What does it mean to be born again?

[Free]

OK, thanks. For what it's worth; believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior actually makes you a Christian. Not believing whatever "doctrines" that some Christians believe.

People who have placed their trust in Jesus Christ to save them are Christians. Unfortunately, there are a whole lot of mixed up Christians.

Will any Jesus do?

 

[Free]

"Jesus (Yeshua) answered, 'Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Yeshua is explaining only one aspect of being born again, the literal meaning. There is a second aspect, the spiritual meaning, which will be dealt with in another post if you would like my take on that as well. To be "born of water" refers to one's physical birth. The unborn child is encased in "water" for the majority of his life in the womb. Once that encasement breaks and the "water" is released the birth begins. Yeshua was responding to Nicodemus' question about entering his mother's womb a second time. So, in essence, Yeshua was saying, "Except a man be born of the womb and of the Spirit . . ."

Many have concluded that Yeshua was referring to baptism in water and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Based on the context that follows, that is not true. Verse 6 reads,

So what do you think Jesus means by "kingdom of God"?

 

[jocor]

The idea that being "born again" is something spiritual is the only way in which the idea is ever presented in Scripture.

The same is true of the resurrection. It is always something spiritual, but it has two applications; a spiritual resurrection coming out of the waters of baptism and a literal resurrection out of the grave. Coming out of the grave is a spiritual thing with a literal application.

John 3 has nothing to do with the resurrection and the idea of being "born again" never appears in Scripture in reference to the resurrection. You are inserting that idea into the text. We don't become spirit at the resurrection. We have physical bodies that are "spiritualized" in some sense.

We don't become "spirit" coming out of the waters of baptism. We are still flesh and blood, but our mind is now spiritually oriented. One who is "born of the Spirit" IS spirit. Please explain that. And please explain how a flesh and blood person fulfills verse 8 by becoming like the wind.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"OK, thanks. For what it's worth; believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior actually makes you a Christian. Not believing whatever "doctrines" that some Christians believe.

People who have placed their trust in Jesus Christ to save them are Christians. Unfortunately, there are a whole lot of mixed up Christians."

Will any Jesus do?

Huh? I'm pretty sure jocor was referring to Jesus Christ (Messiah) of the Bible.

Are you taking issue with my comment that there are lots of Christians who are mixed up doctrinally?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you have any Scriptural support that either John's baptism or "the outer cleansing of the law" was considered a "first birth"?

In scripture, the man of works is the one born first. While the man of promise--the man born by faith--is the one born second. And he is the one, against all expectation, the one who inherits the Father's estate, even though he was born second (first born's usually inherit the estate). We see this theme throughout the Bible. Paul brings it to light for us in Galatians 4:22-24 NASB.

" Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman (Hagar) and one by the free woman (Sarah). 23But the son by the bondwoman (the one born first) was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar."

When the Jews of Nicodemus' day turned to the Lord in repentance back to the law through John's baptism, they were giving birth to a nation of people "born according to the flesh" (see passage above), people born by the effort of works of the law. As well and good and required as turning back to the righteousness of the law is, Jesus said you must also be born again or from above. That is the spiritual birth, the one required to actually see and enter into the kingdom. Nicodemus, along with his fellow Jews were oblivious to this truth, even though it is taught right in the revered scriptures of the day.

The man born of the waters of repentance back to the law (John's baptism)--flesh.
The man born later, of the Spirit from above (Jesus' baptism)--spiritual.​

Jesus is saying, it's the man born later, the man born of the promise (the man born of the Spirit) that inherits the kingdom. That's why it's the required birth necessary to see and enter into the kingdom. Repentance back to the righteousness of the law--the man born according to the flesh--is not enough.

 

[eddif]

I Corinthians 15:46 KJV
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

First Spirit the Holy breathed into Adam to create a living soul.

Then the Holy Spirir breathed into man that he might be a witness (manifesting the gifts of the spirit).

