Was Paul Heretical in Teaching Sinless Perfection?

[JLB]

Confession certainly comes before water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sin.

As well all plainly see, confessing our sins is the way born again Christians receive forgiveness of sins.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10


The scripture plainly states that if you the born again Christian, say you have no sin, or that you have not sinned, you are deceived, and you are a liar.


I believe what the scripture says.


Do you confess your sins to God when you pray?

If you don’t then you are not forgiven and will die in your sins when Jesus Christ paid the price for you to be forgiven.


And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

• He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world

• and not for ours only but also for the whole world

Our sin = Christians

The world = unbelievers





JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

As well all plainly see, confessing our sins is the way born again Christians receive forgiveness of sins.

If he is a sinner, he is still walking in darkness
The confession of 1 John 1:9 is the first step to walking in the light-God, (1 John 1:7), in Whom is no sin. (1 John 1:5)

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

Perfectly true, for those walking in darkness-sin.
The "we" of this verse are those who walk in darkness-sin

The scripture plainly states that if you the born again Christian, say you have no sin, or that you have not sinned, you are deceived, and you are a liar.

If one is a born again Christian, (the only kind), one is incapable of bringing forth the devil's fruit. (1 John 3:9)

I believe what the scripture says.

Me too.

Do you confess your sins to God when you pray?

I did, before I was washed by the blood of Christ for the remission of my past sins.
With my rebirth from God's seed, I won't sin again, so have no need to keep being forgiven.

If you don’t then you are not forgiven and will die in your sins when Jesus Christ paid the price for you to be forgiven.

He has accomplished His work in me.
I won't keep crucifying Him over and over again.
It is written..."For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6)

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

• He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world
• and not for ours only but also for the whole world

Our sin = Christians
The world = unbelievers

Every Christian was once an unbeliever.
If the sinners would submit to God, they too could be believers.
They could serve one Master.

 

[Grailhunter]

Are we perfect or are we perfected?
Better question; What is grace and how does it function?

Now if you look up the Christian definition of Grace you will get more than one explanation and probably end up confused….it does not matter if you are getting it from a book, the web, a priest, a preacher, and surprisingly enough even from theologians the explanations and definitions can be different.

Now this definition is secular and it is close…..they got sinners right.
(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

Now my explanation comes with an interesting story….from an Ozark campfire to Notre Dame in Paris.
But first the theological side of it
When Yeshua passed on the Cross the veil or curtain in the temple ripped in two. Matthew 27:51….Why? What did it mean? It meant that there was no longer a separation between us and Yahweh, God Almighty anymore.

If you look through the OT you will see that Yahweh always separated Himself from humans with something….a veil, a curtain, a door, distance etc. Why? It has to do with the nature of Yahweh and yes it is different than Yeshua. The nature of God? LOL We will not dive into that to far, but it will suffice to say by His nature He is intolerant to sin. God will kill or destroy sin or evil if it gets to close to Him. Not entirely accurate but I will call it a knee jerk reaction because it will happen always and forever. Back in the day they would tie a rope around the priest's waist so that if he did something wrong and Yahweh struck Him dead they could pull him out.

As far as the Mosaic Law goes it is said that if you break one Law you break them all? Why? Because if they sinned one time they could not have a close relationship with God…ie Salvation. It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4-10 in context. The only thing sacrifices did was appease the wrath of God…same thing goes for the Escape Goat. Leviticus 16:1-34 in context. The nation of Israel was not saved it appeased the wrath of God against the nation.

So the bottom line is that Yahweh does not tolerate sin or evil at all for any reason. Yahweh cannot associate with sin or evil. Yahweh will not let Himself be close to sin or evil. So how could it be that we are not separated from Him anymore? How are we supposed to have a relationship with Him? How can we be the sons and daughters of the living God Almighty?

Now when Christ passed on the Cross and that veil that separated us from Yahweh was tore in two…..that did not change Yeshua's Father, God Almighty. He was and is still intolerant of sin and evil. So something had to change about us for us to have a relationship with Him….to be adopted sons and daughters of God. How did that happen?

The Lamb of God. They nailed a God to a Cross! Christ’s perfect sacrifice paid the price of sin. He redeemed us, He justified us, the propitiation, He sanctified us. Of coarse all of this has to do with Salvation but in function, it is the Grace of Christ that makes it so that we can be reconciled to Yahweh. It is the Grace of Christ that allows the possibility of a relationship with God Almighty. It is the Grace of Christ that make it so that we can be the adopted sons and daughters of Yahweh God Almighty. All this happen because the Grace of Christ perfects us….that is from God’s perspective. God does not see any sin in us….if He did He could not have a relationship with us.

