Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?

[dadof10]

In response to dadof10
Thank you for your kind advice about how this thing operates. I am computer dumb and not worth anything when it comes to typing either. I did try to follow your instructions and messed up. I will continue to try but may have to get someone to come and teach how to "cut & past" Till then I'll try this. Bear with me please!!

No problem. I can understand you fine, it just takes less of your time to click stuff.

But to your question. If the church interprets the inspired scriptures, then which church?

The Church that Christ founded, that is the one that He promised to guide to "all Truth". If you haven't already, look into the writings of the Early Church Fathers. These men were the leaders of the Church for the first three centuries, some being taught by the Apostles themselves. You will find they believed what the Catholic Church teaches today.

There are 300+. Most are radically different. So different they cannot assemble together for the Lord's Supper, baptize for one another, serve as ministers for each others churches, cannot fellowship together (except some in rare occasions). So different that this church has this discipline book to be goverened by, another has a "standard manuel" still another has their cate., another has this creed book etc.,etc. So radically different that their headquarters are in different places and on and on!!! ?

There was only one Church for over 15 centuries, the Catholic Church. Through disobedience, pride and arrogance men broke away from the true Church and founded their own using the Bible alone and interpreting it for themselves.

which church, again I ask shall interpret the Bible for us? The all important question is what does the Bible teach?

No, the all important questions are: Did Christ come primarily to write a book or found a Church, and is He capable of keeping His Church from teaching error? Is the Protestant model for recieving Truth (e.g. Sola Scriptura) contained in Scripture? That's why I asked the question above, Where does Scripture teach "Its not about what any "church" says, it about what the "Bible" says."?

God Bless, Mark

 

[duval]

dadof10:
Thanks for your post and patience. I agree as you said: "The church that Christ founded, that is the one He promised to guide to 'all truth'". I shall attempt to explain below. Which of the many churches? Not the Catholic Church ( Roman ) nor any of the Protestant churches. It is the church which is the "pillar and ground of the truth", the church supporting the truth. The apostasy of which you mentioned began long before the Roman Catholic Church began, in fact it was rearing its ugly head during Paul's lifetime, IITHESS.2:7. The Roman church teaches numerous things adverse to the scripture. So do ALL Protestant churches. Thats why ( as stated in my last post ) men have added "manuals", "articles of faith" etc to themselves in addition to what the scripture teaches. Such cannot and do not faithfully interpret scripture, nor fo they fully support it. Yes, I agree, Jesus said He would build His church, Mt.16:18 and He did, Acts 2 and He used men He caused to be inspired to do so, Jn.14:26, Jn.15:4,13 etc. Dodof10, its wonderful to be free of the yokes of men and have only the scripture to be measured by, after all, what Jesus said is that which will judge us in the last day, Jn.12:48-50 and not the writings of men. I want to be as narrow as the Bible is narrow and not one whit less, and I want to be as broad as the Bible is broad , and not one whit broader. Dadof10 its wonderful to be free of the yokes of all men and be measured only by the scripture. May God bless in body, soul and spirit --- Duval

 

[dadof10]

Dadof10 its wonderful to be free of the yokes of all men and be measured only by the scripture.

Who's interpretation of Scripture? If two "Holy Spirit" guided teachers disagree on a point of doctrine, which intrepretation is the Truth?

How are you "free of the yokes of all men", when some man (you) or group of men (a church) must interpret Scripture? It would be "wonderful" if it was self-interpreting, but it's not.

 

[duval]

The Bible is its own BEST commentary. Paul said in Eph.3:4: "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ" ---Paul said we could. He was inspired, I believe him.---In Christian love, Duval

 

[duval]

One thing I forgot. Do you recall an instance in scripture where two inspired men disagreed on any point while both were speaking under inspiration. If so, I'd like to examine it.--Duval again.

 

[Vic C.]

Actually, there were at least two; one in Acts 15 and one in Gal. 2. 8-)

 

[turnorburn]

When you refer to guided teachers of "whom" do you speak?

