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Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Imagican
  • Start date Start date
Catholic Crusader said:
I'll offer this in closing. There will come a time upon judgement that MANY will come to Christ and offer these words: "Look at all the wonderous THINGS that we have done in YOUR name". And Christ's answer to THESE: 'Go away from me for I know NOT who thou are'.....

Hmmm. Odd. When you read the Bible, it is those who FAIL to do good works that are damned:

[quote:0e496]Matt 25 41-46: "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
[/quote:0e496]

Firstly,

These were NOT my words offered by Christ.

Secondly,

It's NOT a matter of BEING ABLE to DO that which is HOLY. It's a matter of being LED into what is Holy.

YOU are the ONE that is stating that BAPTIZING is ABLE to DO 'anything'.

That is EXACTLY where the argument LIES at this moment.

And I see ONCE again, you UTTERLY refuse to answer the questions that I pose to YOU. So, CC, I'm going to ASSUME that you are simply offering argument for the SAKE of argument. For IF you MEANT to offer discussion, then YOU would answer questions posed to YOU as others answer those that YOU ask.

But you can 'rest assured' that I am WELL aware of the REASON for you evasion. And if I were offering YOUR argument, I WOULDN'T want to or even HAVE an answer to the questions that I have asked.

Blessings,

MEC
 
Catholic Crusader said:
MarkT said:
The question to the CC is, do they do it because they are led by the Spirit or because it is a sacrament of the church. I think the traditionalists do it because it is a sacrament and they love tradition. Nevertheless it is the will of God, and his will is done. Eventually his people do read the book, and they do gain a living understanding.

Well, we shall assume that we are speaking of people moved by grace. If God gives someone the grace, and they fail to do good, that is what I'm talking about. God will reward those who do good with his promise of eternal life

I'm guessing you're saying God's will is done; that God, by grace, by his good will, accomplishes what we can not do. I think that's true. I need only examine my own life to see that I did not choose the church, I did not choose to be baptized, I did not choose to go to confession, I did not choose to confess my sins, I did not choose to read the book; I was drawn to it. I'm stunned by the power of God. I really am. God knows how to save us and keep us. Looking back is like watching a movie in reverse. I experienced it but it wasn't my doing.

Upon first reading John 3:3, water baptism (John's baptism) never entered my mind. This is because Jesus said, 'That which is born of the Spirit is spirit' and 'my words are spirit and life'. His words gave us life and hope and peace and security - when we heard the words of eternal life, we believed. Peter said, 'You have the words of eternal life' John 6:68 And 'the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word' Acts 10:44 It's fitting that the word of God came from the Word of God by whom God made all things that all things would be made anew by his word, for the Proverb says, 'The LORD by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens; by his knowledge the deeps broke forth, and the clouds drop down the dew.' Pr. 3:19

Still the apostles did baptize with 'water'. This element at first seems unnecessary - until we look at our own life. Then, indeed, strange as it might sound - we were baptized. So this 'element' was fulfilled in infancy. And then 'confession' followed years later. But of course we know that a thousand years is as a day to God so it's not as if it followed on the next day. So that 'element' was fulfilled. It's like the CC giving us the Bible. That 'element' was fulfilled. So the church serves God's purpose. Whether they are always aware of it or not in many ways, I can't say.
 
Vic c wrote
Not to pick a fight, but what were the ages of those in the families you mentioned?


It doesnt say. And thats my point: You cannot conclusively say from the Bible ALONE whether infants should or should not be baptised.

Fortunately, I don't go by the Bible Alone. :) :)
 
Imagican said:
YOU are the ONE that is stating that BAPTIZING is ABLE to DO 'anything'.


Now MEC, you know I did not say that. I said:

Baptism is what it is, no more, and no less. For us, baptism is the washing away of sin, the means by which one is “born againâ€Â, and the entrance into the covenant family of God. It does NOT cover sins committed afterwards, and therefore does not guarantee your salvation. It also does not guarantee that you will always be a good Christian, just as your formula of asking Jesus to be your “personal Lord and Savoir†does not guarantee that a person who does so will always be a good Christian either.

Where we disagree is that Baptism is merely symbolic. Baptism is a sacrament: It might help to understand the sacramental principle in general.
 
Baptism doesn't cover ANY sin. A person who enters into the waters of baptism has already had their sins removed by the BLOOD of Jesus Christ...for it is a BELIEVER'S baptism only.
 
