Walking by the Spirit...problem/solution??

[awaken]

As I understand some of the concepts involved here. Pastors, Bible teachers, etc., sometimes say that Christians are "spiritually alive," and non-Christians are "spiritually dead." However, these terms can be misleading unless we understand what they really mean. The Bible says that God is a spirit (John 4:24), and we are told that humans were created in God's image (Genesis 1:26-27). Even though we all have a physical body while we live on the physical earth, all humans have a spirit because we were made in God's image. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 says that we are made up of "spirit, soul and body." Your body is aware of the physical world around you, your spirit is aware of God within you, and everything else is your soul, which is aware of "self." Pastors and Bible teachers often describe the soul as being made up of your mind (what you think), your will (what you want), and your emotions (what you feel). Every human, whether Christian or non-Christian, is made up of a body, a soul, and a spirit.

When we are born we have the Adamic nature...the spirit of the world, the spirit of sin and death. I visualize this spirit as black. As a newborn baby our soul is empty of contents...because the soul does not have knowledge of the world ..but soon the newborn gains knowledge of the world around him.

I would like to take this thread and discuss the problem of walking by the Spirit vs. the flesh nature (spirit we are born with)..

 

[awaken]

When we say that non-Christians have a spirit but they are "spiritually dead," this is not intended to mean that they are dragging around a dead "spirit corpse" everywhere they go. The Bible never says that a spirit can die, whether it's a demonic spirit, an angelic spirit, a human spirit, or God's Spirit. Instead, being spiritually dead means being separated from the life that is in Christ. For example, notice how Jesus defined eternal life:

John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

In the above passage, Jesus defined eternal life in terms of a relationship with God. Notice that "eternal life" does not simply mean "existing eternally," because even the unrighteous people throughout history will exist eternally (eternal anguish in the Lake of Fire). All humans will exist eternally because our spirits can never die or be snuffed out of existence. However, only the righteous will have "life" eternally, because we will be in a relationship with God.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul covers this very well in Romans chapters 6-8. Our spirit is "quickened" when we're born of the Spirit. Then begins the journey of transforming our natural "old man" into the spiritual "new man". We have a lot of bad habits and self-reliance that need to be turned over to the Spirit's control. It's a walk from newborn to maturity, and a lot of Christians get stuck in their soulish condition; babes in need of the milk, unable to partake of the meat...such as the Corinthian Church. They were controlled by the old man of the flesh, and Paul exhorts them to move on to maturity.

Even after reaching the point where we no longer commit obvious blatant sins, we are hard pressed to let go of "self". We often go before the Lord in our zeal to "do for" the Lord instead of being led by the Holy Spirit. We can take pride in our own soul power of the mind, and can quench the Spirit with our fleshly desires to become righteous...even boasting in it. If one doesn't understand the soul's power to deceive self, one can't move on to truly walking in the Spirit.

 

[awaken]

One problem I see and have experienced myself is that we try to discipline the flesh to do good and think we are living by the spirit...

Even a child that does not know Christ can be disciplined to good..but that does not mean he is walking by the spirit...

An example..two children playing with toys in a room... child #1 sees Child # 2 playing with a toy.
Child #1 thinks (with his soul) that toy is bring happiness...I want happiness..I want that toy..I will take that toy. The child is now coveting! The nature of sin and death is totally about serving self. If this child is not disciplined he could grow up to be a thief.

Now..if there is an adult there and sees this behavior in the children..and corrects them firmly. The child #1 will have a change in thought (with his soul)...taking a toy from another causes punishment/pain....pain brings unhappiness..the pain is worse than the happiness of the toy.

Notice that the spirit of sin and death within the child has not changed. The soul has changed it's mind..so this child is living by his own mind and decisions made because of discipline. If this child grows up and is a good person because of his choices..this does not mean he is walking by the spirit. Whether he lives by his soul or his spirit (sin nature at this point)..it is still selfish living. God is not involved with the the process. The man at this point is trying to be good because of how he was taught growing up.

My point so far is that...being a good person because we are raised right does not mean we are walking by the Spirit. At this point the grown #1 child has just learn to discipline his sin nature.

 

[Dave...]

awaken

I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure what you're going after.

Try to always make the distinction in scripture and in your posts when it's/you're speaking of our spirit (small "s"), and the Holy Spirit (capitol "S"). The NKJV Bible is accurate in that way. Some translations are all over the place. Living, praying, talking, walking by the 'Spirit'...meaning the Holy Spirit, shouldn't be confused with doing those things in our 'spirit', which, I'm sure that you'd agree, is very different.

I like to think of a non christians, or a non regenerated spirit as alive in the general sense of being a functioning spirit, but dead in the sense of not being alive to the things of God. That sounds like what you believe too.

Your father and child analogy is very similar to how God works in us, His children spiritually. The parellels are meant to be drawn.

We don't always know why He asks us to do things, or why He asks us not to do certain things, but we know the things that He does approve of and the things that He doesn't. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom because that's the foundation of our spiritually maturing and learning, just as it is in a more general sense when we fear our earthly parents as children.

As new Christians we fear discipline, and we don't want to anger our heavenly Father, just as a child doesn't want to anger their earthly parent but wants to please them. This fear of discipline, and our wanting to please Him (childlike faith) are used to protect us spiritually when we are still babes, just as our earthly parents used them to protect us as children. As we learn and mature spiritually, we begin to see that this fear was used by our heavenly Father to protect us. In this way God developes trust, teaching us, using that fear [of God] to protect us as spiritual babes, and when that fear matures, or is perfected, it becomes love. (1 John 4:17-18)

Non Christians cannot mature spiritually to the things of God. They have no relationship with Him.

