We are not saved by faith alone as Martin Luther inferred..... here is the Biblical evidence

[brujaq]

What little I know or care to know about Martin Luther or any other biblical scholar of any time since Jesus and his apostles is imo Martin Luther and many others who were part of it still suffered a religious hangover of sorts and still were bound somewhat to years of church doctrine that in any way no matter how slight conflicted with the written Word . I'm in no way saying they're not of value though, I'm saying their intent was good but nobody knows those men today outside the Bible Truth . You can only judge anything by the Word because every word was inspired by the Holy Ghost in the end for sure imo ... Only God knows our hearts in it's innermost parts ..

 

[Cygnus]

Jesus taught that we must be good people and do good works to be saved. Upon this we will be judged.

How much good works do we need to do in order to get saved?

Is there a cosmic scale of justice that all of out works and deeds are sorted out...then placed on the proper side of the scale ....and the way in which it tips tells of our afterlife destination?

Do certain good works have more value that others?

Just how does this good works stuff actually work?

Should people work to obtain salvation or do good works because of their salvation?

 

[chessman]

Most of "Saved by grace through faith" Christian teachings originated from Martin Luther.

RS is correct.

No, he’s incorrect . [Which is my opinion that alone carry’s as much evidence as your opinion above does. Namely none.]

However, making a claim that He’s incorrect in the following claim (which is what I was replying to) can be easily supported with Scripture and with Luther’s own claims and biography:

Most of "Saved by grace through faith" Christian teachings originated from Martin Luther.

Saved by Grace through faith in Him originated with Christ, not Luther.

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.John 1:17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 1:17&version=NASB

But you're starting to write pamphlets instead of comments, so I can't read it all.
Aren't you sorry 'bout that????

No.

And please post your support of Jesus saying that we are saved by faith and not works.

I am the door. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. And he will go in and go out, and he will find pasture.
John 10:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 10:9&version=DLNT​

All Jesus did was to talk of works.

Incorrect. He died and rose for our sins.

 

[GodsGrace]

How much good works do we need to do in order to get saved?

Is there a cosmic scale of justice that all of out works and deeds are sorted out...then placed on the proper side of the scale ....and the way in which it tips tells of our afterlife destination?

Do certain good works have more value that others?

Just how does this good works stuff actually work?

Should people work to obtain salvation or do good works because of their salvation?

Cygnus, we've been through this.
Not because I mind stating it again, but because you refuse to accept the answer.
And it's not possible to keep repeating the answer.

So, once more:

1. No amount of good works can get you saved. God doesn't need your works. He needs your heart and the way to get that is through loving His Son, Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8

2. There is no comic scale of justice. God is our justice. He'll figure it out in the end. See last answer.

3. No work has any more value than another to God; however, maybe to us humans it does.
Maybe a missionary that is willing to sacrifice his life is worth more than my doing some small work for a church? But God gives to us what we are able to do and enables us to do that. So we can't compare ourselves to others, we can only do the best we can.

4. Good works functions like this: Everything you do after salvation is for the glory you give to God. God may ask you to do something specific, or maybe not. Maybe He just wants you to keep doing what you've been doing but with more joy and for HIM. When you feel like you have to do something, it's probably God telling you to do it. After all, you're living in the Kingdom now and the Kingdom must be kept by our own hands and feet --- God isn't coming down here again to do it for us. He can only help us, as Jesus said, with the help of the Holy Spirit.
John 16:7

5. As I said, no amount of works can save you. We are saved by faith. We do good works because we are saved.
Ephesians 2:10

 

[th1b.taylor]

Well I do strongly believe that faith alone will not save anyone. No matter how hard and often we quote Paul. I believe its the responsibility of every Christian to deeply examine words of Christ first --- the red lettered words. Unfortunately due to many teachers quoting many verses ( especially of Paul) Jesus' powerful call for obedience gets drowned. Put Christ's before Martin Luther's interpretation or words of apostle Paul is my exhortation to all believers. After all we are Christians and not Paulians

Well, I don't know and can't speak for everyone but I was touched by God when my Faith was placed in Him, without condition, Faith! before that time I did not know the Comforter. Did and do I do the works of my Father? I did and I do. Did they save ?me and do they keep me securely in His embrace? No! Why then do I work the works of the Father, is it to earn more reward? No, I work because I feel for they that do not have and God has blessed me to have for them and I never want to displease Him that sacrificed His own Son to save a nasty Worm such as me. I work out of love.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, he’s incorrect . [Which is my opinion that alone carry’s as much evidence as your opinion above does. Namely none.]