Alabaster said:
Baptism doesn't cover ANY sin. A person who enters into the waters of baptism has already had their sins removed by the BLOOD of Jesus Christ...for it is a BELIEVER'S baptism only.

Incorrect. Few truths are so clearly taught in the New Testament as the doctrine that in baptism God gives us grace. Again and again the sacred writers tell us that it is in baptism that we are saved, buried with Christ, incorporated into his body, washed of our sins, regenerated, cleansed, and so on (see Acts 2:38, 22:16; Rom. 6:1–4; 1 Cor. 6:11, 12:13; Gal. 3:26–27; Eph. 5:25-27; Col. 2:11–12; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:18–22). They are unanimous in speaking of baptism in invariably efficient terms, as really bringing about a spiritual effect.

Despite this wealth of evidence, Fundamentalists are almost equally unanimous in rejecting this truth. In general they regard baptism as something like an ordinance: an observance that does not itself bring about any spiritual effect but merely represents that effect. Its observance may be required by obedience, but it is not necessary in any further senseâ€â€certainly not for salvation.

This view requires Fundies to explain away all the New Testament passages on the nature of baptism as figurative language. It is not baptism itself, they assert, but what baptism represents, that really saves us. Yet the language of the New Testament on this point is so uniform that they cannot even dredge up a couple of "proof-texts" on baptism to support this view or their figurative reading of all the other passages.

There is one text that they occasionally mention. In 1 Corinthians 1:14–17 Paul wrote that he was glad that he himself had baptized so few of the Corinthians, since they could not say that they were baptized in his name; and he went on to say, "For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel. . . ."

Needless to say, this passage doesn’t say anything about baptism only representing spiritual realities, or not really saving. It doesn’t say anything about how those who accepted Paul’s preaching of the gospel were then saved. Paul didn’t write, "For I was not sent to baptize but to pray with people to accept Jesus as their personal Savior" (or even "to lead people to faith"). Paul didn’t pit faith against baptism.

Nor did he pit preaching against baptism. He would hardly have contradicted the great commission in Matthew 28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Paul’s point was not that God didn’t want him to baptize, only that preaching was the driving force of his evangelistic ministry.

In short, Paul’s remark doesn’t remotely support Fundamentalists minority view of baptism, or justify a figurative interpretation of all the other passages. Yet this is the closest thing to a Protestant proof-text!

The early Fathers were equally unanimous in affirming baptism as a means of grace. They all recognized the Bible’s teaching that "[In the ark] a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21, emphasis added).

Even Protestant early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes, "From the beginning baptism was the universally accepted rite of admission to the Church. . . . As regards its significance, it was always held to convey the remission of sins . . . we descend into the water ‘dead’ and come out again ‘alive’; we receive a white robe which symbolizes the Spirit . . .the Spirit is God himself dwelling in the believer, and the resulting life is a re-creation. Prior to baptism . . . our heart was the abode of demons . . . [but] baptism supplies us with the weapons for our spiritual warfare" (Early Christian Doctrines, 193–4).
 
The Word of God is clear. Baptism is an act a CHRISTIAN commits as a response to the command to be baptized.

It is as we have all heard, an outward expression of an inner commitment.
 
Alabaster said:
The Word of God is clear. Baptism is an act a CHRISTIAN commits as a response to the command to be baptized.

It is as we have all heard, an outward expression of an inner commitment.

Who is "we all"? Between the Catholics, the Orthodox, the Traditional Anglicans and a few others, almost 80% of Christianity says you are wrong. "WE ALL" have NOT heard this new doctrine of men which originated in the 16th century. Yours is a doctrine of men which nullifies the word of God. Ours is the ancient ways of the first Christians

Christians always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12), and they have always interpreted that as WATER BAPTISM. Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."
 
The Word is correct. I believe it when it calls only believers to be baptized. Sinners are not required, thanks.
 
Alabaster said:
The Word is correct. I believe it when it calls only believers to be baptized. Sinners are not required, thanks.
The word IS correct. It is your interpretation of it that is wrong. Thanks.
 