First Jesus physically breathed on them, then they waited for the power from on high.

eddif

 

[ezra]

There are many many different views on this. This has bothered me in the past and is seriously a heaven and hell issue. I am sure everyone would want to know the truth about what it means to be born again. I don't know about this present evil world but I do NOT want to go to hell. I want the truth. I don't care about my own feelings or opinion. I want to know if I am in error and am headed to hell or not. My sister once said. "Well on judgement day, we will know the truth then." Well I hate to say this but on the day of judgement, It's toooooo late then. It is alllll over. Who in their right mind would want to wait until then to see if such and such doctrine is correct or not? Why not now??? Why can't we seek for the truth now and avoid hell?

do YOU KNOW if you have been born again?

 

[Free]

I said this:
"OK, thanks. For what it's worth; believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior actually makes you a Christian. Not believing whatever "doctrines" that some Christians believe.

People who have placed their trust in Jesus Christ to save them are Christians. Unfortunately, there are a whole lot of mixed up Christians."

Huh? I'm pretty sure jocor was referring to Jesus Christ (Messiah) of the Bible.

Are you taking issue with my comment that there are lots of Christians who are mixed up doctrinally?

My point is that different groups of people read the Bible and yet believe in a different Jesus. This means that simply saying "believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior actually makes you a Christian" will not do because who he is and what he has done is central to that belief. This shows that there are indeed certain doctrines that one must believe in order to be a Christian.

 

[jocor]

So what do you think Jesus means by "kingdom of God"?

It is the Kingdom that Yeshua is King of, which anyone can enter through by the correct door (Yeshua). At this time, it is a spiritual Kingdom we enter through faith (Matthew 23:13; Colossians 1:12-14) , but in the future we will enter the literal Kingdom (Matthew 6:10; 25:34; Acts 14:22) on earth and co-rule it with Yeshua.

 

[jocor]

In scripture, the man of works is the one born first. While the man of promise--the man born by faith--is the one born second. And he is the one, against all expectation, the one who inherits the Father's estate, even though he was born second (first born's usually inherit the estate). We see this theme throughout the Bible. Paul brings it to light for us in Galatians 4:22-24 NASB.

" Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman (Hagar) and one by the free woman (Sarah). 23But the son by the bondwoman (the one born first) was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar."

When the Jews of Nicodemus' day turned to the Lord in repentance back to the law through John's baptism, they were giving birth to a nation of people "born according to the flesh" (see passage above), people born by the effort of works of the law. As well and good and required as turning back to the righteousness of the law is, Jesus said you must also be born again or from above. That is the spiritual birth, the one required to actually see and enter into the kingdom. Nicodemus, along with his fellow Jews were oblivious to this truth, even though it is taught right in the revered scriptures of the day.

The man born of the waters of repentance back to the law (John's baptism)--flesh.
The man born later, of the Spirit from above (Jesus' baptism)--spiritual.​

Jesus is saying, it's the man born later, the man born of the promise (the man born of the Spirit) that inherits the kingdom. That's why it's the required birth necessary to see and enter into the kingdom. Repentance back to the righteousness of the law--the man born according to the flesh--is not enough.

The words, "born according to the flesh", in Galatians 4:23, refer to the literal, natural birth of Ishmael. In allegory, they refer to the covenant at Sinai. So whether we are talking about Ishmael or the Sinai covenant, both were "born" long before John's baptism came on the scene. Therefore, neither one can refer to John's baptism. When John baptized Yeshua, was that Yeshua being "born by the effort of works of the law"? Of course not.

The words, "born of the flesh is flesh;" in John 3:6 refer to the literal, natural birth that yields a man made of flesh.

 

[FreeGrace]

My point is that different groups of people read the Bible and yet believe in a different Jesus. This means that simply saying "believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior actually makes you a Christian" will not do because who he is and what he has done is central to that belief. This shows that there are indeed certain doctrines that one must believe in order to be a Christian.

OK. And that demonstrates my point about believing certain "doctrines". We do have to believe the right doctrines, which is what the Bible says.

