Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?

[Imagican]

dad,

I can show you the color yellow. I can show you an elongated fruit. I can show you the peeling of the fruit and the fruit itself. But I CANNOT MAKE you SEE that it is a banana. You may 'choose' to call it a 'phisbot'. Heck, you may even choose to 'worship' the 'phisbot'. But in TRUTH it IS a banana.

Here's a little insight into the issue. NEVER once have we been offered that TO SIMPLY BE BAPTIZED is to BE SAVED. Not only is it offered in addition to 'other things' in the statements CONCERNING IT, but if we read The Word as a WHOLE, there is MUCH more to BEING 'saved' than Baptism.

Can I SHOW you where the Bible STATES: "Baptism is NOT enough"? Yes and NO. I can, but that doesn't mean that you'd be WILLING to accept the 'words' as such.

But we can see through the parables offered by Christ that Heaing the Word is NOT ENOUGH. ACCEPTING The Word is NOT enough. For FAITH without works is DEAD. That it's NOT ABOUT the hearers of the Word but the DOERS of it. I can go on and on with these but it's a wasted effort if one has already subscribed to a 'certain belief system' that teaches DIFFERENTLY.

An EXPERT? ME? By NO MEANS. But I AM able to accept and BELIEVE in what is offered in The Word. And I have NOT been influenced by ANY particular denomination in the respect of Baptism or many other 'doctrines'. I have simply approached The Word with an open heart and an open mind and have allowed The Spirit to plant the seeds of understanding rather than MEN.

Now, let's go BACK to the topic: I ask YOU, IS 'water Baptism ENOUGH'? Is that ALL one NEED DO in order to BE SAVED? IF one is Baptised, does that ASSURE them a PLACE IN HEAVEN? For THIS Is the ISSUE that we NEED to determine in order to 'get PAST' this MOST basic of issues. Once we are ABLE to discern the ANSWER to this question, THEN we are able to MOVE AHEAD to DEFINING the LIMITS of WHAT IS ENOUGH or what is NEEDED 'other THAN' Baptism.

Look folks, we were NEVER told to STOP. We were NEVER told to 'give in'. We were NEVER told to START a 'good work' and that's OK. We were TOLD to 'run the race like we mean to WIN IT. There is MUCH offered in this SIMPLE statement. It's KIND of like the guy who worked all day being bummed at the guy that worked fifteen minutes and got paid the SAME thing. The purpose of this parable was to offer that the man that was 'bummed' was DEAD WRONG. It's not up to US to determine a 'gift' that is offered. Nor should we ONLY be willing to DO for the 'gift'. AND, what is JUST as important is the ENTIRE parable deals with WORK. There is NOTHING that is worthy of ownership WITHOUT the WORK that it takes to obtain it.

Boy, I can hear the voices already: "you CANNOT ''work'' your way to Salvation!!!!!!!!" I agree. But you CANNOT SHOW your FAITH WITHOUT WORKS. ANYONE can SAY anything, but it's the FRUIT that bears witness of the WORDS. WHAT do you TRULY believe it MEANS to 'BEAR One's OWN cross'. What do you BELIEVE that it MEANS to FOLLOW Christ? He NOT ONLY offered that we are to LISTEN to His words, but He states OPENLY and CLEARLY that we are to DO EXACTLY what HE DID if that is what is REQUIRED of US. And WHAT did He DO? He LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR US. And we are NO LESS bound by this SAME obligation. And He further offers that we MUST be WILLING to offer the SAME LOVE for God and our neighbors or WE ARE NOT WORTHY.

Folks, we are NOT able to 'pick and choose' the PARTS of The Word that we LIKE and simply follow THESE. We are BOUND to follow the ENTIRE Word. Perfectly? I have yet to witness any but Christ that was ABLE. But to the BEST of our ABILITY and through the strength and guidance of The Spirit we CAN produce that which we are GIVEN. And that is NOT TOO MUCH to GIVE in return for the wonderous LOVE we have been offered in EXAMPLE. Think about it........

MEC

 

[dadof10]

Here's a little insight into the issue. NEVER once have we been offered that TO SIMPLY BE BAPTIZED is to BE SAVED.

Yes we have:

In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you alsoâ€â€not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right handâ€â€with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
1PT 3:20-22

Notice water baptism is how the merits of the resurrection are applied?

I can go on and on with these but it's a wasted effort if one has already subscribed to a 'certain belief system' that teaches DIFFERENTLY.

Will you accept the plain words of Scripture?

But I AM able to accept and BELIEVE in what is offered in The Word. And I have NOT been influenced by ANY particular denomination in the respect of Baptism or many other 'doctrines'. I have simply approached The Word with an open heart and an open mind and have allowed The Spirit to plant the seeds of understanding rather than MEN.

