaned up this thread a little. It seems tempers were getting a little red. Let's try to keep our senses about us please. Thank you.
 
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So anyone who does not keep His commandments (every jot and tittle) is a liar, and we know that liars cannot inherit the kingdom, correct?

Oh by the way, I can't find a sliding scale in God's Word for those jots and tittles.
 
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So anyone who does not keep His commandments (every jot and tittle) is a liar, and we know that liars cannot inherit the kingdom, correct?

And those who without remorse BREAK all these laws are welcomed into the Kingdom as the righteous saints?

Oh by the way, I can't find a sliding scale in God's Word for those jots and tittles.

So I guess the best you can do is say that the Apostle John's letter is incorrect and that you are the expert and not him? I really don't think you believe that. So what are some of these jots and tittles you need a sliding scale for? These...

Exo 22:22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.

Well, it depends on who the widow or fatherless child is as to whether you can afflict them?

This one is misquoted a lot...

Lev 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

So, shaving a circle in your hair as the Egyptians did to honor Ra the sungod is not really all that bad? God doesn't really mind? A man shaving his beard in the manner of the heathen to honor their God's really doesn't violate the First Commandment? It's OK to have other gods as long as the Eternal is first?

Lev 20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

Any question here?

Lev 20:22 Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.
Lev 20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

Now, did that happen? Did Israel go into captivity to Nebuchadnezzar and NEVER return? How about Judah? A remnant only returned out of God's promise to David...

Jer 33:19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
Jer 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
Jer 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

And only Judah, Benjamin and part of Levi did return.
 
And those who without remorse BREAK all these laws are welcomed into the Kingdom as the righteous saints?


So you answer a question with a question?? And then go on quoting OT scripture to back up what you say.

Please answer the question, with an explanation of how this is true/not true or what is the cure for this problem, at least.
Give NT scripture if you like as the answer to this dilemma is found easily there or even OT to show the answer to the problem.

James says if you/me have broken one we have broken them ALL. No sliding scale.
 
I always find this type of thinking amusing. I cannot keep God's law perfectly in the flesh, so I will not even try. I'll just live any way I want to and God will accept me because I love God and He loves me...
The point that Paul was making is that the law produces sinful desires and strengthens sin in the flesh. I have posted these scriptures also to show how a believer fulfills the righteousness of the law.


Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law

So it is clear that no one can keep the written code, but only through love can one fulfill the law.
 
Lev 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

It doesn't say anything about circles or images in this scripture. It says what it says.

Why would you add to this scripture?


JLB
 
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So anyone who does not keep His commandments (every jot and tittle) is a liar, and we know that liars cannot inherit the kingdom, correct?

Oh by the way, I can't find a sliding scale in God's Word for those jots and tittles.

1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

If love fulfills all the law then to love one another as He gave commandment is keeping the commandments. Faith and love is the simplicty of Christ.
 
I always find this type of thinking amusing. I cannot keep God's law perfectly in the flesh, so I will not even try. I'll just live any way I want to and God will accept me because I love God and He loves me...
The point that Paul was making is that the law produces sinful desires and strengthens sin in the flesh. I have posted these scriptures also to show how a believer fulfills the righteousness of the law.


Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Ro 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law

So it is clear that no one can keep the written code, but only through love can one fulfill the law.

The point Paul was making is that the Law defines sin...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

And then goes on to refer to the tenth Commandment. He also made the point the problem is not with the Law...

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Now in the very next verse he defines the problem...

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The first part of the verse says that which is good, now what did he just say was Holy and just and good in the previous verse? The Law.

The problem is sin...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is the culprit, the breaking of the Law. Sin is what produces death...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Then he continues to say that by the Commandment, sin becomes exceedingly sinful. Refer back to verse 7. Sin is described in all it's vileness by the Law. It is defined by the Law. The Law tells us what is good and what is sin...

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Psa 19:11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
Psa 19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
Psa 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
 
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So anyone who does not keep His commandments (every jot and tittle) is a liar, and we know that liars cannot inherit the kingdom, correct?

Oh by the way, I can't find a sliding scale in God's Word for those jots and tittles.

1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

If love fulfills all the law then to love one another as He gave commandment is keeping the commandments. Faith and love is the simplicty of Christ.

So, if loving one another is the keeping of the Commandments, then shouldn't we keep the Commandments? Paul says so...

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Obeying these Commandments is summarized by loving your neighbor.
 
So, if loving one another is the keeping of the Commandments, then shouldn't we keep the Commandments? Paul says so...

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Obeying these Commandments is summarized by loving your neighbor.

:thumbsup

My neighbors do not experience any love from me when I show up in a building on Saturday, particularly if they are not there.

Paul encompasses every command in the text down to one very simple and compact commandment that we are to always carry in our hearts and to 'walk in.'