Saving Grace is an inaccurate phrase even though Grace is definitely part of Salvation. But Grace does not forgive sins….this is usually reiterated by the Once Saved Always Saved crowd and it is completely wrong. Grace in not a license to sin. Nor is it a perpetual forgiveness machine like the Universalism people contend.

It is a fact that you can sin your way out of Salvation. Christ is there for us, He can forgive us our sins but He is not a moron and you cannot play Him for a fool. We all sin, and we can ask Christ for forgiveness, but Christ expects us to learn from our mistakes. Lifestyle sins….A homosexual or murderer cannot end each day with a prayer for forgiveness and not expect to go to Hell.

Anyway, I have had a functional description of Grace explained to me that I guess is worldwide. I first heard this years ago at a campfire during Bible camp from a Southern Baptist preacher, I heard it again while having lunch with a priest near Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, and I heard it again from a Professor at Cambridge University in England once again having lunch at an open air cafe. The way they explained it was that Grace was like a white cloak that was given to us by Christ and when God Almighty looks at us all He sees is a white cloak of perfection. This is the sort of thing that scriptures are referring to when they mention perfection. Underneath that cloak we are just people…Christians and none of us are sinless or perfect and some are better than others but because of that cloak all Christians can have a relationship with God Almighty. Because of that cloak we could be adopted as sons and daughters of Yahweh.

Now is this the best functional explanation of Grace? I like it. Can we comprehend all the aspects of Grace? Probably not.

Bottom line, no human can be perfect, we can be good and do good but we still count on Christ to make up the difference.

The Johnny Appleseed of Truth

Continued.....

 

[Grailhunter]

Colossians 1:22
He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Roman 3:20-24
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Ephesians 2:1-10
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our fleshand following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Romans 5:20-21 and 6-14
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Are we perfect or are we perfected?
Better question; What is grace and how does it function?

Now if you look up the Christian definition of Grace you will get more than one explanation and probably end up confused….it does not matter if you are getting it from a book, the web, a priest, a preacher, and surprisingly enough even from theologians the explanations and definitions can be different.

Now this definition is secular and it is close…..they got sinners right.
(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

Now my explanation comes with an interesting story….from an Ozark campfire to Notre Dame in Paris.
But first the theological side of it
When Yeshua passed on the Cross the veil or curtain in the temple ripped in two. Matthew 27:51….Why? What did it mean? It meant that there was no longer a separation between us and Yahweh, God Almighty anymore.

If you look through the OT you will see that Yahweh always separated Himself from humans with something….a veil, a curtain, a door, distance etc. Why? It has to do with the nature of Yahweh and yes it is different than Yeshua. The nature of God? LOL We will not dive into that to far, but it will suffice to say by His nature He is intolerant to sin. God will kill or destroy sin or evil if it gets to close to Him. Not entirely accurate but I will call it a knee jerk reaction because it will happen always and forever. Back in the day they would tie a rope around the priest's waist so that if he did something wrong and Yahweh struck Him dead they could pull him out.

As far as the Mosaic Law goes it is said that if you break one Law you break them all? Why? Because if they sinned one time they could not have a close relationship with God…ie Salvation. It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4-10 in context. The only thing sacrifices did was appease the wrath of God…same thing goes for the Escape Goat. Leviticus 16:1-34 in context. The nation of Israel was not saved it appeased the wrath of God against the nation.

So the bottom line is that Yahweh does not tolerate sin or evil at all for any reason. Yahweh cannot associate with sin or evil. Yahweh will not let Himself be close to sin or evil. So how could it be that we are not separated from Him anymore? How are we supposed to have a relationship with Him? How can we be the sons and daughters of the living God Almighty?

Now when Christ passed on the Cross and that veil that separated us from Yahweh was tore in two…..that did not change Yeshua's Father, God Almighty. He was and is still intolerant of sin and evil. So something had to change about us for us to have a relationship with Him….to be adopted sons and daughters of God. How did that happen?

The Lamb of God. They nailed a God to a Cross! Christ’s perfect sacrifice paid the price of sin. He redeemed us, He justified us, the propitiation, He sanctified us. Of coarse all of this has to do with Salvation but in function, it is the Grace of Christ that makes it so that we can be reconciled to Yahweh. It is the Grace of Christ that allows the possibility of a relationship with God Almighty. It is the Grace of Christ that make it so that we can be the adopted sons and daughters of Yahweh God Almighty. All this happen because the Grace of Christ perfects us….that is from God’s perspective. God does not see any sin in us….if He did He could not have a relationship with us.