Dadof10 its wonderful to be free of the yokes of all men and be measured only by the scripture.

Who's interpretation of Scripture? If two "Holy Spirit" guided teachers disagree on a point of doctrine, which intrepretation is the Truth?

How are you "free of the yokes of all men", when some man (you) or group of men (a church) must interpret Scripture? It would be "wonderful" if it was self-interpreting, but it's not.

 

[duval]

If I's understanding the Book correctly in Acts 15 and Gal.2, there was no disagreement between what apostles spoke while under inspiration. The flack between Paul and Peter was conduct. Paul withstood him to face and there is no record of Peter's response to the contrary. Paul then spoke very strongly on the subject by inspiration and the matter was settled. In Acts 15 the problem arose with uninspired men. I find no disagreement among the inspired apostles. Elders as such were not necessarily inspired unless they had received one of the 9 gifts of the Spirit as recorded in ICor.12. True, there was conflict, but not about inspired words.

 

[turnorburn]

I'm waiting until we reach 100 pages before I reply, maybe by then you'll have it figured out but somehow I doubt it.

 

[dadof10]

The Bible is its own BEST commentary. Paul said in Eph.3:4: "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ" ---Paul said we could. He was inspired, I believe him.---In Christian love, Duval

If the Bible were it's own best commentary, the Reformers would have agreed and there would be only one Protestant church.

As far as the verses in Ephesians, Paul is writing about something specific, his mission to the Gentiles.

"When you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that is, how the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

 

[dadof10]

When you refer to guided teachers of "whom" do you speak?

Dadof10 its wonderful to be free of the yokes of all men and be measured only by the scripture.

Who's interpretation of Scripture? If two "Holy Spirit" guided teachers disagree on a point of doctrine, which intrepretation is the Truth?

How are you "free of the yokes of all men", when some man (you) or group of men (a church) must interpret Scripture? It would be "wonderful" if it was self-interpreting, but it's not.

After I post my answer, will you engage in this discussion, or just disappear only to return with more trolling?

 

[dadof10]

I'm waiting until we reach 100 pages before I reply, maybe by then you'll have it figured out but somehow I doubt it.

Got my answer.

 

[duval]

If refering to me for an answer, as long as God gives me strength of body and mind I'll always have a will to engage. I don't need to wait for 100 pages. However I probably would prefer another method of writing than this as going back and forth finally becomes confusing, at least to slow fingers me.-------Keep well, with kind regards, Duval

 

[francisdesales]

Response to Francisdesales post of 8-13-8
Are you saying the Catholic Cat. is inspired??

No. But it HAS been given authority to infallibly interpret. Are you inspired to infallibly interpret the Scriptures? If so, I await your proof...

I have given you Matthew 18: 16-17. I notice you completely ignore it. That says enough about where this is going...

I made absolutely no affirmation of any authority appointed me to discern inspiration ( go back and read ) other than what the scriptures give all men who read it.

Yes, you have. You claim to KNOW when the Catholic Church is wrong. You claim to know more than they do - and yet, offer no proof of your authority, no evidence of your superior wisdom, no evidence from Scriptures that "Duval" will judge God's Church when it is "wrong" and when it is "right". Either you or the Catholic Church for hundreds of years before Luther was wrong... The Church has backing from Scriptures, you don't.

Basically, you are trying to twist Scriptures to say...

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto DUVAL: but if he neglect to hear the DUVAL, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican Mat 18:16-17, with minor adjustments to fit DUVAL'S theology...

Note, the ACTUAL Scriptures say, "two or three", and then the "Church" - not Duval...

Sorry, the bottom line is over authority, and you have none over anyone but yourself. God didn't create such a "church" of one, each to his own to believe what he feels like believing. God established a COMMUNITY of believers with men given authority over these people. This is crystal clear in the Scriptures, esp. the Pastorals. NOWHERE does it give authority to individuals like you and me to judge the Church's decisions on dogmatic proclamations that the Spirit gives to us through the Church...

