Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?

[MarkT]

Let me put it this way. You can ask God to forgive you but unless you listen to God, turn away from making and worshipping idols, he won't.

Idols? May I ask you to elaborate?

Even the Pharisees and Sadducees came to John to be baptized. John called them 'vipers'. But the Bible doesn't say John refused to baptize them. Jesus called them serpents, referring to their father, the Serpent of Old, being they were of their father the devil. Now being of the devil, they were not going to escape the devil's punishment, whether they were baptized or not, because the devil's punishment is for him and his sons. These are the ones who promote the devil's lies.

Anyone can be baptized but unless the words of God are planted in your heart, how can you say you have made a right confession? The Pharisees and the Sadducees didn't know Jesus. They didn't know the scriptures. They came around to test him. To argue with him. They came around to justify themselves, according to their own traditions, not knowing who it was they were talking to. Now you say you want me to tell you about making idols?

Exodus 20:4-6 'You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God' visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to the thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."

'Therefore take heed to yourselves. Since you saw no form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female ..." Deut. 4:16

Why can't the Catholic church resist making graven images? It doesn't matter that you can rationalize it. A little leaven and the whole lump is leavened, and you won't even know it. See how it has progressed to praying to the saints and Mary, and making her the Mother of God? It starts with making statues, and then it progresses to kneeling and praying to the statue, and pretty soon the person or creature is equated with the Creator. Now you have nuns that serve Mary. Are these men and women equal to God? Can you make a statue big enough to represent God? Do you know what God looks like?

 

[Scott1]

Why can't the Catholic church resist making graven images? It doesn't matter that you can rationalize it.

To be clear... it's not "THE CHURCH" that orders these things.... they are built by the people of God.... I was on the building comm. for our newest parrish, and every detail was settled with only limited supervision by the priest--- and none from the diocese.

I personally don't use them in my worship... I prefer icons (see picture below)... and they are not "graven images" for certain.... but I don't judge people who choose to incorporate them into their faith.

For the "average" Catholic, statues play little or no part of their life of faith... they are in my Church when I go to Mass, but it's not part of the service at all... and not many of us have statues in our homes that are part of personal prayer (other than Christ).... so I don't see what the fuss is.

It has nothing to do with their salvation.... so why judge?

In Christ,
S

 

[MarkT]

I'm not judging anyone Scott. I know how to rationalize too. I'm a sinner, and I do the same thing. I rationalize doing things I know are against the Spirit, like smoking and gambling, for example. It takes a sinner to know one. But making statues is so obviously wrong. How can you not notice them?

All I'm saying is the CC is far off track. Why is it that you think the Pope is the only one who can receive the Holy Spirit? And why do you think it makes him infallible? And why do you call him Holy? Only God is Holy. And Holy Mary? What is that? Where does this come from if not from corruption? Please don't tell me it's tradition, because it goes against everything that is in the Bible. The most vicious sons of the devil I have ever encountered say they are part of the Catholic church. That's not an indictment of the whole church necessarily. If it was, I would be indicting myself, because my beginnings are in the Catholic church - Greek Catholic. I'm just saying there are many sons of the evil one in the RCC. For some reason or another, they are there.

Let's say your rationalization is allowed. How do you figure they are the most vocal defenders of their traditions and yet they have no knowledge of God? They have no understanding. They honor God with their lips, but their heart is far from him. They don't seek knowledge or truth. They don't grow. Our knowledge of God is supposed to be continually growing. The function of the Holy Spirit is to lead us to understand the scriptures, and to lead us to find the knowledge of God. But they are like trees that need water, but they don't get the water that comes from God, and so they are dried up, and so good for nothing but the fire.

It wasn't really my intention to get into the statue making thing but it occurred to me that they can't listen to God. They are to busy with statues that can't hear or speak.

 

[Scott1]

I'm not judging anyone Scott.

You most certainly are.... and to add sin upon sin... you're judging me based upon your own ingnorance of the truth..... for examples, read on....