Saving Grace is an inaccurate phrase even though Grace is definitely part of Salvation. But Grace does not forgive sins….this is usually reiterated by the Once Saved Always Saved crowd and it is completely wrong. Grace in not a license to sin. Nor is it a perpetual forgiveness machine like the Universalism people contend.

It is a fact that you can sin your way out of Salvation. Christ is there for us, He can forgive us our sins but He is not a moron and you cannot play Him for a fool. We all sin, and we can ask Christ for forgiveness, but Christ expects us to learn from our mistakes. Lifestyle sins….A homosexual or murderer cannot end each day with a prayer for forgiveness and not expect to go to Hell.

Anyway, I have had a functional description of Grace explained to me that I guess is worldwide. I first heard this years ago at a campfire during Bible camp from a Southern Baptist preacher, I heard it again while having lunch with a priest near Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, and I heard it again from a Professor at Cambridge University in England once again having lunch at an open air cafe. The way they explained it was that Grace was like a white cloak that was given to us by Christ and when God Almighty looks at us all He sees is a white cloak of perfection. This is the sort of thing that scriptures are referring to when they mention perfection. Underneath that cloak we are just people…Christians and none of us are sinless or perfect and some are better than others but because of that cloak all Christians can have a relationship with God Almighty. Because of that cloak we could be adopted as sons and daughters of Yahweh.

Now is this the best functional explanation of Grace? I like it. Can we comprehend all the aspects of Grace? Probably not.

Bottom line, no human can be perfect, we can be good and do good but we still count on Christ to make up the difference.

The Johnny Appleseed of Truth

Continued.....

So much for grace then.
If it can't free us from sin, what good is it ?
Your summary seems do ignore rebirth from God's seed.
Those born from God's seed cannot bring forth the devil's fruit.
God's grace can make you perfectly righteous.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Colossians 1:22
He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Roman 3:20-24
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Ephesians 2:1-10
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our fleshand following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Romans 5:20-21 and 6-14
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

That summary is something I can live with.
Doesn't "For sin shall no longer be your master" equate to sinlessness ?

 

[Grailhunter]

That summary is something I can live with.
Doesn't "For sin shall no longer be your master" equate to sinlessness ?

The Calvinists have an answer for freeing us from sin. We are biological robots and only sin if God predestined it. LOL

And that is the point, as long as there is free-will we can choose to sin.

And people have different concerns regarding sinning. If you study sin you have to ask yourself why would you want to? If you cannot control yourself that is a whole different issue.
Sometimes I think that some people think God defined morality and sin so we cannot enjoy life. That is simply not true. God informed us about sins to keep us from making the same mistakes people have been making for millenniums. And causing the grief and harm that those sins cause. These sins cause grief and harm in this world and in our lives….why would we want grief?

On the flipside Christ gives us an example of how we can help each other in our journey in Christianity. I mention Good Deeds and people think I am saying you have to sell your house and wander the streets penniless. It is just a matter of giving a little to charity commensurate with your financial status. A millionaire may but a thousand dollars in that collection bag that they pass around in church, then again someone may only be able to afford a penny. The Truth is, it is all the same to Christ. So if that is all you can afford make sure to give it. Mark 12:41-44 Of course you need to go to church to do that.

I do counseling, not because I want to or have an office that says counselor. Sometimes it in a elevator or a bathroom or campfire during deer season. I have a look about me? Whatever that is, and over the years I have counseled people that thought they could not stop sinning. I am not talking about perfection. But a lot of times it is because they do not know what is considered a sin.

Christianity is a religion of morality, no two ways about it but it is kinda like chess, if you want to win you have to know the rules. Most people do not know what is sinful, so it is a good idea to study that. In the thread Grailhunter’s Classroom at this link I have an essay on what is not sin. Post 238

https://christianforums.net/threads/grailhunters-classroom.100975/post-1839013

Over the centuries Christianity has come up with a lot of Man-made sins that do not mean a thing. And it has caused a lot of problems. I refer to it as a minefield of real and fake sins and the problem it causes it that a person may step on a real sin trying to avoid a fake sin. And there are so many of these fake sins that it distracts our focus on what we should be doing as a Christian. The truth is Christ pushed the limits of the Mosaic Law to get what He needed done.

The real sins are specifically listed in the scriptures.

Of course I recommend reading the through the tread Grailhunter’s Classroom

 

[Free]

With the thread that perfect obedience to God is a heresy, I thought I would search out some of the things Paul said about it.
Rom 3:20-22..." Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:"
I don't consider that heretical.
I have faith that his words are true, so the righteousness of God can be mine through that faith !

