Was Paul Heretical in Teaching Sinless Perfection?

[Hopeful 2]

Paul has that covered to .
He said that before he was saved he was oblivious to his sin.
Never lost a wink of sleep over it.

You are misquoting me.
Romans 7 should make it clear that he was aware of, and troubled by, the sin he could not stop while under the Law.
His flesh over-ruled his mind, while he unsuccessfully tried to obey the Law.
By the end of his narrative, however, he makes it known that his flesh was destroyed and his Christ centered mind is now in control.

1 Timothy 1:13
13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

Yep, once was.
But not any longer.
Praise be to God !

 

[electedbyHim]

No, I wouldn't.
Some of Rom 7 is a narrative of Paul's past.

Verses 14-24 are part of Paul's narrative of his past.

Yes, he did concur with the Law of God in his inner man, even though he couldn't manifest it because of the law of sin he felt was in his members.
I am glad Paul wrote the cure for the "law of sin" in Rom 8:2, proving again that it was from his preconversion experience.
Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

It can make you free of it too.

Was Paul saved or unsaved in Romans 7:14-25?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Paul's narrative about his preconversion life trying, unsuccessfully, to fulfil the Law.
And ?

Pre-conversion his name was Saul.
And you obviously do not know anything about Saul , a "Hebrew of the Hebrews" with regard to his professed confidence in his righteousness in fulfilment of the law.
Read up some more!

Phl 3:4-6
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


Saul is not a man that ever lost a wink of sleep over the law Junior .

 

[Consecrated Life]

You are misquoting me.
Romans 7 should make it clear that he was aware of, and troubled by, the sin he could not stop while under the Law.
His flesh over-ruled his mind, while he unsuccessfully tried to obey the Law

This is present tense:
Rom 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

If it were past tense, it would substitute these words to indicate past tense.

Rom 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelled (for dwelleth) no good thing: for to will was (for is) present with me; but how to perform that which is good I found (for find) not.

 

[Hopeful 2]

An English 101 course to help understand past , present, future tense would be money well spent for you.

What do you think his means..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." (Rom 7:5)
Some of Rom 7 is in the past narrative tense.
He is telling a story for the perspective of still being there.

This is present tense:
Rom 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

It is present tense...from in his narrative of the past.
We know it is because in Rom 8:2, Paul gives us the cure for Rom 7:23's problem.

If it were past tense as your limited English skills & woeful Spiritual discernment finds you claiming it was, it would substitute these words to indicate past tense.

It is in the past narrative tense.

Rom 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelled (for dwelleth) no good thing: for to will was (for is) present with me; but how to perform that which is good I found (for find) not.

That would be the flesh he is no longer in, according to Rom 7:5.

Words mean things Junior , write that down.

Please be civil.

You do realize that all your interpretations accommodate more sin...right ?

 

[Grailhunter]

Post 35 was right on the mark, until you misinterpreted 1 John 1:8, and 10.

Pretty straightforward verses. Not much to interpret.

 

[Iconoclast]

My Strong's Concordance has the same definitions, but it also has this one for the word "perfect".
"PERFECT".
Does it bother you at all that the interpretation you chose accommodates sin in the supposed believer ?

We are meant to rightly divide the word of truth. You are missing the meaning 90% of the time. You look but cannot see.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Pretty straightforward verses. Not much to interpret.

Not so for those with a habit of "spiritualize" everything to suit their doctrines.

 

[Grailhunter]

Not so for those with a habit of "spiritualize" everything to suit their doctrines.

No, if you can read you can understand these scriptures.

I am going to assume you have some kondike belief of sinlessness and these scriptures simply and clearly proves that belief in error. So you really do not have a good response.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No, if you can read you can understand these scriptures.

I am going to assume you have some kondike belief of sinlessness and these scriptures simply and clearly proves that belief in error. So you really do not have a good response.

Dude, we're on the same side, I'm not against you!

 

[Grailhunter]

Dude, we're on the same side, I'm not against you!

Sorry I thought I was responding to hopeful 2
Going to redirect.

 

[Grailhunter]

Hopeful 2
No, if you can read you can understand these scriptures.
I am going to assume you have some kondike belief of sinlessness and these scriptures simply and clearly proves that belief in error. So you really do not have a good response.

 

[electedbyHim]

Hopeful 2

No, I wouldn't.
Some of Rom 7 is a narrative of Paul's past.

Verses 14-24 are part of Paul's narrative of his past.

Yes, he did concur with the Law of God in his inner man, even though he couldn't manifest it because of the law of sin he felt was in his members.
I am glad Paul wrote the cure for the "law of sin" in Rom 8:2, proving again that it was from his preconversion experience.
Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

It can make you free of it too.

Was Paul saved or unsaved in Romans 7:14-25?

