Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?

[duval]

Francisdesales:
If you wish to say you did not challenge me, fine, no problem. If you wish to go to a "one on one" fine. As I am not adept to this process then I shall leave it to you to arrange it as you seem to have been there before.-----Thanks, Duval

 

[Pogo]

dadof10 posted...

This is what the Catholic Church teaches. The Orthodox and Armenians, (I think) as well. I don't know of any Protestant churches that teach water Baptism is necessary for salvation.

As far as I can tell, there are a least three denominations that teach immersion, which is what the Greek word 'baptize' means in English.

Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of Christ, and the Mormons.

If you count 'sprinkling', as the Catholics practice, then there are several more.

The Methodist's, Mennonite's, etc.

I question the validity of the Catholic's rites of infant sprinkling and later, conformation, as being scriptural.

Many Protestants, who I agree, have much baggage of their own to carry, that DO teach immersion (baptism) as essential for salvation, don't even recognize Catholic's as Christians since they have never been immersed in water.

But, y'all go on ahead...take you fingers and point away!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[turnorburn]

dadof10 posted...

This is what the Catholic Church teaches. The Orthodox and Armenians, (I think) as well. I don't know of any Protestant churches that teach water Baptism is necessary for salvation.

As far as I can tell, there are a least three denominations that teach immersion, which is what the Greek word 'baptize' means in English.

Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of Christ, and the Mormons.

If you count 'sprinkling', as the Catholics practice, then there are several more.

The Methodist's, Mennonite's, etc.

I question the validity of the Catholic's rites of infant sprinkling and later, conformation, as being scriptural.

Many Protestants, who I agree, have much baggage of their own to carry, that DO teach immersion (baptism) as essential for salvation, don't even recognize Catholic's as Christians since they have never been immersed in water.

But, y'all go on ahead...take you fingers and point away!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[dadof10]

As far as I can tell, there are a least three denominations that teach immersion, which is what the Greek word 'baptize' means in English.
Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of Christ, and the Mormons.
If you count 'sprinkling', as the Catholics practice, then there are several more.
The Methodist's, Mennonite's, etc.

JW's and Mormons are not Protestants. I said above "This is what the Catholic Church teaches. The Orthodox and Armenians, (I think) as well. I don't know of any Protestant churches that teach water Baptism is necessary for salvation."

Do any of the denominations above believe that water baptism is (highlighted in red again) NECESSARY for salvation?

If so, that's good, at least they got one doctrine right. My point to Duval, and everyone else, is that Scripture clearly states water baptism saves. This is Scriptural. Duval claimed the Catholic Church teaches things that are not. He is provably wrong, at least on the OP, and so are you if you think water baptism does not effect salvation.

It is the Protestant churches that claim water baptism does NOT save, and is merely symbolic, who are in error.

I question the validity of the Catholic's rites of infant sprinkling and later, conformation, as being scriptural.

Do you think that water baptism by IMMERSION is necessary for salvation?

But, y'all go on ahead...take you fingers and point away!

If I disagree with you I'm pointing fingers? What is that supposed to mean?

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales:
If you wish to say you did not challenge me, fine, no problem. If you wish to go to a "one on one" fine. As I am not adept to this process then I shall leave it to you to arrange it as you seem to have been there before.-----Thanks, Duval

I come here to defend my faith against false accusations. I have learned that many Protestants don't even know what they are "protesting" against. Sadly, they have learned a strawman of the Catholic faith. I try to correct these misperceptions. If they continue to reject the Church, that is their decision. Initially, it appeared that you had set yourself up as the judge of what is correct Scriptural teachings, including the judging of the Catholic Catechism for its "correctness". If you feel inclined to defend that authority you have given yourself, which was our initial disagreement, then let's talk about your authority vs the Church's authority. If not, I'll presume you are recanting or having second thoughts.

The "process" is easy. You just start a new thread and invite the other to participate. The debate thread is different in that only two people can post to the thread. But in the Apologetic thread, anyone can post. Go to the bottom of the page, either "Apologetic and Theology" or "Debates", and click on "New Topic" button, and fill out a topic and your comment. This is the process for starting any new thread, by the way.

If you are interested in learning about what the Catholic Church REALLY teaches, I can educate you and leave it in God's hands and yours. If you are here to argue, I will eventually become bored and stop.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

As far as I can tell, there are a least three denominations that teach immersion, which is what the Greek word 'baptize' means in English.

Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of Christ, and the Mormons..

Two of those three are not valid Christian baptisms, and I am not sure about the "Church of Christ". Catholics also teach immersion, although "sprinkling" is allowed.

I know because I watch it done every Easter Vigil at my Church when the RCIA catechumens are immersed.

Regards

 

[duval]

All Baptist churches immerse and one small group in California does so for remission of sins.
Have a good day---Duval

 

[Pogo]

dadof10 posted...

Do you think that water baptism by IMMERSION is necessary for salvation?

Yes! I have come to understand that water baptism, immersion, is essential to one's salvation.

If I disagree with you I'm pointing fingers? What is that supposed to mean?

It means that while you are saying that baptism by water is necessary, in red text? no less, for salvation, you are not practicing the rite correctly yourselves!


duval posted...

All Baptist churches immerse and one small group in California does so for remission of sins.

Around here, as far as I can tell, the Baptist's teach that water baptism is not essential to one's salvation.