However, making a claim that He’s incorrect in the following claim (which is what I was replying to) can be easily supported with Scripture and with Luther’s own claims and biography:

I don't have opinions.
Martin Luther started the Saved By Faith Through Grace movement.
Ephesians 2:8 is what made him pay attention to the mistakes the CC was making and what made him nail that list to that church in Germany.

If YOU believe this idea existed before him, could you please show where.
The Early Church Fathers believed our works saved us, not our faith.
Although faith was an element in the sense that one had to belong to the church, which was the CC at the time I'm speaking of, or at least, what could be traced back to a church that became the CC.

Ignatius of Antioch (? - 102? A.D.)

Letter to Polycarp, 6

Toil and train together, run and suffer together, rest and rise at the same time, as God�s stewards, assistants and servants.

Didache (before 120 A.D.) (authorship unknown)

Didache 12:3-5

But, if he wishes to settle among you and is a craftsman, let him work and eat. But if he has no trade, provide according to your conscience, so that no Christian shall live among you idle. But if he does not agree to do this, he is trading on the name of Christ; beware of such men.

Epistle of Barnabas (100-120 A.D)

Epistle of Barnabas LIX, 10

Remember the day of Judgment day and night, and seek each day the company of the saints, either laboring by speech, and going out to exhort, and striving to save souls by the word or working with you hands for the ransom for your sins.

Clement of Alexandria (c.125 A.D.)

There's plenty more where that came from.
The idea of being saved ONLY by faith DID NOT exist until Luther.
If you believe so, please show it.

Saved by Grace through faith in Him originated with Christ, not Luther.

I am the door. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. And he will go in and go out, and he will find pasture.
John 10:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 10:9&version=DLNT​

I asked you to show where in Jesus' teachings He ever said that faith alone saves.
You posted John 10:9 I even went to the link. Nothing there, like there ever could be...

So Jesus is saying that HE is the door to salvation.
But it doesn't tell me HOW to get to salvation.
Please post a verse where Jesus says, plainly, that ONLY FAITH in HIM will save us.
You won't find it because it's not what Jesus ever said.​

Incorrect. He died and rose for our sins.

You're stating that I'm incorrect regarding this statement of mine:

All Jesus did was to talk of works.

Could you tell us how many times Jesus spoke of salvation?
Could you tell us how many times Jesus spoke about the Kingdom of God and how we're to be a member of it?

I'll tell you.
About 5 or 6 times for the first.
Over 100 times for the second.
Look it up.
I repeat: All Jesus did was talk about works.

 

[chessman]

The idea of being saved ONLY by faith DID NOT exist until Luther.
If you believe so, please show it.

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom”. And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, you will be with Me today in paradise”.​

Luke 23:42-43 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 23:42-43&version=DLNT

 

[GodsGrace]

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom”. And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, you will be with Me today in paradise”.​

Luke 23:42-43 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 23:42-43&version=DLNT

You forgot the verses that came just before:

Luke 23:40-43
Luke 23:39-43New American Standard Bible (NASB)
39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!”
40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

You know very well that the thieves on the cross should not be used to prove anything...
Is that the best you can do? Yes it is. Because Jesus DID NOT preach that only to believe in Him will get us saved.

verse 41: The other thief said they were suffering JUSTLY because of their DEEDS.
Jesus did not forgive the thief that did not repent.
He saved the one that repented.

In Mathew 4:17 Jesus proclaims the beginning of His ministry with these words:

"Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand."

One has to repent...
THEN Jesus went on to preach for over three years of what one was to become to enter into the Kingdom.

It did NOT stop with repenting.

What do you say of
John 5:28-29 ??

Also, you neglected to post how YOU believe the concept of being saved by faith ALONE comes from since you don't agree that it started with Luther.

 

[Free]

The Early Church Fathers believed our works saved us, not our faith.
Although faith was an element in the sense that one had to belong to the church, which was the CC at the time I'm speaking of, or at least, what could be traced back to a church that became the CC.

Ignatius of Antioch (? - 102? A.D.)

Letter to Polycarp, 6

Toil and train together, run and suffer together, rest and rise at the same time, as God�s stewards, assistants and servants.