 

[Consecrated Life]

What do you think his means..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." (Rom 7:5)
Some of Rom 7 is in the past narrative tense.
He is telling a story for the perspective of still being there.

It is present tense...from in his narrative of the past.
We know it is because in Rom 8:2, Paul gives us the cure for Rom 7:23's problem.

It is in the past narrative tense.

That would be the flesh he is no longer in, according to Rom 7:5.

Please be civil.

You do realize that all your interpretations accommodate more sin...right ?

You can't name a single Christian minister, pastor, church, denomination, congregation on earth who believes your:

"Look God at what a good little boy I can claim to be exclusively on the internet where no one has ever known or met me theology"

I divide my attendance between a Conservative branch of the Lutheran Church and a Baptist Church.
What church do you attend ?
Or are you to afraid to say ?

 

[electedbyHim]

You can't name a single Christian minister, pastor, church, denomination, congregation on earth who believes your:

"Look God at what a good little boy I can claim to be exclusively on the internet where no one has ever known or met me theology"

I divide my attendance between a Conservative branch of the Lutheran Church and a Baptist Church.
What church do you attend ?
Or are you to afraid to say ?

You have a valid point.

No one knows this person outside this forum to my knowledge.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[JLB]

If a man commits a sin, and all have, he is to confess it and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)
He can then start walking in the light-God.
Sinners walk in darkness-sin.

We as born again baptized Christians have no need of getting baptized every time we sin.


As we all can plainly see, John never mentions getting baptized by simply confessing our sins.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10


We, us, ourselves, our and us refers to John and the Christians he is writing to.


Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins…

• he is the propitiation for our sins:

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2



JLB

 

[Consecrated Life]

You have a valid point.

No one knows this person outside this forum to my knowledge.

Grace and peace to you.

Yes,
I am 99 % sure he'll say he attends no church, and if by small chance he says he does it will be some sort of one off church with no affiliates, minus any posted, verifiable church statement of Belief.

 

[Free]

But, according to your understandings, "trying" does no good.

Then you have completely misunderstood everything I have said.

What is the use of going from an 85% sinner to a 25% sinner ?
Why not go from a 99% sinner to a 0% sinner ?

We'll be perfect once we are in heaven with Christ; it is nowhere stated that we can achieve that beforehand.

Thank God for allowing it !
Repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and rebirth from God's seed facilitates it.

That's what occurs when one is justified, yes, but afterward we still need to confess those sins we commit daily.

If men are still walking in the flesh, they will be sent to the lake of fire.

Of course. I have never said otherwise.

Sinners are delivered from nothing.
Only the truly repentant will be delivered.

I have no idea what you are saying here.

The "flesh" you cite as the reason for sinning, can be destroyed at its "immersion" into Christ and His death and burial. (Rom 6:6)
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Are you just ignoring that ?
Or don't you believe it ?

Context, context, context.

Believers are not in the flesh, that is, we don't "live according to the flesh" and "set [our] minds on the things of the flesh" (Rom 8:5). Again, like John, Paul is referring to those who lives are characterized by living in the flesh. Paul then says that believers are "not in the flesh but in the Spirit" (v. 9). However, Paul clearly talks about his own struggles, and hence all believers' struggles, against the flesh in Rom. 7. Notice the culmination of his struggles:

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. (ESV)

So, he's clearly serving both God and sin. Becoming justified gives us power of sin through the Holy Spirit, but it never once is said to mean that we are now sinless and never sin. John is clear that only unbelievers claim to be sinless.

1Co 3:1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
1Co 3:3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? (ESV)

Notice that Paul is speaking to believers--"brothers" and "infants in Christ"--who are behaving as people of the flesh, "behaving in only a human way." They are sinning through "jealousy and strife." That is the choice that believers, and only believers, have--to sin or not sin.

We can, but we won't ?
What a waste of the suffering and death of the Savior .
What a waste of the power of the Holy Spirit.

Your question and statements here suggest that you're not even trying to understand what I'm saying. We are essentially no different than the Israelites. They saw the miraculous power of God, leading them by a pillars of cloud and fire, providing food and water in the desert, and doing all sorts of things to their enemies, etc. Yet, the very moment the going got tough, they grumbled and turned to other gods.

And, so, believers likewise grumble and worry when we feel God is absent. We lie to each other, even if we justify it by saying it's only a "little white lie." We gossip, calling it being concerned or saying it's just so someone else knows what to pray for. We do all those things Paul lists in his letter to Colossae and elsewhere. But a true believer will feel conviction and turn to God and confess their sins, seeking God's forgiveness.

So, yes, we can choose to not sin but we often don't, because we all still struggle with temptation and with the flesh. How can that be "a waste of the suffering and death of the Savior"? Believers are first justified and made alive in Christ through his suffering and death. He then dwells in us through the Holy Spirit, who gives us the power to overcome temptation and the ability to choose not to sin. When we do sin and confess, Jesus is our advocate before the Father and his blood "cleanses us from all sin . . . from all unrighteousness."