Why is it that you think the Pope is the only one who can receive the Holy Spirit?

I don't think that... and it is not the truth.

And why do you think it makes him infallible?

He's not infallible... his office is.

And why do you call him Holy?

I am Holy as well, praise God. "Justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God," 2 Cor 6:11 "sanctified . . . [and] called to be saints," 1 Cor 1:2. Christians have become the temple of the Holy Spirit.1 Cor 6:19.

.... no sense in going on.... your anger and hatred have blinded you to the love being offered to you by a fellow Christian. I pray that our Lord heals you.... bind that judgement and malice and toss them to the foot of the Cross. All the more evidence that water baptism is NOT enough.

Your brother in Christ,
Scott

 

[Imagican]

So by being into drums very heavily. is this a form of idolatry?
Being very materialistic.

Only if they become more important to you than God.

ALLOW me to acnowledge your reply CC. For THIS is 'exactly' what we discussed previous on the 'art' and 'idols' threads. It SEEMED then that FEW were willing to accept that 'coveteousness IS Idolotry'. And to covet is to simply PINE FOR. 'That' which we LONG FOR IS what we covet. While a 'longing for the love and mercy of God would be RIGHTEOUS, placing our faith or desire in that which is MATERIAL or of an OVERBEARING nature WOULD BE 'idolotry'.

So, you ARE correct in your acknowledgement that IF you place you DRUMS or 'CARS' or MONEY, or HOUSE, or ANYTHING ABOVE God, then you have ignored what we have been COMMANDED, BY CHRIST, to DO; To LOVE God with ALL your heart, mind and soul. To place these 'things' ABOVE your neighbor is LITTLE different. For what you PLACE in a position of IMPORTANCE in your life IS that which you LOVE. And there is NO WAY to be ABLE to OFFER that love that we have been COMMANDED to offer when we place the MATERIAL ABOVE the Spiritual.

I didn't IGNORE you post previous, I simply missed it. And I am ALMOST as amazed in YOUR statement as I was when I read that of Scots' concerning WHAT 'idolotry' TRULY iS. For there are FEW that seem WILLING to accept this understanding for the sake of their concience. And even then, FEWER that will actually SPEAK OUT and SHOW others their ERROR of their ways in this respect.

Blessings my brother,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

So by being into drums very heavily. is this a form of idolatry?
Being very materialistic.

john,

Let me see if I can offer a 'bit deeper understanding' concerning this question.

We are COMMANDED to LOVE. Love God and Love our neighbors. THAT is what separates those that are LED by The Spirit from those that LIVE FOR this world. While it would be NICE if we could simply IGNORE that which does not PLEASE the Flesh, it is an IMPOSSIBILITY so far as GOD is concerned.

Look at it this way:

How VAIN is it for US to 'worship' a 'guitar', a car, a set of drums, ect............ The list is ENDLESS. But LOOK at what HAPPENS when we begin to OFFER our LOVE to such 'things'. We are LITERALLY 'taking away' that which we SHOULD be offering to GOD and our neighbors. It becomes a matter of SELF worship rather than the devotion that has been commanded to BE reserve to GOD alone and the LOVE that we have been commanded to offer HIM, above all else, and our NEIGHBORS AS OURSELVES. When we 'take this LOVE AWAY' from where it supposed to BE placed, we commit ourselves to the SAME situation that Satan found HIMSELF when he became ENVIOUS of God. He believed that he COULD do things HIS way instead of THE WAY. We too end up in this SAME position in regards to TRUTH when WE DECIDE that WE can do it OUR WAY.

When we devote ourselves to 'an instrument', or an 'art' or to MONEY, or to even 'a church BUILDING or individual group for the sake of denominationalism', we have SEPARATED ourselves from that which we have BEEN commanded to BE A PART OF. We were told to LOVE our NEIGHBORS, (NOT CERTAIN NEIGHBORS, but ALL OF THEM. We were told to place God ABOVE ALL else. NOT just those things that we are WILLING to place Him ABOVE, but ALL things; including FAMILY, friends, cars, money, etc........)

