Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?

[cyberjosh]

...I just hope you test the doctrines you are told before "finalizing" it in your mind...

What would I test them against? What I come up with in my own mind?

The Scripture, what else? Pray and fast of your own accord over something? Ever tried that?

On the few times that I have been asked to preach, I had such a fear of God of not wanting to mislead the people of God that I would fast and pray before each sermon, and what I felt God revealed to me I told, what he didn't I told the congregation up front I wasn't sure. The greatest parts though were when God laid on my heart some things I never outlined for the sermon while I was preaching. Honesty with yourself and God is the thing.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...I just hope you test the doctrines you are told before "finalizing" it in your mind...

What would I test them against? What I come up with in my own mind?

The Scripture, what else? Pray and fast of your own accord over something? Ever tried that?...

It would still just be a personal interpretation. Why can't I get anyone to see that? Am I to put Peter to the test? Would you if you ever met him?

The Bereans were WRONG to put Paul to the test. Thats the part everyone seems to miss when they quote those verses. Paul wrote half the NT for Pete's sake.

 

[cyberjosh]

Yes, read the Scriptures. But do so with the mind of the Church and the Doctrines given. Unfortunately, some prefer to serve themselves and their own "doctrines", "that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

That could bias me to presuppositions though that may not be correct. I don't think I should "read into" the Lord's Supper the doctrine of transubstantiation IMO. And I have been a Berean about that.

 

[Alabaster]

... When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths. But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others. For,

But we understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ.[/b]

I know I'm stepping in doo doo asking you this question, but who is to say who the spirit is speaking through? Isnt it presumptuous to say He is speaking through you, but not through those who can demonstrate their Bona Fides in having Christ-given authority? You speak of "human wisdom", but since you are a human, isnt it just as fair to say that YOUR beliefs are human wisdom? Or are you above the rest of us mere mortals?

God-given wisdom is what we ought to be exercising. It is liberally available to all of those who know Jesus Christ as personal Saviour and Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:20-22
So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe. It is foolish to the Jews, who ask for signs from heaven. And it is foolish to the Greeks, who seek human wisdom.


Pray for wisdom--for others and yourself! God desires to give it.


Ephesians 1:16-17
I have not stopped thanking God for you. I pray for you constantly, asking God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to give you spiritual wisdom and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God.

Colossians 1:9
So we have not stopped praying for you since we first heard about you. We ask God to give you complete knowledge of his will and to give you spiritual wisdom and understanding.


James 1:5
If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I knew I was barking up the wrong tree.

 

[cyberjosh]

What would I test them against? What I come up with in my own mind?

The Scripture, what else? Pray and fast of your own accord over something? Ever tried that?...

It would still just be a personal interpretation. Why can't I get anyone to see that? Am I to put Peter to the test? Would you if you ever met him?

You know as well as I that the RCC teaches extra-biblical doctrines not clearly specified in the Scriptures. I am not talking about doubting the Scriptures, if anything I will question and test the traditional interpretation of Scriptures (Church Father's, etc.).

Also as for fasting and praying, that is Biblical and certainly has effect, and some of David's Psalms came from an intense search of God like that. I don't believe that if you seek after God that like that that He will lead you into blatant error. And as you have said, many of our doctrines agree, but I have tested those for myself and God has affirmed them to me. Those that are still questionable I continue to seek to understand. The thing is that I never stop searching the Scriptures and praying. God in his due time will reveal things to you if you consistantly ask ('ask and you will recieve').

~Josh

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....I never stop searching the Scriptures and praying. God in his due time will reveal things to you if you consistantly ask ('ask and you will recieve').

I couldn't go through life like that. I guess it just comes down at some point to trust. I trust the pope, and I trust the Holy Spirit will not let the Church err. We all trust the Holy Spirit, I guess we just have different ideas on how He works.

 

[cyberjosh]

....I never stop searching the Scriptures and praying. God in his due time will reveal things to you if you consistantly ask ('ask and you will recieve').

I couldn't go through life like that. I guess it just comes down at some point to trust. I trust the pope, and I trust the Holy Spirit will not let the Church err. We all trust the Holy Spirit, I guess we just have different ideas on how He works.