I do not regard Catholic writers or other religious parties writings as inspired, only the Bible, the Old and New Testaments. Return to my post and the scriptures offered therein as to how any man can identify false teaching, and yet I shall give you one more passage. "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" I Jn.4:1.

Which tells me, by common sense, that you are one of these false prophets, since you are in contradistinction to what God has already said to men following the Spirit hundreds of years ago. Note, in John's quote, it says that the truth has ALREADY BEEN GIVEN. It didn't need to await Martin Luther...

The question is not over inspired literature - we both agree that only Scripture is inspired - the question is over proper interpretation of this literature. God's Spirit remains active in His Church, the pillar and foundation of the truth. No mention of "duval" in the Scriptures.

Sorry, the Spirit was active in the Church 1000 years before Luther. It was Luther and his followers that deviated from what God's Spirit had already said.

Regards

 

[duval]

Replyto francisdesales:
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Now I better understand where the term"building a strawman." Yours is as perfect as I've ever seen. NOWHERE in scripture is it taught the R.C. church has been authority to interpret scripture, if so show me. With any thing said, my words, yours or anything elses who are uninspired can have what we teach placed beside what the scripture says and be compared. Compare what the R. Catholic church (or any other) teaches with what the Bible teaches and see the difference. The onliy one who has given authority to the R.church to rightfully interpret scripture is the Roman Catholic church ITSELF. Want to pick a subject and compare??? Ask and you shall receive!I speak strongly on this, but with respect.--Duval

 

[francisdesales]

Replyto francisdesales:
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Now I better understand where the term"building a strawman." Yours is as perfect as I've ever seen.

Naturally... But you are the one who claims to judge when the Catholic Church is wrong, not me...

NOWHERE in scripture is it taught the R.C. church has been authority to interpret scripture, if so show me.

I have twice already, and you have yet to address it.

With any thing said, my words, yours or anything elses who are uninspired can have what we teach placed beside what the scripture says and be compared. Compare what the R. Catholic church (or any other) teaches with what the Bible teaches and see the difference.

I don't see anything that the Catholic Church teaches that is against what the Bible teaches. And why would it? The Church IS the pillar and foundation of the truth because of the Spirit. There is no other historical Church that can make the claim to be the Church of Christ, so it remains for you to show me the "other" Church that Jesus is "really" talking about in Matthew 18...

The onliy one who has given authority to the R.church to rightfully interpret scripture is the Roman Catholic church ITSELF.

Actually, the Bible does, as well. As do the first Christians.

Want to pick a subject and compare??? Ask and you shall receive!I speak strongly on this, but with respect.--

Go for it. I have been doing this for years and am quite capable of defending the Catholic position. Feel free to ask others here...

But be prepared for me to discuss the Protestant pillars that are not found in Scriptures. This won't be a one-sided attack fest on Catholicism here.

We'll start with Sola Scriptura and go from there.

Regards

 

[dadof10]

Compare what the R. Catholic church (or any other) teaches with what the Bible teaches and see the difference.

O.K. let's take baptism, since it is the OP. 1PT: "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him."

This is what the Catholic Church teaches. The Orthodox and Armenians, (I think) as well. I don't know of any Protestant churches that teach water Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Seems like only the Catholic Church is consistant with Scripture, at least on this one point.

 

[duval]

For dadof10 and Francisdesales:
I humbly accept the challenge. Have irons in the fire at present and must attend the assembly in about an hour. Will be back with you later tonight or tomorrow. God willing

 

[duval]

Francisdesales:
I humblly accept your challenge. Please define your chosen subject and proceed.
Gratefullly, duval

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales:
I humblly accept your challenge. Please define your chosen subject and proceed.
Gratefullly, duval

I am not challenging you. I said I am able to defend my faith, and if necessary, can show various Protestant theology at odds with Scriptures.

This site has a debate site. If you are so inclined to use it, let me know.

Regards