CC, I can give you the Baptism Paper I wrote that I also gave to Devekut, but I believe that though one can become saved at the moment of physical baptism, that it is rather the Baptism of the Spirit which is effectual. Cornelius and the Gentiles first received the Spirit, and once Peter saw it and could not deny it (to his initial increduility/amazement) he then said he could not refuse them baptism, he had no grounds in which to refuse them after seeing such an evidence of salvation. It is also true for the (notably special/unique) case of the theif on the cross. Anyway, that's all I wanted to say. If you would like to read the paper I wrote on Baptism please PM me your e-mail address and I will gladly send it to you. :)

God Bless,

~Josh
 
There is a question that still lingers... and never is given real consideration by the Catholics, the Orthodox, the Traditional Anglicans and a few others, as CC pointed out. That question is: what about all those who for whatever reason, could not or cannot be baptized?

And I see ONCE again, you UTTERLY refuse to answer the questions that I pose to YOU. So, CC, I'm going to ASSUME that you are simply offering argument for the SAKE of argument. For IF you MEANT to offer discussion, then YOU would answer questions posed to YOU as others answer those that YOU ask.
Mec, I haven't gotten any answers to the questions I've asked in this thread either. :smt102
 
Catholic Crusader said:
Alabaster said:
The Word is correct. I believe it when it calls only believers to be baptized. Sinners are not required, thanks.
The word IS correct. It is your interpretation of it that is wrong. Thanks.

I am absolutely not wrong. Baptism is not even offered to the unsaved. No unsaved person ever was baptized at any time in scripture (including babies and small children, btw). It is only taught and performed by Christians for Christians.

Read the Bible. Ask the Holy Spirit for elucidation. He will give it.
 
GarfieldCoffeeCupSlippers.jpg

I feel your pain Vic :smt021

vic C. said:
There is a question that still lingers... and never is given real consideration by the Catholics, the Orthodox, the Traditional Anglicans and a few others, as CC pointed out. That question is: what about all those who for whatever reason, could not or cannot be baptized?

And I see ONCE again, you UTTERLY refuse to answer the questions that I pose to YOU. So, CC, I'm going to ASSUME that you are simply offering argument for the SAKE of argument. For IF you MEANT to offer discussion, then YOU would answer questions posed to YOU as others answer those that YOU ask.
Mec, I haven't gotten any answers to the questions I've asked in this thread either. :smt102
 
Alabaster said:
Read the Bible. Ask the Holy Spirit for elucidation. He will give it.[/b]

Scriptures clearly says that not all have the gift of prophesy. (interpretation of Scriptures)

For in the manner that we have many members in one body, nevertheless all the members do not have the same operation; likewise many of us are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. So that having different gifts according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, according to the measure of faith; Romans 12:4-6

Don't presume that the Spirit will grant elucidation of Scriptures beyond one's natural ability. Peter writes about Paul's writings and warns us them to beware of unguided reading. The Scriptures are to be read "according to the measure of the faith", in other words, according to how the Apostles taught the Church. Baptism was unanimously seen by the Church as the means of entering the Kingdom. Only later innovators and unguided persons who have not been given the gift of grace to prophecy fail to see this.

Regards
 
There is a question that still lingers... and never is given real consideration by the Catholics, the Orthodox, the Traditional Anglicans and a few others, as CC pointed out. That question is: what about all those who for whatever reason, could not or cannot be baptized?

Why are you so concerned with the world Vic? There will be a thousand year reign. During that reign, most of the population of the world will be dead. There won't be a religion of Christianity. Christ will be on earth. We won't be discussing baptism then. For today, though, the Bible is for us. We are the sons of God. What the book says, it says to us. It doesn't say anything to the world; the world can not hear or see. The world has its religions and even those in the church can not see. It's that bad. Our way was prepared for us through baptism. Get it? Our way was prepared for us. The rest of the world is resurrected after the thousand year reign.
 
duh.jpg

Well I have to hand it to you that's an excellent end run but answering a question
with a question, can't you just answer the mans question or is that out of the
question? :smt018

MarkT said:
There is a question that still lingers... and never is given real consideration by the Catholics, the Orthodox, the Traditional Anglicans and a few others, as CC pointed out. That question is: what about all those who for whatever reason, could not or cannot be baptized?