But, when they do baptize, they DO baptize by immersion!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[duval]

I did not know of the small group in California baptizing for the remission of silns either until about 5 ydrs. ago I was shown there manual of faith. In addition the Diciples of Chrilst (Christian Church) also as a rule immerse. However some yeara ago I read of one of them practising what they called a "Rose Baptism" by sprinkling water from a rose. Perhaps the SDA church immerses. However, in my understanding of scripture not only is baptism by water, and that by immersion necessary but it also must be immersion for the right reason. God bless, Duval

 

[dadof10]

dadod10 posted...

Do you think that water baptism by IMMERSION is necessary for salvation?

Yes! I have come to understand that water baptism, immersion, is essential to one's salvation.

That's great to hear. Do you attend a church that teaches this, or did you come to this conclusion through your own study?

It means that while you are saying that baptism water by water is necessary, in red text?, for salvation, you are not practicing the rite correctly yourselves!

I assume by "correctly" you mean Biblically. The Greek word baptizo means immersion, but also washing. It does not refer ONLY to immersion. As Francis says above, the Catholic Church considers both forms valid.

From Thayers:

1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)

2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe

3) to overwhelm

 

[Pogo]

dadof10 posted...

That's great to hear. Do you attend a church that teaches this, or did you come to this conclusion through your own study?

I attended several different churches, some did, some didn't, over the years as an agnostic.

I finally became a Christian - I heard that Jesus was the Son of God, believed what I'd heard, publicly confessed what I believed, repented of all my sins, and was immersed in water - in a small indepentent Christian church, First Christian.

As my knowledge of the Word continued to grow, I later left that church, and since have left others, mostly due to disputes regarding 1 Corinthians 11.

Women today refuse to wear a covering during prayer, and no church seems to practice the rite of communion properly. Not to mention, baptism!

I currently worship in a home church with from five to ten others.

No mainstream church in America is practicing the truth in all of it's glory!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[duval]

Pogo
It seems you and I are near together is some ways. My wife wears a head covering as per 1 Cor.11. I also am vitally interested in observing the Lord's supper each Lord's day.
God's speed, Duval

 

[Pogo]

duval -

Praise the Lord!

I fully agree on each point that you have made.

It really is wonderful to connect with others that are in harmony with one's interpretations!!!

Hopefully, you are among a strong, vibrant, congregation, that is growing.

My issues with the practice of the communion rite aren't just limited to how often it is taken, it is also about the 'manner' in which it is taken.

In other threads, I have went into some detail regarding, in my view, the flaws being practiced at the Lord's Table.

We probably don't agree on a lot of these issues, and many others as well, but it is wonderful that we do agree on those that we do!

May God bless us all,

Pogo

 

[dadof10]

No mainstream church in America is practicing the truth in all of it's glory!

You mean no mainstream church agrees fully with your infallible intrepretation of Scripture?

 

[duval]

I don't recall that pogo said he had infallible interpretion---Duval

 

[francisdesales]

I don't recall that pogo said he had infallible interpretion---Duval

So where is his and your authority to overrule another authority accepted for 2000 years? An authority backed by Scripture? I would like to see Scriptural evidence that gives anyone here the right to overrule the Church, as per Matthew 18:17. I notice that Christ doesn't make any further provisions to "go to" when the Church is "wrong"... Perhaps because it is the LAST authority that Christians are to go to - and those who refuse the Church are what again?

Well, I'm sure you can read it for yourself...

Regards

 

[dadof10]

I don't recall that pogo said he had infallible interpretion---Duval

What does "the truth in all it's glory" mean?

 

[Pogo]

AAhhh...dadof10 -

The REAL you has returned to the threads!

The one, who, as a good Catholic, has to believe that he isn't worthy to interpret the scriptures for his own self, but rather, must rely on men wearing head coverings during prayers, and dresses, to tell him what to believe!

The same one, who, for some inexplicable reason, also feels qualified to then interpret the scriptures for others!

You posted...

You mean no mainstream church agrees fully with your infallible intrepretation of Scripture?

Until you or another can show me that your positions on the scriptures prove mine to be in error, I'm perfectly comfortable allowing you to hold that view!

You also posted...

I assume by "correctly" you mean Biblically. The Greek word baptizo means immersion, but also washing. It does not refer ONLY to immersion. As Francis says above, the Catholic Church considers both forms valid.

From Thayers:

1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)

2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe

3) to overwhelm

I know that you don't have a choice, you have to believe this because a man wearing a dress told you that this is what it means.

But, you don't think that other adults will swallow this do you?

Thayers is exactly right! You've posted it! Read it!

Baptize truly DOES mean - to immerse, to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to overwhelm.

To wash with a sprinkle of water in no way comes close, and is no way simular to being overwhelmed by immersion or the washing by submerging!

I realize that you don't come to these threads to study the scriptures in an effort to learn the truth, you come to this forum with an agenda. You come to parrot dogma from outside the scriptures at every turn.

*edited by Staff*

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[duval]

Amen to Pogo, and I'm still waiting to hear from Francisdesales regarding his "one on one." In good faith, Duval

 

[francisdesales]

I realize that you don't come to these threads to study the scriptures in an effort to learn the truth, you come to this forum with an agenda. You come to parrot dogma from outside the scriptures at every turn.

*edited by Staff*

I haven't seen you prove any of those accusations yet.

And I find your attitude a bit disconcerting for someone who claims to be a Christian.

Perhaps you can locate me some Scriptures where we find a Christian wishing the "worst of luck" to another Christian...?

Regards