Rom 12:1..."I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."
I don't consider that heretical.
I have 66 more verses with more commands and exhortations to purity, righteousness, and perfection.
Besides the ones from Paul, I also have 34 more from the other apostles that agree with Paul.

We can be perfectly sinless, here on earth.

Paul wasn't a heretic precisely because he never taught sinless perfection while we are on earth.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Paul wasn't a heretic precisely because he never taught sinless perfection while we are on earth.

He did say...
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
If that isn't sinless perfection/righteousness, what is it ?

BTW, Peter agreed with him...
"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

 

[Free]

He did say...
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
If that isn't sinless perfection/righteousness, what is it ?

BTW, Peter agreed with him...
"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

And, yet, not one of those implies or states that we can live in sinless perfection in this life. We are to continually seek to be perfect, to be holy, but that is never promised or given as a possibility before heaven. This is why John clearly says we are to continually confess our sins. It is also why he says that those who claim to be sinless are self-deceived, don’t have the truth, make God a liar, and don’t have his word in them. In other words, anyone who says they are sinless cannot be a true believer.

 

[Hopeful 2]

And, yet, not one of those implies or states that we can live in sinless perfection in this life.

?

We are to continually seek to be perfect, to be holy, but that is never promised or given as a possibility before heaven. This is why John clearly says we are to continually confess our sins. It is also why he says that those who claim to be sinless are self-deceived, don’t have the truth, make God a liar, and don’t have his word in them. In other words, anyone who says they are sinless cannot be a true believer.

If it is impossible, what is the point of trying ?
Paul wrote..."And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

Are you still dead in trespasses and sins ?
Are you still walking according to the course of this world ?
Is the spirit of disobedience still in you ?
Are you still by nature a child of wrath ?
If not, you are sinlessly perfect, made righteous by faith in Christ.
And these verses apply to you..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22)

Got faith ?

 

[Grailhunter]

He did say...
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
If that isn't sinless perfection/righteousness, what is it ?

BTW, Peter agreed with him...
"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

Since I debate this stuff all the time.....Just for the fun of it....Guess how many scriptures I can give you about sinning and warnings about sinning?

 

[JLB]

If he is a sinner, he is still walking in darkness
The confession of 1 John 1:9 is the first step to walking in the light-God, (1 John 1:7), in Whom is no sin. (1 John 1:5)

Perfectly true, for those walking in darkness-sin.
The "we" of this verse are those who walk in darkness-sin

If one is a born again Christian, (the only kind), one is incapable of bringing forth the devil's fruit. (1 John 3:9)

Me too.

I did, before I was washed by the blood of Christ for the remission of my past sins.
With my rebirth from God's seed, I won't sin again, so have no need to keep being forgiven.

He has accomplished His work in me.
I won't keep crucifying Him over and over again.
It is written..."For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6)

Every Christian was once an unbeliever.
If the sinners would submit to God, they too could be believers.
They could serve one Master.

You clearly don’t believe scripture, because scripture teaches Christians to confess our sins so that we are forgiven and cleansed.

You fall into the category of those who John says have deceived themselves into believing they have no sin.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10



Do you confess your sins to God, so you can be forgiven?







JLB

 

[Consecrated Life]

With the thread that perfect obedience to God is a heresy, I thought I would search out some of the things Paul said about it.

Besides the ones from Paul, I also have 34 more from the other apostles that agree with Paul.

We can be perfectly sinless, here on earth.

1Ti 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Good , now Agree with Paul on his claim that " I am chief of sinners"
Notice he says he IS not WAS chief of sinners ?
Present tense mind you.

And then you will subtract from your well demonstrated colossal lack of spiritual discernment

 

[Grailhunter]

I will try to help reconcile some of this…..

History is sometimes hard to get the feel of what was going on….putting yourself in that time period 2000 years ago, in a completely different culture and set of circumstances and not only a different language but a Pagan language that did not have Christian religious terms or moral precepts….So the Apostles were tasked with having to adapt the Pagan words to reflect Christian concepts. Even some thing as simple as the Greek word for sin had no moral implications so they had to modify the definition of it. So it takes some study of all this to understand what they were writing about.

Part of it is realizing just how drastic a change Christianity was. Besides the fact that a God was walking and living among us. Besides the fact that the context of morality was changing, not only the specifics of it but also the spirit of it. For example Yeshua would never approve of a father selling his daughter as a sex slave…..concubine. Which was allowed under the Mosaic Law. That kind of spirit does not make it into the New Covenant. Christ rejected the general “hard heartedness” of the Mosaic Law and the Old Covenant.