Didache (before 120 A.D.) (authorship unknown)

Didache 12:3-5

But, if he wishes to settle among you and is a craftsman, let him work and eat. But if he has no trade, provide according to your conscience, so that no Christian shall live among you idle. But if he does not agree to do this, he is trading on the name of Christ; beware of such men.

Epistle of Barnabas (100-120 A.D)

Epistle of Barnabas LIX, 10

Remember the day of Judgment day and night, and seek each day the company of the saints, either laboring by speech, and going out to exhort, and striving to save souls by the word or working with you hands for the ransom for your sins.

Clement of Alexandria (c.125 A.D.)

There's plenty more where that came from.

Are you suggesting that those quotes above are stating that works save us? Not a single one actually shows anything of the sort. They speak of the need for Christians to work, which the Bible makes clear as well, but none even implies that it is so the person doing the works is saved.

 

[Free]

Hi Free,

This was your original post in no. 8:

"What is it about your own miserable works and doings that you think you could please God more than the sacrifice of His own Son?"
― Martin Luther

This was my reply which you believe is not relevant:

This is addressed to those who try to please God by their works and to achieve salvation by their works.
Luther was very much distressed by this within the CC.
Thus the importance given by him to Ephesians 2:8

This is not addressed to the saved.
Works by the saved are required by God.
Ephesians 2:10

I believe Luther's statement is for those who are trying to gain salvation by works.
Wasn't this his major reason for his complaints against the CC? I believe so.

What he's saying is that our works are worth nothing in the eyes of God but only our belief in His Son, Jesus. IOW, we cannot please God by our works to become saved --- we can only please Him by believing in His Son.
John 3:16

I'm sure the O.P. will also reply.
This is my understanding of Luther's quote.

I still don't see why you responded to me, as though I didn't understand the quote. The OP believes that one must do works to be saved, as do you, and the quote simply says otherwise.

It also seems as though you have ignored or missed the main thrust of the quote: Do your works "please God more than the sacrifice of his own Son?" In other words, do you really believe that your works are more important than Christ's death? Is Jesus's death inadequate or insufficient for our salvation? His death is the ultimate work and if that becomes insufficient for our salvation, then our own works are entirely insufficient.

 

[OzSpen]

I am not your slave.

It has nothing to do with slavery but everything to do with courtesy in acknowledging where you obtained that quote/information.

 

[Eugene]

I believe its the responsibility of every Christian to deeply examine words of Christ first --- the red lettered words. Unfortunately due to many teachers quoting many verses ( especially of Paul) Jesus' powerful call for obedience gets drowned. Put Christ's before Martin Luther's interpretation or words of apostle Paul is my exhortation to all believers. After all we are Christians and not Paulians

Many of the things Jesus spoke of were to unbelievers and their need to be perfect as it were if going that route. Are you not aware that that which Paul taught was not of himself, but Jesus’ words by revelation?
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Not only that, his words were hidden from previous ages and generations.
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: Are you saying this is not the word of God given by an Apostle?

What are the consequences for not listening to God’s words revealed to Paul?
1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (What is that gospel?)
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

I still don't see why you responded to me, as though I didn't understand the quote. The OP believes that one must do works to be saved, as do you, and the quote simply says otherwise.

It also seems as though you have ignored or missed the main thrust of the quote: Do your works "please God more than the sacrifice of his own Son?" In other words, do you really believe that your works are more important than Christ's death? Is Jesus's death inadequate or insufficient for our salvation? His death is the ultimate work and if that becomes insufficient for our salvation, then our own works are entirely insufficient.

I don't believe works save us.
I thought I explained that verse and what it means to me.
I guess we should end it here since we apparently are not understanding each other.
No problem...

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus, we've been through this.
Not because I mind stating it again, but because you refuse to accept the answer.
And it's not possible to keep repeating the answer.

So, once more:

1. No amount of good works can get you saved. God doesn't need your works. He needs your heart and the way to get that is through loving His Son, Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8

2. There is no comic scale of justice. God is our justice. He'll figure it out in the end. See last answer.

3. No work has any more value than another to God; however, maybe to us humans it does.
Maybe a missionary that is willing to sacrifice his life is worth more than my doing some small work for a church? But God gives to us what we are able to do and enables us to do that. So we can't compare ourselves to others, we can only do the best we can.