I think that is so, primarily in that we believe God does administer true teaching in his Church through leaders, not just one leader (Pope). The Bible could permit several apostles, and even those who were not apostles to preach infallible truth (Timothy, Titus, Barnabas, Apollos, etc.). And when they had differences or questions they got together in a council, like in Acts 15. No apostle was above the other, and not just apostles but elders as well. Man wouldn't it be great to see the Pope submissive to such authority just once? And I don't mean that disrespectfully but in the spirit that Christ says that we all should be humble.

 

[cyberjosh]

I couldn't go through life like that.

Then what's the point of asking and receiving? We have to go through life like that because we are of limited understanding, but God says he will give to those who ask, and in that parable of Jesus he gave the picture of the persistent person knocking on the door till the neighbor got up and gave them what they wanted. We can't be slothful or unwilling to seek after the truth even if it hurts. Getting to the truth is not all rosy all the time, and Paul through his several struggles, and "weeping", and perseverance could tell you that as well.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....I never stop searching the Scriptures and praying. God in his due time will reveal things to you if you consistantly ask ('ask and you will recieve').

I couldn't go through life like that. I guess it just comes down at some point to trust. I trust the pope, and I trust the Holy Spirit will not let the Church err. We all trust the Holy Spirit, I guess we just have different ideas on how He works.

I think that is so, primarily in that we believe God does administer true teaching in his Church through leaders, not just one leader (Pope). The Bible could permit several apostles, and even those who were not apostles to preach infallible truth (Timothy, Titus, Barnabas, Apollos, etc.). And when they had differences or questions they got together in a council, like in Acts 15. No apostle was above the other, and not just apostles but elders as well. Man wouldn't it be great to see the Pope submissive to such authority just once? And I don't mean that disrespectfully but in the spirit that Christ says that we all should be humble.

Well, councils have the same authority as the pope. Just as Matt 16: 18 speaks of papal authority, so too Matt 18:18 speaks to the authority given to the apostles as a group.

And popes have been rebuked by simple nuns before. They are not gods - they put their pants on like you and me

 

[cyberjosh]

It's hard to say anything after a conversation like this.

But I would like to again drive home my sincerity in that sometimes it hurts to seek after God, because there is a process of self-denial and crucifying of the flesh in following Christ (Romans 8:13), and if it was easy everyone would do it (and Jeremiah the "weeping prophet" could tell you that). I, like Paul, have many times wept before God in my troubled times. Paul is pictured weeping a number of times in Scripture, bourne of his sincerity. But I have, as you said, learned to trust God in my troubled times. And I've found that in weeping and "casting my burdens upon the Lord" that he will keep his promises and give me the peace that transcends all understanding when I throw my frustrations, anxieties, and limitations on him. This can range from practical things like finances, to seeking direction in my life, to doctrinal matters like we have been discussing. But for me it is all the same, and if necessary I will seek after God in tears for the truth. Those not willing to seek at all costs for truth may not be worthy of Christ, so that is why I seek to pursue God with fear and trembling.

I don't know how else to say it, but I truly believe that praying and fasting can bring about a breakthrough of understanding and revelation in God's due time.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Okay.

Well, we'd better start talking about baptism. When Vic reads this thread he's gonna freak out.

 

[Alabaster]

I couldn't go through life like that.

Then what's the point of asking and receiving? We have to go through like that because we are of limited understanding, but God says he will give to those who ask, and in that parable of Jesus he gave the picture of the persistent person knocking on the door till the neighbor got up and gave them what they wanted. We can't be slothful or unwilling to seek after the truth even if it hurts. Getting to the truth is not all rosy all the time, and Paul through his several struggles, and "weeping", and perseverance could tell you that as well.

God Bless,

~Josh

Amen!

 

[Imagican]

It's hard to say anything after a conversation like this.