And in fact it is HIS SPIRIT in us doing so.

s
 
So, if loving one another is the keeping of the Commandments, then shouldn't we keep the Commandments? Paul says so...

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Obeying these Commandments is summarized by loving your neighbor.

:thumbsup

My neighbors do not experience any love from me when I show up in a building on Saturday, particularly if they are not there.

Paul encompasses every command in the text down to one very simple and compact commandment that we are to always carry in our hearts and to 'walk in.'

And in fact it is HIS SPIRIT in us doing so.

s

You didn't miss the point that loving Gdo is summed up in the first four, did you?
 
You didn't miss the point that loving Gdo is summed up in the first four, did you?

Any person can claim to love God, but if they don't love their brothers their claims of loving God are not truthful.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

So, if we stand in a church building on Saturday and condemn our fellow believers who do not see it 'only our way' and instead condemn them, what conclusion do such sights bring? In reality such observers are reflecting self justification to their sinning selves and condemnation to other believers, and not much more than that.

On the other hand if they do love other believers who don't 'see it your way' and you happen to show up in the pew on Saturday I would not expect God to hold it against you for either.

I 'personally' am not interested in fellowshipping in the damnation of other believers who don't see it 'my way.'

s
 
You didn't miss the point that loving Gdo is summed up in the first four, did you?

Any person can claim to love God, but if they don't love their brothers their claims of loving God are not truthful.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

So, if we stand in a church building on Saturday and condemn our fellow believers who do not see it 'only our way' and instead condemn them, what conclusion do such sights bring? In reality such observers are reflecting self justification to their sinning selves and condemnation to other believers, and not much more than that.

On the other hand if they do love other believers who don't 'see it your way' and you happen to show up in the pew on Saturday I would not expect God to hold it against you for either.

I 'personally' am not interested in fellowshipping in the damnation of other believers who don't see it 'my way.'

s

Couldn't be any clearer.

Thanks smaller.


JLB
 
You didn't miss the point that loving Gdo is summed up in the first four, did you?

Any person can claim to love God, but if they don't love their brothers their claims of loving God are not truthful.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

So, if we stand in a church building on Saturday and condemn our fellow believers who do not see it 'only our way' and instead condemn them, what conclusion do such sights bring? In reality such observers are reflecting self justification to their sinning selves and condemnation to other believers, and not much more than that.

On the other hand if they do love other believers who don't 'see it your way' and you happen to show up in the pew on Saturday I would not expect God to hold it against you for either.

I 'personally' am not interested in fellowshipping in the damnation of other believers who don't see it 'my way.'

s

Anyone can claim to love God, but what does God say? Put your money where your mouth is...

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Because love is summed up in the keeping of His Commandments...

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

There will be plenty who come before Christ saying I love you Jesus, love, love, love you and He will say...

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
 
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jesus made a clear distinction between the commandments in Moses writings and His Commanments.


46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

So we see yet again, that the "law keepers" mistakenly assume the "writings of Moses" are what Jesus referred to as His Commandments.


JLB
 
Anyone can claim to love God, but what does God say? Put your money where your mouth is...

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Love is His Commandment.

You continue to make them what they aren't.

s
 
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jesus made a clear distinction between the commandments in Moses writings and His Commanments.

46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

So we see yet again, that the "law keepers" mistakenly assume the "writings of Moses" are what Jesus referred to as His Commandments.

JLB

That's part of the difficulty of the conversations about 'Law.'

There is clear written evidence from Paul for example in Romans 13:8-10 that shows any commandment boiled down to only ONE COMMAND. The hard part is seeing how 'X/whatever' commandment really means that from the Law of Moses.

I do not discount one single commandment, period, and can not justify isolating and eradicating the Law of Moses as all of Moses Commands are Commands of GOD and not of Moses.

Jesus was clear that all the commands stand and are effective. The hard part will always boil down to how Paul derived his sight of ALL OF THE COMMANDS in Romans 13:8-10 to the simplicity that he conveys there, and Jesus conveyed this same simplicity in the Gospels as well.

That's the ONLY difficulty. How does one derive loving our neighbors from 'not eating pork' is one example. And yes, it CAN be done when the commands are understood spiritually and not 'carnally' or 'in an external fashion.'

We all know that the LAW is SPIRITUAL.

It might pay us all to try to see them that way rather than from a surface/external sight.

Paul uses allegories to crack open the Law, and gives many examples of 'how' he did this, one being in 1 Cor. 9 where he shows a completely different understanding of a very obscure Old Testament Law about muzzling an ox when it's treading out corn and derives an entirely NON-EXISTING NON-CONNECTED whatsoever meaning to that command.

How he gets there can be duplicated and the methods to do so are in the text to do so, but if anyone thinks these surface views are tough to remedy, allegory is nobody's picnic.

s
 
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