And it's NOT a matter of God being a SELFISH GOD, (for He is NOT), but He IS a 'jealous God' and EXPECTS us to recognize what WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN. Not only in the LIFE which we have here, but in ALL that He has offered in LOVE towards us. We CANNOT ackowledge this in ANYWAY that WE deem FIT. WE are BOUND to offer the honor and glory the WAY God has SHOWN us is PROPER. The ONLY 'true' way.

Hopefully this is able to offer just HOW difficult it is to 'put aside' those THINGS of 'this world', (to put away the OLD MAN), and take on THAT which IS Holy.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[dadof10]

Water baptism; a witness that we have confessed our sins.

Where does Scripture give this definition of Baptism?

Like Peter said, it's an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That means you believe God has forgiven you through Christ, and you are now in him; alive in Christ.

You are shuffling the verses to bolster your case.

First Peter says: "In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you alsoâ€â€not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God."

Then the next verse: "It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right handâ€â€with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him."

This means that Baptism saves by the merits of Jesus resurrection. Baptism is how those merits are applied to us.

Nice try, though.

 

[MarkT]

I'm not judging anyone Scott.

You most certainly are.... and to add sin upon sin... you're judging me based upon your own ingnorance of the truth..... for examples, read on....

Why is it that you think the Pope is the only one who can receive the Holy Spirit?

I don't think that... and it is not the truth.
[quote:d5e30] And why do you think it makes him infallible?

He's not infallible... his office is.

And why do you call him Holy?

I am Holy as well, praise God. "Justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God," 2 Cor 6:11 "sanctified . . . [and] called to be saints," 1 Cor 1:2. Christians have become the temple of the Holy Spirit.1 Cor 6:19.

.... no sense in going on.... your anger and hatred have blinded you to the love being offered to you by a fellow Christian. I pray that our Lord heals you.... bind that judgement and malice and toss them to the foot of the Cross. All the more evidence that water baptism is NOT enough.

Your brother in Christ,
Scott[/quote:d5e30]

Is there no way to say anything to you without you thinking I am being hateful and angry? LOL. I'm not angry or hateful Scott. There are RCC people on this forum that have a good spirit. Go figure. The same church, different spirits. But that is how Jesus said it would be. And I sense you have a good spirit. You said the statues don't play a part in your worship and I believe you. You say it's true of the average Catholic and I believe you. It's not my intention to threaten the structure of the church or anyone's house, but I am like the wind. If I blow on it and test it. If I test it and it falls, as you probably know, great will be the fall of it.

You say the Pope's office makes him infallible. Well, all authority comes from God. I understand his position as the leader of the RCC, but I don't think it makes him infallible. Still, are you saying the 'Holy Father' is an office that makes the Pope infallible or is the Pope the Holy Father? The 'Holy Father' would be God wouldn't it? As in, 'Holy Father, keep them in thy name.' John 17:11 Jesus was praying to our Father.

According to Paul, God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, etc. 1 Cor. 12:28 I don't see where the office of 'Holy Father' is established.

 

[dadof10]

dad,

I know it seems as though evasion of the question is being attemted but I assure you that it is NOT. You have admitted YOURSELF that God IS able to SAVE those that He WILL REGARDLESS of our petty attempts at 'holiness'.

I don't think you are evading the question. You probably just don't have time. I know how that goes, I can't respond to most of the posts I would like to.

Yes, God is "able to SAVE" in many ways. Infant Baptism, reception of the other Sacraments, then growing in holiness and obedience throughout our lives until the moment of death, is the ORDINARY MEANS of salvation. Some can't accept this, yet can be saved.

Now a question BEFORE I am ABLE to answer yours, (I WILL I assure you).

Does one HAVE to BE Baptized in WATER to BE Saved?