But I would like to again drive home my sincerity in that sometimes it hurts to seek after God, because there is a process of self-denial and crucifying of the flesh in following Christ (Romans 8:13), and if it was easy everyone would do it (and Jeremiah the "weeping prophet" could tell you that). I, like Paul, have many times wept before God in my troubled times. Paul is pictured weeping a number of times in Scripture, bourne of his sincerity. But I have, as you said, learned to trust God in my troubled times. And I've found that in weeping and "casting my burdens upon the Lord" that he will keep his promises and give me the peace that transcends all understanding when I throw my frustrations, anxieties, and limitations on him. This can range from practical things like finances, to seeking direction in my life, to doctrinal matter like we have been discussing. But for me it is all the same, and if necessary I will seek after God in tears for the truth. Those not willing to seek at all costs for truth may not be worthy of Christ, so that is why I seek to pursue God with fear and trembling.

I don't know how else to say it, but I truly believe that praying and fasting can bring about a breakthrough of understanding and revelation in God's due time.

God Bless,

~Josh

WOW!!!

Awsome testimony Cyber. Truly inspiring. I HOPE that it is ABLE to offer a secureness in knowledge to those IN NEED of such. I thank you for your words.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, read the Scriptures. But do so with the mind of the Church and the Doctrines given. Unfortunately, some prefer to serve themselves and their own "doctrines", "that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

That could bias me to presuppositions though that may not be correct. I don't think I should "read into" the Lord's Supper the doctrine of transubstantiation IMO. And I have been a Berean about that.

A Berean, I repeat, is someone who accepts the faith as preached, finding the pertinent Scriptures. The Thessalonians searched the SAME Scriptures and did not believe Paul's interpretation. The Bereans did believe. Not because they were smarter, had more Bible college graduates, had Thayer's Greek Lexicon, or maybe a the latest Strong's Concordance! God has not required that people be really smart to understand Scriptures. He has given apostles, evangelists, preachers, etc., for that purpose.

Acts doesn't hold Paul accountable to the Bereans. Nor is Scriptures holding Paul accountable to Scriptures. Have you read Galatians 1? Who is Paul accountable to? Certainly not the Galatians or THEIR interpretations of Scriptures...

We both know that the Scriptures themselves can be distorted to say pretty much what anyone wants to teach. Thus, we Catholics, knowing all about this rough-shod treatment of the Sacred Writ, rely on the Traditions to give us the proper interpretations. Transubstantiation is just a way of trying to use human language to come to grips with a mysterious article of our faith. Perhaps the future will see the Church think of a better term that defines our belief and makes it more applicable to people of the future. Doctrinal definitions serve that purpose - to make the faith understandable to the people of today, not 500 years ago.

If you are a Berean, you would accept the teachings given. It is pretty darn universal that the teachings given are that the bread and wine of the Eucharist become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. Thus, the "real" Berean accepts the teaching given by the successor of Paul and looks to Scriptures to verify and strengthen His belief....

See, look, fellow Bereans... "Paul" is right. Look at John 6. Eat my flesh... Hmm. Look what else we found... What were the words of our Savior? What was He giving to the Apostles to drink in the chalice? Did our GOD call it wine or blood? Hmm.

This is what the real Berean does. Not look to the Bible to find things in contradistinction to the teachings given.

NOT...

Well, I don't think "Paul" could be right... Hmm. Hey, look, fellow Bereans. We are not allowed to eat blood. See, "Paul" must be wrong... Hmm. We just KNOW that Jesus was speaking metaphorically in John 6. As a Berean, I must protest, "Paul"...

That makes it sound like you have decided to find things for the PURPOSE of remaining where you are. Like I said, anyone can find, if they look hard enough, for a verse that appears to nullify or verify their preconceived doctrines...

Being a Berean requires hearing the Gospel, not re-inventing it.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

Amen!

WOW!!!

Awsome testimony Cyber. Truly inspiring. I HOPE that it is ABLE to offer a secureness in knowledge to those IN NEED of such. I thank you for your words.

Blessings,

MEC

Thanks Alabaster and MEC. That's encouraging to me. And the funny thing is, just like pastors do often, they end up preaching to themselves sometimes - and so have I just done the same. I've set a very high standard for myself, and I hope to God that I can attain to it.

God Bless You,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Also I have to say MEC, although I have had some doctrinal differences with you in the past such as about the Trinity or whatever, I have seen in your posts over a long period of time an uncommon earnestness and attentiveness which is admirable. So to a fellow brother in Christ I salute you and urge you to always press toward the mark in all perseverance, and to count all things except Christ as rubbish.