Good. So you'll be agreeing with me on this issue, then? ;-)

Now, let's go BACK to the topic: I ask YOU, IS 'water Baptism ENOUGH'? Is that ALL one NEED DO in order to BE SAVED?

Yes. At the moment of baptism you are saved and that's all you need to go directly to Heaven. It's called GRACE. Pure grace. You don't have to earn it by "accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior", it is freely given to most of us as infants. This is the ordinary means of salvation.

The problem is, you can lose that salvation through sin and you must OBEY, which is why you are right when you say:

But we can see through the parables offered by Christ that Heaing the Word is NOT ENOUGH. ACCEPTING The Word is NOT enough. For FAITH without works is DEAD. That it's NOT ABOUT the hearers of the Word but the DOERS of it. I can go on and on with these but it's a wasted effort if one has already subscribed to a 'certain belief system' that teaches DIFFERENTLY.

And...

Look folks, we were NEVER told to STOP. We were NEVER told to 'give in'. We were NEVER told to START a 'good work' and that's OK. We were TOLD to 'run the race like we mean to WIN IT. There is MUCH offered in this SIMPLE statement. It's KIND of like the guy who worked all day being bummed at the guy that worked fifteen minutes and got paid the SAME thing. The purpose of this parable was to offer that the man that was 'bummed' was DEAD WRONG. It's not up to US to determine a 'gift' that is offered. Nor should we ONLY be willing to DO for the 'gift'. AND, what is JUST as important is the ENTIRE parable deals with WORK. There is NOTHING that is worthy of ownership WITHOUT the WORK that it takes to obtain it.

And...

Boy, I can hear the voices already: "you CANNOT ''work'' your way to Salvation!!!!!!!!" I agree. But you CANNOT SHOW your FAITH WITHOUT WORKS. ANYONE can SAY anything, but it's the FRUIT that bears witness of the WORDS. WHAT do you TRULY believe it MEANS to 'BEAR One's OWN cross'. What do you BELIEVE that it MEANS to FOLLOW Christ? He NOT ONLY offered that we are to LISTEN to His words, but He states OPENLY and CLEARLY that we are to DO EXACTLY what HE DID if that is what is REQUIRED of US. And WHAT did He DO? He LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR US. And we are NO LESS bound by this SAME obligation. And He further offers that we MUST be WILLING to offer the SAME LOVE for God and our neighbors or WE ARE NOT WORTHY.

And, finally...

Folks, we are NOT able to 'pick and choose' the PARTS of The Word that we LIKE and simply follow THESE. We are BOUND to follow the ENTIRE Word. Perfectly? I have yet to witness any but Christ that was ABLE. But to the BEST of our ABILITY and through the strength and guidance of The Spirit we CAN produce that which we are GIVEN. And that is NOT TOO MUCH to GIVE in return for the wonderous LOVE we have been offered in EXAMPLE. Think about it........

Amen, Brother...

 

[Scott1]

Yes. At the moment of baptism you are saved and that's all you need to go directly to Heaven. It's called GRACE. Pure grace. You don't have to earn it by "accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior", it is freely given to most of us as infants. This is the ordinary means of salvation.

NOW I think I understand..... Baptism saves... and Baptism DOES NOT save... both are true. :D

So the little baby goes to Church, is baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit..... and then the church collapses and kills everyone inside.... that baby is saved by the baptism.... baby goes to heaven. Baptism has saved him by the grace of God provided by the sacrament without an "adult-explicit affirmation" that Jesus is Lord.

For just about everyone else who is not so fortunate to go directly to heaven... we will grow up ... we will sin...... so we need the grace of God to reconcile us with Christ and lead us to everlasting life by a life lived in conformity with the Gospel and faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

That sound about right?

 

[dadof10]

NOW I think I understand..... Baptism saves... and Baptism DOES NOT save... both are true. :D

I think it's more accurate to say Baptism saves but we can lose that salvation.

So the little baby goes to Church, is baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit..... and then the church collapses and kills everyone inside.... that baby is saved by the baptism.... baby goes to heaven. Baptism has saved him by the grace of God provided by the sacrament without an "adult-explicit affirmation" that Jesus is Lord.

Exactly.

For just about everyone else who is not so fortunate to go directly to heaven... we will grow up ... we will sin...... so we need the grace of God to reconcile us with Christ and lead us to everlasting life by a life lived in conformity with the Gospel and faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

That sound about right?

Yep. We must "accept Jesus...' throughout our lives, not just one time.

 

[Scott1]

I think it's more accurate to say Baptism saves but we can lose that salvation.

Fair enough...

Exactly.
-----------------------------
Yep. We must "accept Jesus...' throughout our lives, not just one time.

Cool.... glad we could work that out together.