I already answered this on 5/5, you probably missed it so, I'll repost:

You asked: "Now, let's go BACK to the topic: I ask YOU, IS 'water Baptism ENOUGH'? Is that ALL one NEED DO in order to BE SAVED?"

I answered: "Yes. At the moment of baptism you are saved and that's all you need to go directly to Heaven. It's called GRACE. Pure grace. You don't have to earn it by "accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior", it is freely given to most of us as infants. This is the ordinary means of salvation.

The problem is, you can lose that salvation through sin and you must OBEY, which is why you are right when you say:..."

 

[MarkT]

Water baptism; a witness that we have confessed our sins.

Where does Scripture give this definition of Baptism?

It follows that baptism would be seen by God as an appeal for a clear conscience (forgiveness) through Christ (His Word). Baptism is a confession of sin.

Like Peter said, it's an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That means you believe God has forgiven you through Christ, and you are now in him; alive in Christ.

You are shuffling the verses to bolster your case.

First Peter says: "In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you alsoâ€â€not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God."

Then the next verse: "It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right handâ€â€with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him."

This means that Baptism saves by the merits of Jesus resurrection. Baptism is how those merits are applied to us.

Nice try, though.

I don't know what Bible you are using but the RSV doesn't say baptism is a pledge of good conscience toward God. That sounds like you are making a promise to forgive God.

Peter said, 'To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name' I agree we are baptized in his name.

But the Holy Spirit falls on those who hear the word and believe. And Peter said baptism corresponds to an appeal to God for forgiveness (a clear conscience). When we hear the word it's like the prodigal son who comes to his senses. He turns back to make an appeal to his father. The father sees him from afar and is overjoyed that his son has come back. And yes, all of this is possible because Jesus was resurrected and all angels and authorities and powers are subject to him.

 

[Scott1]

Is there no way to say anything to you without you thinking I am being hateful and angry? LOL.

Sure... say something positive and without judgement..... and yes, I get it, it's a forum..... but I would never go onto a non-Catholic forum and start telling them why their faith was "wrong", but I guess that's just me.

You say the Pope's office makes him infallible. Well, all authority comes from God. I understand his position as the leader of the RCC, but I don't think it makes him infallible. Still, are you saying the 'Holy Father' is an office that makes the Pope infallible or is the Pope the Holy Father? The 'Holy Father' would be God wouldn't it? As in, 'Holy Father, keep them in thy name.' John 17:11 Jesus was praying to our Father.

The Pope is the Bishop of Rome, Servant of the Servants of God, visible head of the Roman Catholic Church. "Holy Father" is a name of affection (like "papa" where the name 'Pope' comes from) and respect..... but it does not mean that we believe he is any more holy (as a person) than any other Christian.

According to Paul, God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, etc. 1 Cor. 12:28 I don't see where the office of 'Holy Father' is established.

The Pope sits in the see of the Apostle Peter.... and in his role in the church is a "helper" and "administrator".

Listen, I'd love to sit around all day and educate you about the Catholic Church, but let's get back on topic... you can send me a PM or jump on another thread if you have more "questions".

In Christ,
Scott

 

[Imagican]

Ok dad,

The REASON that I asked this was so I could offer THIS:

Let's suppose that I lived on a deserted island. I have a Bible and begin to read it. I am moved by the Spirit to accept Christ into my heart; do YOU believe that I CANNOT find Salvation for the SIMPLE FACT that there is NO ONE to Baptise me in water?

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Hey guys,
Lets take this infallibility discussion over here: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=30063&start=195
I have set up a little groundwork for the discussion, okay?

This thread is not the place for it.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Ok dad,

The REASON that I asked this was so I could offer THIS:

Let's suppose that I lived on a deserted island. I have a Bible and begin to read it. I am moved by the Spirit to accept Christ into my heart; do YOU believe that I CANNOT find Salvation for the SIMPLE FACT that there is NO ONE to Baptise me in water?