It hard for us today to put ourselves in their place and fully understand the burden and reality of the Mosaic Law. Alternatively it is hard to understand the drastic change of being “disconnect” from the Mosaic Law. And the Apostles were Jews and were still referencing the Law, it is in the back of their minds. Now their understanding of sin is pretty much the same as ours, except it is mostly and specifically a transgression against God the Father.

Yahweh gave all authority to Yeshua….regarding us. (That does not mean He stepped down from His throne and picked up a broom and started sweeping the floors….Yahweh is still God Almighty.) When Christ redeemed us our transgressions were redirected from Yahweh to Yeshua. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8–9). Yeshua will judge our transgressions. But the Apostles were still juggling the differences between the Mosaic Law and Christ’s teachings. Where as technically the errors of Christians are not sins….against God the Father. If you are in Christ you cannot sin against God the Father. This is their perspective when they are writing.

Then we get into the blood and sacrifice of Yeshua and what that did to the whole system of sin in the Old Testament, the whole system of sin and tally that was never erased. For Christians Yeshua not only took that tablet and erased the sins, He broke the tablet. No longer would our sins be written on that tablet.

So the Apostles used the word sin and not always in this context and it can get a little confusing but try to understand it from their perspective. The morality of it all is clear even though the words in the verse may seem to say Christians cannot sin….you do not want to perceive it like you cannot see the forest for the trees. You have to look at the big picture.

What you are not going to find is a verse that says a homosexual Christian is not sinning or a Christian that murders is not sinning etc.

The big picture of sin and judgment…
2nd Corinthians 5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Again....If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1st John 1:8-9

But also consider the context….God so loved the world….John 3:16.…He loved the world enough to give his only begotten Son to go through a horror to make things right….God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8 This whole big picture is about God wanting a relationship with us because He loves us. So as Christians we should do our best to be good and do good and expect a just and merciful Judgment from Christ. Walk with Christ everyday. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead…1st Peter 1:3

 

[Consecrated Life]

I will try to help reconcile some of this…..

For example Yeshua would never approve of a father selling his daughter as a sex slave…..concubine. Which was allowed under the Mosaic Law. That kind of spirit does not make it into the New Covenant. Christ rejected the general “hard heartedness” of the Mosaic Law and the Old Covenant.

Jesus testified that the "hard heartedness" portions of the law "allowed" by Moses were never "approved" by any of His Word beginning at Genesis.

Mat 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus testified that the "hard heartedness" portions of the law "allowed" by Moses were never "approved" by any of His Word beginning at Genesis.

Mat 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Yep the Mosaic Law did not start in Genesis. But the Mosaic Law defined the Old Covenant.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Since I debate this stuff all the time.....Just for the fun of it....Guess how many scriptures I can give you about sinning and warnings about sinning?

OT, or NT ?
Or both ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

You clearly don’t believe scripture, because scripture teaches Christians to confess our sins so that we are forgiven and cleansed.

If a man commits a sin, and all have, he is to confess it and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)
He can then start walking in the light-God.
Sinners walk in darkness-sin.

You fall into the category of those who John says have deceived themselves into believing they have no sin.

I'ld like to see that quote, please.
If you are referring to 1 John 1:10, those people, like in verse 6 and 8, walk in darkness-sin, so can't say have have no sin.
Those who walk in light-God can say they have no sin, as there is no sin in God !

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

As I said, those walking in darkness-sin, cannot say they have no sin...or that they have fellowship with God.

Do you confess your sins to God, so you can be forgiven?

I did, after my repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of said sins.

I don't know if it is permissible here, but as you have asked me if I have confessed my past sins, I have to ask if you did too ?
And if you did, has your repentance from sin held up since then ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

1Ti 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Yep, Paul was the worst sinner saved by Christ.
Why ?
Because he persecuted the church.
Was he still persecuting the church after his conversion ?
No.

Good , now Agree with Paul on his claim that " I am chief of sinners"
Notice he says he IS not WAS chief of sinners ?
Present tense mind you.

Yep, he will always be the worst of sinners saved by Christ, because of his former persecution of the Lord's church.
Even today, after the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and me.

And then you will subtract from your well demonstrated colossal lack of spiritual discernment

What other sins, by Paul, are noted in scripture ?
He was probably thinking of what he would have ended up with for his sins, hell, when he wrote..."There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
And..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
And..."And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

Paul didn't remain the worst of sinners after his repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and his rebirth from God's seed.