 

[Imagican]

I HATE to BE the _____'_ Advocat here but I am FORCED to ask a question:

What about the innocent Child that was NOT Baptized? WHAT happens to IT? The child that played the SAME part in NOT being Baptized as the ONE that WAS? For NEITHER is 'responsible' for EITHER BEING or NOT BEING Baptized?

MEC

 

[biblecatholic]

I HATE to BE the _____'_ Advocat here but I am FORCED to ask a question:

What about the innocent Child that was NOT Baptized? WHAT happens to IT? The child that played the SAME part in NOT being Baptized as the ONE that WAS? For NEITHER is 'responsible' for EITHER BEING or NOT BEING Baptized?

MEC

They were born in sin and since no one knows for certain we trust in the mercy of God and pray that He will allow them into heaven. Scripturally there is no evidence-just silence on this particular subject-that a child that has not been baptized or a child that has not made a "profession of faith" will be saved.

so anyone believing they will be saved(and I am on who believes this) is going extra-biblical sources

 

[cyberjosh]

Id love to be baptised on a beach in front of non believers,that would be sooo cool. :D

In salt water? Ick! I think John baptized in the Jordan for a reason.... :wink:

 

[Imagican]

I HATE to BE the _____'_ Advocat here but I am FORCED to ask a question:

What about the innocent Child that was NOT Baptized? WHAT happens to IT? The child that played the SAME part in NOT being Baptized as the ONE that WAS? For NEITHER is 'responsible' for EITHER BEING or NOT BEING Baptized?

MEC

They were born in sin and since no one knows for certain we trust in the mercy of God and pray that He will allow them into heaven. Scripturally there is no evidence-just silence on this particular subject-that a child that has not been baptized or a child that has not made a "profession of faith" will be saved.

so anyone believing they will be saved(and I am on who believes this) is going extra-biblical sources

Please let me offer this then:

Although ALL are 'born into SIN' that does NOT mean that one is ABLE to be HELD responsible for sin UNTIL they are ABLE to distinguish 'right from WRONG'. But YOU know that sin is NOT sin UNTIL one is able to DISTINGUISH this in their HEARTS. If this were SO, then none COULD PERFORM one IOTA that we have been COMMANDED to. For it IS conviction of the Holy Spirit that EXPOSES sin in our HEARTS. Other than the LAW, we are BOUND to rely on that which is offered FROM the Holy Spirit in order to discern that which IS and that which is NOT righteous.

NO ONE is born with this knowledge. How SOON after birth one COMES to this 'responsibility' is what we would NEED do in order to HAVE an understanding of WHEN one is TRULY held responsible for THEIR sins. We are BORN into our FATHER'S sins, (those of the flesh that existed BEFORE our conception), NOT OUR OWN. That we are BOUND by the flesh to PERFORM sin is NOT the question, but WHEN does one BECOME responsible for THEIR OWN SINS. To BELIEVE that a BABY is responsible would be that same as BELIEVING that one CRIES JUST to IRRITATE others and PUNISH them for OUR lack of UNDERSTANDING.

I CANNOT believe that we have a God that would be THIS unfair when we have been PLAINLY offered that we will EACH be judged. Now WHAT possible judgement could be BROUGHT against an INNOCENT Child?

And Christ Himself took a CHILD upon His knee and offered that it would be those that WERE LIKE THESE, (children), that would INHERIT 'eternal life'.

So, while there is NO 'outright STATEMENT' concerning the CONDITION of the spirit or soul of a CHILD, we certainly ARE able to discern MUCH from what IS OFFERED in inuendo or indication. Now, whether there is ACCEPTANCE of such is most CERTAINLY up to the individual or organization.

MEC

 

[dadof10]

I think it's more accurate to say Baptism saves but we can lose that salvation.

Fair enough...

Exactly.
-----------------------------
Yep. We must "accept Jesus...' throughout our lives, not just one time.

Cool.... glad we could work that out together.

Me too!!

 

[dadof10]

Id love to be baptised on a beach in front of non believers,that would be sooo cool. :D

Why in front of non-believers?

 

[dadof10]

I CANNOT believe that we have a God that would be THIS unfair when we have been PLAINLY offered that we will EACH be judged. Now WHAT possible judgement could be BROUGHT against an INNOCENT Child?

And Christ Himself took a CHILD upon His knee and offered that it would be those that WERE LIKE THESE, (children), that would INHERIT 'eternal life'.

You must not be a Calvinist ;-)

Keep in mind that infant baptism, then living a holy life by the Grace of God is the ORDINARY way of salvation. The Catholic Church does not limit God and prays that ALL will be saved. There are extra-ordinary means of salvation, and I'm sure a baby who dies without baptism is not roasting in Hell. God is just AND merciful. He saves in ways we have not been shown, otherwise we would have to believe all Muslems, American Indians, Hindus, etc. are in Hell. It has only been revealed to us some who are in Heaven, we don't know of one person who is in Hell.