MEC

Gee MEC, you're hurting my feelings. I covered this issue already. Now I think you are not reading my posts. I said:

Still, even though the necessity of water baptism is a normative, there are exceptions to water baptism. It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism. This applies to, say, the Good Thief on the cross. Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church also states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).

 

[dadof10]

Water baptism; a witness that we have confessed our sins.

Where does Scripture give this definition of Baptism?

It follows that baptism would be seen by God as an appeal for a clear conscience (forgiveness) through Christ (His Word). Baptism is a confession of sin.

It follows what? Are you equating Peter's "appeal for a clear conscience" with forgivness? I still don't see where Scripture says baptism is a confession of sin. Maybe we are talking by each other.

When I hear a Protestant say "Baptism is a confession of sin", I THINK they mean that at baptism an already saved person is simply making an outward sign that he is indeed saved. This definition is not Biblical. Is this what you mean? I'll wait to comment.

I don't know what Bible you are using but the RSV doesn't say baptism is a pledge of good conscience toward God. That sounds like you are making a promise to forgive God.

This quote is from the NIV.

I think "...but the pledge of a good conscience toward God" means that the person is pledging to have a good conscience.

And Peter said baptism corresponds to an appeal to God for forgiveness (a clear conscience).

Actually, it says baptism corresponds to the flood, "in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water." (RSV)

Then in verse 21 "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you..."

How does it "save you"?: "not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. (1Peter (RSV) 3)

Could you please elaborate? Thanks.

 

[dadof10]

Ok dad,

The REASON that I asked this was so I could offer THIS:

Let's suppose that I lived on a deserted island. I have a Bible and begin to read it. I am moved by the Spirit to accept Christ into my heart; do YOU believe that I CANNOT find Salvation for the SIMPLE FACT that there is NO ONE to Baptise me in water?

MEC

As CC said, we already went over this. I agree with his (the Catholic Church's) take. As the Catechism says, Baptism is the ordinary means of salvation, but there are other extraordinary means.

To directly answer your question: Yes, you can be saved. Extraordinarily, like the Thief on the cross.

 

[MarkT]

Water baptism; a witness that we have confessed our sins.

Where does Scripture give this definition of Baptism?

It follows that baptism would be seen by God as an appeal for a clear conscience (forgiveness) through Christ (His Word). Baptism is a confession of sin.

It follows what? Are you equating Peter's "appeal for a clear conscience" with forgivness? I still don't see where Scripture says baptism is a confession of sin. Maybe we are talking by each other.

When I hear a Protestant say "Baptism is a confession of sin", I THINK they mean that at baptism an already saved person is simply making an outward sign that he is indeed saved. This definition is not Biblical. Is this what you mean? I'll wait to comment.

Well, it follows from a number of things. John who bore witness to Jesus. Jesus who said, 'If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true; there is another who bears witness to me, and I know that the testimony which he bears to me is true. You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Not that the testimony which I receive is from man; but I say this that you may be saved. He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me.' John 5:31-36

When the church bears witness to a baptism, confession follows does it not? It could follow years later if we were baptized as infants, but it does follow. People came to John confessing their sins. Matt. 3:6 Was John's preaching in vain? No. Jesus said he was a 'burning and shining lamp.' John said, 'I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is mightier than I will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.' Matt. 3:11

I don't know what Bible you are using but the RSV doesn't say baptism is a pledge of good conscience toward God. That sounds like you are making a promise to forgive God.

This quote is from the NIV.

I think "...but the pledge of a good conscience toward God" means that the person is pledging to have a good conscience.

And Peter said baptism corresponds to an appeal to God for forgiveness (a clear conscience).

Actually, it says baptism corresponds to the flood, "in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water." (RSV)

Then in verse 21 "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you..."

How does it "save you"?: "not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. (1Peter (RSV) 3)

Could you please elaborate? Thanks.

God determined to make an end of all flesh. The waters became a flood and all flesh died. All except eight persons.