He will, in the end, present us holy and blameless before the Father, which could never be done without his suffering and death and the power of the Holy Spirit.

If you think that Jesus's suffering and death and the power of the Spirit only mean something if we are perfectly sinless now, then you've missed most of what the NT says.

Has your post increased or decreased the ungodliness of 2 Tim 2:16 ?

It should decrease it for those who understand.

I find it revealing that those who choose to legitimize sin never quote 1 John 2:3-6..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Why is it revealing? What do you think it says that is relevant to this discussion?

I wish my brother would repent of sin and get baptized for their remission so he could walk in the light, and Spirit.

So, now you're acknowledging that believers can sin? Which is it, can believers still sin are they sinless? Or, do you think that one is a "brother" if they have yet not initially repented and been baptized, if they are not walking in the light and Spirit? That, too, is an idea found nowhere in the Bible. Either one is justified and walking in the Spirit, and so is a brother or sister, or they are not.

Does seeing a "STOP" sign mean you must drive through it without stopping ?
Why do admonissions against sin make you think you must commit sin ?

Again, you seem to not be trying to understand what I'm saying. I have never said that one "must commit sin."

 

[Free]

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)

Again, context. Notice what Paul has already just stated:

Col 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
Col 1:10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
...
Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
...
Col 1:28 Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. (ESV)

Notice the progression of this introduction. First, Paul and Timothy pray that the believers at Colossae "may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding." Why? So that they "walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him." This likely hints at the reason, or one of the reasons, for his letter.

Second, if they "continue in the faith," they will be able to be presented "holy and blameless and above reproach before him." So, there clearly is something they have to continue to do in order to be presented "holy and blameless." Third, why should Paul and Timothy be warning believers? What are they to be warning believers of? Does one warn others of good things, such as already being perfectly sinless? That would make no sense. One warns of danger, such as not living the faith as believers should be living, which would be committing sin.

Fourth, the same Greek word can be translated as "perfect," "mature," or "complete." Given the above context, it is could easily be translated as "mature" or "complete" as that fits with what Paul writes in verse 9. It we take it as "perfect," it would be in reference to when they stand before Christ. But notice that Paul doesn't say they are perfect now, it is clearly implied that it is something yet to be accomplished.

So, what is the issue? Look at chapter 2:

Col 2:6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,
Col 2:7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
...
Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
Col 2:20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations—
Col 2:21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”
Col 2:22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings?
Col 2:23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh. (ESV)

First, why the need to remind these believers to walk in Christ, if they are already perfect and walking in the light, as you keep saying? Second, we see that the reason for writing appears to be that there were teachings in the Colossae church that were based on "philosophy and empty deceit," "human tradition," and "elemental spirits of the world," which clearly were "not according to Christ." This is supported by verse 20, where Paul goes further and states that these believers were actually submitting "to regulations," as though they "were still alive in the world" despite having "died to the elemental spirits of the world."

Third, more than that, these "human precepts and teachings" that they were submitting to, have "no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh." Why would Paul mention that these human teachings have "no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh"? We see that in the next chapter:

Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
Col 3:7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
Col 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. (ESV)

Verses 3 and 4 make it clear that he is addressing believers. So, why in verse 3 is Paul telling these believers to "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you," if, as you claim, that has already been done completely and all believers are perfectly sinless? Notice the list of things that these believers were doing: "sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry."

More than just those, see what else Paul tells these believers to put away: "anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth." He then tells them "Do not lie to one another." Why? Because they "have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self." Clearly, all of that shows that Paul was addressing believers, and that these believers were not perfectly sinless. How could that be, if, as you claim, all believers are perfectly sinless?

The answer is in verse 10--"the new self" of each believer "is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator," which is what I have been saying. That is the process of sanctification and growing in holiness. And, how is that done? The answer was given in verses 1 and 2:

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. (ESV)

There is more that could be said just on this letter, but that suffices to show your position simply cannot account for much of what the NT states. Context is king and context makes shows that sinless perfection is not only never taught, but it is clearly taught that believers still struggle with sin while we are being renewed and growing in holiness.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Pretty straightforward verses. Not much to interpret.

It was hard for me to reckon, until the Lord showed me that only some of the verses applied to those who walk in the light, (5,7,9),and only some of the verses applied to those who walk in the dark. (6,8,10)
Sinners, those walking in darkness, cannot honestly say they have no sin.
But if all our sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ, (7), how can we NOT say "we have no sin" ?
(Just as only some of the verses of Rom 8 apply to those who walk in the Spirit, and only some of the verses apply to those who walk in the "flesh".)