Why are you so concerned with the world Vic? There will be a thousand year reign. During that reign, most of the population of the world will be dead. There won't be a religion of Christianity. Christ will be on earth. We won't be discussing baptism then. For today, though, the Bible is for us. We are the sons of God. What the book says, it says to us. It doesn't say anything to the world; the world can not hear or see. The world has its religions and even those in the church can not see. It's that bad. Our way was prepared for us through baptism. Get it? Our way was prepared for us. The rest of the world is resurrected after the thousand year reign.
 
francisdesales said:
Alabaster said:
Read the Bible. Ask the Holy Spirit for elucidation. He will give it.[/b]

Scriptures clearly says that not all have the gift of prophesy. (interpretation of Scriptures)

For in the manner that we have many members in one body, nevertheless all the members do not have the same operation; likewise many of us are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. So that having different gifts according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, according to the measure of faith; Romans 12:4-6

Don't presume that the Spirit will grant elucidation of Scriptures beyond one's natural ability. Peter writes about Paul's writings and warns us them to beware of unguided reading. The Scriptures are to be read "according to the measure of the faith", in other words, according to how the Apostles taught the Church. Baptism was unanimously seen by the Church as the means of entering the Kingdom. Only later innovators and unguided persons who have not been given the gift of grace to prophecy fail to see this.

Regards

The Holy Spirit does give us the ability to know many things beyond one's natural ability! He gives us supernatural power! It is His pleasure to do so and also His promise!

God will never stay in your gilded box!

Unguided reading? LOL! Non one who is a born again believer has to worry about that! We have the indwelling Holy Spirit, who's job it is is to teachj us all things!

Once again, I emphatically say---if you are a born again believer, read the Bible and gain understanding from it by God Himself! That is His promise!=--freedom from religion and freedom to live for Jesus Christ---supernaturally! There's a prophecy for you.
 
vic C. said:
There is a question that still lingers... and never is given real consideration by the Catholics, the Orthodox, the Traditional Anglicans and a few others, as CC pointed out. That question is: what about all those who for whatever reason, could not or cannot be baptized?
CCC #1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized.
Mec, I haven't gotten any answers to the questions I've asked in this thread either. :smt102
I'd be happy to help... ask away.
 
Alabaster said:
The Holy Spirit does give us the ability to know many things beyond one's natural ability! He gives us supernatural power! It is His pleasure to do so and also His promise!

Yes, but not all the gifts. Romans and 1 Corinthians clearly show that God gives the CHURCH assundry gifts. We as individuals do not receive all the gifts. We as a CHURCH do!

Is everyone an eye? Are we all ears???

Do all intepret Scriptures? Do all speak in tongues? Do all shepherd the flock???

The Church is a corporate Body and God gives gifts to this Body, but not every gift to every person. I don't have every gift, nor do you.

Alabaster said:
God will never stay in your gilded box!

My gilded box? Cut the drama.

Alabaster said:
Unguided reading? LOL! Non one who is a born again believer has to worry about that! We have the indwelling Holy Spirit, who's job it is is to teachj us all things!

Delusions of self-grandeur again. The Spirit is promised to the Church corporate, not the individual at the individual's whim. The Spirit blows where HE wills, not where Alabaster wills.

Common sense AND SCRIPTURE dictates that we realize that the Spirit is not given to all for the sake of interpretation of Sacred Writ! You say "x" and someone else says "y", both CLAIMING to be "filled" with some sort of spirit... False claims and nothing more. God doesn't give all the gift of prophesy, nor have YOU been promised to be taught all things.

That was said to the Apostles, who taught and tasked others to teach, whom the Scriptures call "overseers" or bishops. Try to read Scriptures in the context with which they were written. Nowhere does the Bible say that the Spirit comes to all individual Christians and teaches them Sacred Writ...!

ANOTHER of your man-made traditions...

Alabaster said:
Once again, I emphatically say---if you are a born again believer, read the Bible and gain understanding from it by God Himself! That is His promise!=--freedom from religion and freedom to live for Jesus Christ---supernaturally! There's a prophecy for you.[/b]

Once again, I emphatically say that even the most holy of persons is not infallible when gaining understanding of God. You are much too proud for your own good. You need to realize WHOM you are speaking of - GOD.

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Romans 11:33-34

This was written by St. Paul. I sincerely doubt YOU understand God better than he did. Such hubris is unbecoming of a true Christian. Nowhere does the Bible say that we can fully and infallibly understand God by reading the Scriptures. Nowhere does the Bible say that God HIMSELF will teach YOU PERSONALLY the Sacred Scriptures' intent.

Regards
 
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