Likewise, through water, the flesh is put to death and the spirit (person) is saved.

But like Peter says, the water is seen as an appeal to God for a clear conscience.

We can not forgive ourselves of sin. Our conscience wouldn't bear witness. Only God can do it through Jesus Christ. So a clear conscience bears witness to us (ourself) that we have made a good confession from a pure heart. It's our witness to our testimony that God started a good work in us.

 

[Imagican]

Let us remember WHAT John CONFESSED of HIS Baptism. That it was simply a precursor to that which was TO COME. That, while HE Baptized with WATER, He that would come AFTER who was GREATER than HE would Baptise with FIRE and the HOLY Spirit. Note that this is indicative of a BETTER Baptism. One that is NOT only able to 'wash away sin' but able to offer a communion with God IN SPIRIT.

dad,

I thank you for your honest answer to my question. So this leads us back to the question, Is Water Baptism ENOUGH? Enough for WHAT? Salvation. Can one simply be dunked or sprinkled and THIS alone BE enough for one to RECEIVE eternal life?

While there ARE many that 'believe so', i WONDER if simply 'believing in ANYTHING' is ENOUGH. For we have been offered that 'faith without WORKS is DEAD'. This BEING so, then there are MANY that SAY much, but DO little and through their example we can CLEARLY see that their FAITH is based in WORDS rather than TRUTH. For IF their faith were in TRUTH, then their WORKS would BE apparent. And there are MANY that ARE Baptized in water that offer NO works whatsoever and the ONLY way that they indicate their BELIEF is through WORDS alone.

So, is it ENOUGH. or is there MORE to following Christ than simply BEING Baptized in water?

MEC

 

[MarkT]

Let us remember WHAT John CONFESSED of HIS Baptism. That it was simply a precursor to that which was TO COME. That, while HE Baptized with WATER, He that would come AFTER who was GREATER than HE would Baptise with FIRE and the HOLY Spirit. Note that this is indicative of a BETTER Baptism. One that is NOT only able to 'wash away sin' but able to offer a communion with God IN SPIRIT.

I think it's more like John's baptism preps us for the way because John 'prepared the way of the Lord'. So in a sense the baptism of the Holy Spirit is built on John's baptism. Peter said, 'Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' Acts 2:38 So it appears that water was being used for the forgiveness of sin. And that agrees with Peter when he talks about a clear conscience.

I just wanted to say that when Peter talks about the flood and the eight who were saved and he says, 'baptism, which corresponces to this', what he means is that baptism is the same idea. What they (the eight survivors) experienced and what we experience; an event by water and through water. The flesh is put to death, and sin with it, and the person is saved.

Of course it's not by water alone but by the water and the blood (the crucifixtion). And when we speak of the person, we are not talking about the man we can see in the mirror everyday. We are talking about our person, that being in the spirit which is conformed to the image of Christ.

But in the Acts we see some who were baptized in the name of the Lord who hadn't received the Spirit yet and some who had received the Spirit and came to the Apostles to be baptized. And then we see the criminal who made his confession to Jesus on the cross and who believed Jesus was the Christ. He said, "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power." So this man was washed (or baptized) by what Jesus said (fire); "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....I think it's more like John's baptism preps us for the way because John 'prepared the way of the Lord'.....

What 20th century individuals think is of little consequence. What the Universal belief of the early Church was is what guides us to proper understanding of the subject. The key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." The early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new lifeâ€â€a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5). No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.


Justin Martyr:
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).


Irenaeus:
"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).


Tertullian:
"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).


Hippolytus:
"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).


Cyprian of Carthage:
"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).


Cyril of Jerusalem:
"Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).


Athanasius:
"[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened" (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33] [A.D. 360]).


Basil the Great:
"This then is what it means to be ‘born again of water and Spirit’: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there" (The Holy Spirit 15:35 [A.D. 375]).


Augustine:
"It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]).

"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christâ€â€it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’" [Matt. 10:32] (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).