4. Good works functions like this: Everything you do after salvation is for the glory you give to God. God may ask you to do something specific, or maybe not. Maybe He just wants you to keep doing what you've been doing but with more joy and for HIM. When you feel like you have to do something, it's probably God telling you to do it. After all, you're living in the Kingdom now and the Kingdom must be kept by our own hands and feet --- God isn't coming down here again to do it for us. He can only help us, as Jesus said, with the help of the Holy Spirit.
John 16:7

5. As I said, no amount of works can save you. We are saved by faith. We do good works because we are saved.
Ephesians 2:10

Thank you for the reply.....but your post didn't seem to say what you just posted.

 

[chessman]

You forgot the verses that came just before:

Actually no I didn’t.

You know very well that the thieves on the cross should not be used to prove anything...

Really?

He saved the one that repented.

Prove it. (Without using Luke 23:43)

What do you say of
John 5:28-29 ??

I say It proves that salvation is by Grace through faith in Him. And, as I pointed out previously, it originated with Him, not Luther.

Want to know why???
Ask yourself, what are the good things Jesus was talking about in v28???

Hint, read v 24-26, if not the whole chapter.

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.John 1:17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 1:17&version=NASB

Grace is realized through ________?
A. Jesus Christ
B. our diligence
C. A and B
D. None of the above

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually no I didn’t.


Really?

Prove it. (Without using Luke 23:43)



I say It proves that salvation is by Grace through faith in Him. And, as I pointed out previously, it originated with Him, not Luther.

Want to know why???
Ask yourself, what are the good things Jesus was talking about in v28???

Hint, read v 24-26, if not the whole chapter.

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.John 1:17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 1:17&version=NASB

Grace is realized through ________?
A. Jesus Christ
B. our diligence
C. A and B
D. None of the above

Why are you so sarcastic?
Have you been on this forum too long?
If you'd rather not speak to me, just say so.
If you do, then do so with some respect since that's how I treat you.

Maybe you'd like to take my previous post serioiusly?
If not, just say so.

Here it is again:

You forgot the verses that came just before:

Luke 23:40-43
Luke 23:39-43New American Standard Bible (NASB)
39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!”
40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

You know very well that the thieves on the cross should not be used to prove anything...
Is that the best you can do? Yes it is. Because Jesus DID NOT preach that only to believe in Him will get us saved.

verse 41: The other thief said they were suffering JUSTLY because of their DEEDS.
Jesus did not forgive the thief that did not repent.
He saved the one that repented.

In Mathew 4:17 Jesus proclaims the beginning of His ministry with these words:

"Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand."

One has to repent...
THEN Jesus went on to preach for over three years of what one was to become to enter into the Kingdom.

It did NOT stop with repenting.

What do you say of
John 5:28-29 ??

Also, you neglected to post how YOU believe the concept of being saved by faith ALONE comes from since you don't agree that it started with Luther.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you for the reply.....but your post didn't seem to say what you just posted.

In your first post to me you asked why some do not want to be saved.
As if everyone should want to be saved.
I gave you a reason why maybe a person would NOT want to be saved -- which was that they enjoyed their sin. There are more reasons than that. For instance, not everyone believes God exists, so being saved means nothing to them.

Here, instead, you asked me how this "works thing" functions.
I believe I gave you a complete reply.

I'm not getting your two questions confused.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Faith alone cannot be separated from LOVE
As love is the greatest commandment and far greater than faith.......
1 corinthians 13
If i have faith so as to move mountains
And donot have love I am nothing..........

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith alone cannot be separated from LOVE
As love is the greatest commandment and far greater than faith.......
1 corinthians 13
If i have faith so as to move mountains
And donot have love I am nothing..........

This is very true.
But does only love save?
I don't believe so. Even atheists feel love.
What if an atheist loves everything and everyone but has no faith?
1 Cor is correctly saying that their faith must represent God's love.

 

[jasonc]

This is very true.
But does only love save?
I don't believe so. Even atheists feel love.
What if an atheist loves everything and everyone but has no faith?
1 Cor is correctly saying that their faith must represent God's love.

it isn't true love if there isn't actions of the that love. my wife knows that I love her because I have taken in her family to feed them, house them because they are extension of her. my wife knows I love her because I work to provide for her health care. my wife knows I love her because I tell her.

I know my wife loves me because she worries if eat enough. I know my wife loves me because she will often force me to see a doctor when I refuse to . my wife loves me because if she sees a person who will try to abuse my caring nature , she will stop that.

love isn't a saying but an action. it starts with declaring a love which is outward expression of what is felt and deepens from trials and tribulation.

marriage teaches much. there is always room to love more.