So you agree with me that Scripture claims water baptism saves, like it says in 1Peter?

 

[dadof10]

They were born in sin and since no one knows for certain we trust in the mercy of God and pray that He will allow them into heaven. Scripturally there is no evidence-just silence on this particular subject-that a child that has not been baptized or a child that has not made a "profession of faith" will be saved.

so anyone believing they will be saved(and I am on who believes this) is going extra-biblical sources

Good answer!!

 

[MarkT]

Jesus asked about John's baptism, and I would ask the same. Was John's baptism from heaven or from men. In other words, where did John's authority to baptize with water come from? Who baptized John? Clearly John's authority came from heaven. He was baptized with water alright; the living water; the word of God. John baptized with water to make straight the way of the Lord. John preached repentance, and everyone who was baptized by him, confessed their sins. All these things are witnesses, not signs. Water baptism; a witness that we have confessed our sins. But you have to confess your sins, and repent. It's only through confession and repentance that we can be forgiven. Like Peter said, it's an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That means you believe God has forgiven you through Christ, and you are now in him; alive in Christ. So there are two things; repent and believe, and there are three witnesses; the Spirit, which I'm guessing Catholics don't believe we have received, the water, which is the witness of our confession, and the blood, which is the blood of Jesus Christ who was sacrificed for the forgiveness of sin. But the water in this case refers to the word of God; that God himself, through Jesus Christ, made us sons, and being sons we speak the truth. We have become springs of living water ourselves. So the witness of the water is the knowledge of God. When the knowledge of God comes to us, it comes like water to a thirsty soul. The importance of the water is therefore the importance of our confession. The question of whether water baptism is essential or even necessary is like asking God whether we need to be forgiven. The answer is yes. Most churches do baptize with water. I wouldn't argue that it isn't necessary as long as they understand what they are doing; making an appeal to God, confessing their sins and repenting and asking God to forgive them.

 

[Imagican]

dad,

I know it seems as though evasion of the question is being attemted but I assure you that it is NOT. You have admitted YOURSELF that God IS able to SAVE those that He WILL REGARDLESS of our petty attempts at 'holiness'.

Now a question BEFORE I am ABLE to answer yours, (I WILL I assure you).

Does one HAVE to BE Baptized in WATER to BE Saved?

MEC

 

[MarkT]

Imagican

Our knowledge isn't perfect. I'd say if it comes from God, then do it. It's good for the soul. If it increases our faith, then it is good. If we do it because we love God, if the Spirit moves us, then do it. But let's not argue about it. Unless we have something from God. Then do let us be edified.

The devil has been keeping me away my friends. He's very strong and very subtle. Just one more day, he said. Just take care of this worldly thing, that worldly thing; keeping my thoughts on the business of the world. Make your father happy. My father hates what I'm doing. He says no one would agree with me. He hates it when I come to you. He calls it a waste of time. But I have not left you. The Holy Spirit convicted me. The fear of God drove me. I will not leave God willing. I'm just saying be a light but don't argue to be right because all things belong to God. Even our thoughts are subject to him.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Does one HAVE to BE Baptized in WATER to BE Saved?

The question should be: Must we obey the Word of God? YES. And does the Word say we must be baptised? YES. The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation in John 3:5.

Now does this mean that God may save someone who didn't get baptised, like the thief on the cross. Sure, God can do that. But that is not the green light for us to say we don't have to do what the Bible says we must do. We have a saying on our side of the tracks: We are bound by the sacraments but God is not. In other words, we must do these things, but God can still save who He pleases.

Christians always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12), and they have always interpreted that as WATER BAPTISM. Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

The Christian belief that water baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6).

 

[Alabaster]

Our faith in Jesus Christ saves us. Baptism is our first obedient act, once saved. Baptism is not for sinners...it is for the believer!

 

[MarkT]

Does one HAVE to BE Baptized in WATER to BE Saved?

The question should be: Must we obey the Word of God? YES. And does the Word say we must be baptised? YES. The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation in John 3:5.

Now does this mean that God may save someone who didn't get baptised, like the thief on the cross. Sure, God can do that. But that is not the green light for us to say we don't have to do what the Bible says we must do. We have a saying on our side of the tracks: We are bound by the sacraments but God is not. In other words, we must do these things, but God can still save who He pleases.

Christians always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12), and they have always interpreted that as WATER BAPTISM. Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

The Christian belief that water baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6).

But Jesus gave us living water to wash the inside of the cup. Water baptism is an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Water baptism is important, but Jesus's baptism is greater.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

But Jesus gave us living water to wash the inside of the cup. Water baptism is an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Water baptism is important, but Jesus's baptism is greater.

Well, that is fuel for a discussion on sacramental theology.