Sound about right?

 

[Adullam]

You are highlighting the difference between holiness and righteousness. Holiness we get as we walk in the power of Christ. His presence is there in that walk. But righteousness is learned through training. This is not to be confused with God's own righteousness which in fact is holiness. The difference between these has been basically obscured in our time since so few have experienced real holiness or desire it with any depth.

 

[awaken]

I agree with what everyone has posted here...

But what I am studing and trying to figure out is the difference in walking by the Spirit and walking by the flesh/soul. The illustration of the children was to show that we can be taught to be good and do good things..but this is not walking by the Spirit.

Lets say this child that has grown into a man spent his whole life trying to be good. He has learned to make decisions based only on the information in his soul ..this man is a "good man" by worlds standards. Now this man hears the gospel of Jesus Christ..born again..his spirit is now born again which we call "new nature".

This man can now understand the things of God..1 Cor. 2:12 "NOw we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." (Dave..here the spirit is small letters so this is not the Holy Spirit, right? This is a new nature/spirit?)

Most of us have a lifelong pattern of living good lives according to how we were raised and the decisions we make...but would this be living by the Spirit?

 

[Mysteryman]

Walking by the Spirit, will produce the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is not something that can be learned.

One can learn right from wrong. Or how to be careful crossing the street. Or taught, hot can burn you and things that are cold, such as ice. These are learned processes.

A child can learn to share their toys. Thus when they grow up they have learned the benifit of sharing. But sharing is not the fruit of the Spirit. It is a learned process, by which sharing produces a good result, like friendships.

Love , Joy, Peace, etc. is an inside understanding , which originates from within the New Man. For instance, You will love someone, by telling them the truth, even if you yourself are the one that will get hurt by doing so. And even during trials and tribulations, you stay peaceful. Jesus exhibited this all the time.

 

[Dave...]

This man can now understand the things of God..1 Cor. 2:12 "NOw we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." (Dave..here the spirit is small letters so this is not the Holy Spirit, right? This is a new nature/spirit?)

Here's the NKJV which is accurate in that regard.

1 Corinthians 2:10-12 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

Here's a link to the NKJV. That's what I use.
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Ne ... KJV-Bible/

Galatians 3:2-3 says believers are "being made perfect -- 'by the Spirit' is implied, "having already begun in the Spirit". Galatians 5:16-18 says "I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Romans 6-8, as someone suggested earlier is really good here too.

Unlike the baptism with the Holy Spirit which places us into the Body of Christ (the receiving of the indwelling Holy Spirit as a result of faith is the Spirit baptism), being filled with the Spirit is an experience and should be continuous. Compare (Colossians 3:16-25) with (Ephesians 5:19-33). Macarthur says..."As believers yield the moment by moment decisions of life to His control, they "walk by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16). The baptism of the Spirit grants the power that the filling with the Spirit unleashes."

Also, what we call good is a whole diiferent ballgame from what God calls good. Without the Spirit of God, man cannot produce anything good or pleasing to God. John 14:5 Jesus said "...for without Me you can do nothing.", 'nothing good' implied. Same with 1 Corinthains 4:7.

Dave

 

[glorydaz]

Also, what we call good is a whole diiferent ballgame from what God calls good. Without the Spirit of God, man cannot produce anything good or pleasing to God. John 14:5 Jesus said "...for without Me you can do nothing.", 'nothing good' implied. Same with 1 Corinthains 4:7.

Dave

Amen. We can do many things that appear good to men, and seem right to us, but unless they've been directed by the Holy Spirit within us they are as filthy rags to God. We must always wait upon the Lord and not go before him with our good intentions. His ways are not ours, and we may not understand why He directs as He does. He prompts us to go...so we go. If we don't have peace, we wait. I've found man likes to direct his own ways...what he thinks are pleasing to God and he merely frustrates the plan of God. We're His servants waiting on His commands.

 

[awaken]

Also, what we call good is a whole diiferent ballgame from what God calls good. Without the Spirit of God, man cannot produce anything good or pleasing to God. John 14:5 Jesus said "...for without Me you can do nothing.", 'nothing good' implied. Same with 1 Corinthains 4:7.

Dave

Amen. We can do many things that appear good to men, and seem right to us, but unless they've been directed by the Holy Spirit within us they are as filthy rags to God. We must always wait upon the Lord and not go before him with our good intentions. His ways are not ours, and we may not understand why He directs as He does. He prompts us to go...so we go. If we don't have peace, we wait. I've found man likes to direct his own ways...what he thinks are pleasing to God and he merely frustrates the plan of God. We're His servants waiting on His commands.

I agree with all of this..but and what others have posted!

But this man in the story that did not accept Christ until later in life..he has been trained by the soul/mind. So after salvation this man has no idea how to follow the Spirit. His lifelong pattern has been to walk according to his soul. I have experience that we have to learn to walk by the spirit.

True..it is the fruits of the Spirit that will be produced as we learn to walk by the spirit. But also the gifts of the Spirit work through the reborn "spirit" of man by the anointing of the Holy Ghost. They do not operate in the soul. They originate with God and flow throught the "spirit of Him" which is inside the heart of every born again person.