May God Bless You,

~Josh

 

[Imagican]

Encouraging words indeed, my friend.

While we strive to 'seek out' that which is truth, oftentimes we forget that which matters MOST. It is ALWAYS refreshing and encouraging to encounter it in the LEAST expected places.

May we continue in the love that has been offered usward. Attending to that which IS most important. Offering our honor and love to our precious Savior, Our Heavenly Father, and each other. For 'what is a servant' that refuses to serve?

Blessings, my brother

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Folks,

It has come to my attention that my message may NOT be as clear as I would LIKE it to BE.

So, with this in mind let me offer a bit of clarity:

We HAVE been TOLD to BE Baptized. I BELIEVE in Baptism. I am NOT sure of ALL the EXACT implications of 'water Baptism', I do NOT believe that it is a 'thing' that is to BE ignored.

What I have TRIED to offer is that it could NOT BE a MANDATORY command in ALL instances. And it COULD well be abused in that it CAN be performed by or received by those that have NO TRUE BELIEF in Christ. While MANY would assume that NO ONE that waS NOT inspired to BE a follower of Christ WOULD have themselves Baptized, I can ASSURE you that there HAVE been and will BE those that have NO intentions of FOLLOWING Christ UPON being Baptized.

We EVEN have the words of the apostles that offer that there were FALSE prophets that had GONE OUT FROM THEM. understand these words 'gone out FROM among THEM'. This is a PRIME indication that for these words to BE USED, those in reference HAD BEEN Baptized but CHOSE to follow FALSE gods instead of the ONE True God. Thus PROVING that THEiR water Baptism was to NO avail except in it's ability to CONDEMN.

So, SHOULD we BE Baptized? YES!!! Does Baptism ALONE offer Salvation? NOT in MY understanding. CAN Baptism of water bring about Baptism of Spirit at the SAME INSTANT? Possibly. Won't argue for or against it other than OPINION. DOES Baptism 'cleanse one of their sins'? Perhaps. in ALL cases? My answer would be NO.

But that leads us BACK to the ORIGINAL question; IS 'water Baptism ENOUGH? Since the thread was started BY myself, I feel that it is my obligation to offer the EXTENT to which this question was offered: Is Water Baptism ENOUGH to SAVE an individual. PERHAPS, IF they were Baptized the MOMENT before their death, their HEART was right, MAYBE. But from what we have been offered in scriture and from my conviction through Spirit, NO, Baptism in water ALONE is NOT enough. For there is simply TOO much offered that would CONTRADICT this 'belief'.

We have a number of parables concerning the ISSUE. We have NUMEROUS scriture that SPEAK of MORE needed to BE 'saved'. We are NOT to be HEARERS only of the Word but DOERS. And IF one is Baptized with water and this is the ONLY thing that they have HEARD and FOLLOW, then OBVIOUSLY these would NOT be those considered DOERS other than in this ONE respect.

There ARE those that are Baptized in water that STILL are unable to come to the circumcision of their HEARTS needed in order to understand and OFFER Love. That is APPARENT in those that I'm sure we've ALL witnessed that DO NOT KNOW HOW to LOVE their neighbors. MY belief is that LOVE IS PARAMONT to a relationship with God through His Son. And without it, there IS NO GIFT OFFERED. For the Bible PLAINLY offers that those that HATE their neighbors have ONLY darkness in their hearts. And that these are NOT those that have been called or chosen.

So, I BELIEVE in Baptism. But ONLY so far as the UNDERSTANDING has been offered. NO MORE, NO LESS. But I do NOT believe that ALL that ARE saved MUST BE Baptized in WATER. For there WILL be many that are UNABLE to receive water Baptism LIKE everyone else. And for these God WILL NOT deny His love. Christ's sacrifice was NOT dependant upon 'water Baptism' The Bible STATES as much. For there are MANY times the statement made that 'those that BELIEVE' without the mention of Baptism. And water is MORE sybolic than PHYSICAL other than 'getting wet'.

With these words I HOPE that my stance on this issue is MORE clear.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation in John 3:5. How can that not be a command? Thats why the first Christians affirmed the necessity of baptism in the Nicene Creed in A.D. 381: "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."