 

[Free]

The same is true of the resurrection. It is always something spiritual, but it has two applications; a spiritual resurrection coming out of the waters of baptism and a literal resurrection out of the grave. Coming out of the grave is a spiritual thing with a literal application.

The resurrection out of the grave is always physical.

We don't become "spirit" coming out of the waters of baptism. We are still flesh and blood, but our mind is now spiritually oriented. One who is "born of the Spirit" IS spirit. Please explain that.

We don't become spirit, that is certain. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit" is a reference to spiritual regeneration by the Holy Spirit (see Titus 3:5). This is also what Paul means when he says "spiritual person" (1 Cor. 2:15) and "spiritual people" (1 Cor. 3:1).

And please explain how a flesh and blood person fulfills verse 8 by becoming like the wind.

In verse 8 Jesus is making a comparison between the wind and the Spirit's actions in people. The wind does at it pleases and so does the Spirit.

 

[turnorburn]

After a person gets saved most if not all Christians recommend that the new believer read the gospel of John and i believe there's good reason why they do. Its one of the most powerful passages that explains what it is to be born again..

Two examples are:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[Free]

I do not deny the spiritual birth of a natural man to a spiritual man (a spiritually minded man - Romans 8:6), but that is different from a natural man becoming a spirit man as Yeshua became after his resurrection.

You also posted:

"John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So, are you saying you are "spirit" now? This does not mean you are "spiritual" or "walking in the Spirit", but existing as spirit as opposed to flesh."

Are you saying that Jesus is a spirit, that he became a spirit after his resurrection?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The words, "born according to the flesh", in Galatians 4:23, refer to the literal, natural birth of Ishmael.

In that case both born Ishmael and Isaac were born according to the flesh and the analogy is meaningless.

Obviously, Ishmael's birth represents something different than Isaac's birth. Ishmael represents Abraham's effort to fulfill the promise himself through his own effort. Paul calls that being birthed "according to the flesh" (Galatians 4:23 NASB). This, Paul says, is analogous to keeping the law through the old covenant in order to fulfill the promise of God. When one repents via the water's of baptism, returning to the righteousness of the law, they are birthing a mere man of flesh--"That which is born of the flesh is flesh". It is flesh giving birth to flesh (John 3:6 NASB). But when a person is born by the Spirit he births the spiritual man in the order of Isaac--"that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6 NASB).

In allegory, they refer to the covenant at Sinai. So whether we are talking about Ishmael or the Sinai covenant, both were "born" long before John's baptism came on the scene. Therefore, neither one can refer to John's baptism.

Repentance back to the law predates John the baptist by a long shot. Cleansing by water is right out of the law itself. I'm saying born of the flesh is referring to man's attempt to fulfill the promises in a fleshly return to the righteousness of the law. Which is what repentance without, and before, faith is. When people were coming to John in a repentance back to the righteousness of the law they were giving birth to fleshly men, not spiritual men. That's the water Jesus refers to that gives birth to flesh. While it is the Spirit that gives birth to spirit.

When John baptized Yeshua, was that Yeshua being "born by the effort of works of the law"? Of course not.

It plainly says that was not necessary, but only done to fulfill all righteousness.

The words, "born of the flesh is flesh;" in John 3:6 refer to the literal, natural birth that yields a man made of flesh.

Which is quite unnecessary to tell people. Obviously, you have to exist as a human being to be in the kingdom. It's an especially unnecessary point to make since we have Paul to help us understand what it means for 'flesh to give birth to flesh'. The flesh birth is natural, fleshly man bringing forth from his own fleshly, repentant effort a man of righteousness to inhabit the kingdom of God. Fleshly repentance is not enough. You must be "born again", by the Spirit. Being born according to the flesh (outward, lawful obedience) is not enough. It's necessary, but it's not enough. Nicodemus and the Jews needed desperately to know this truth.

 

[jocor]

The resurrection out of the grave is always physical.

Since the first cause of the resurrection is a Spirit (Father YHWH), through the power of His Holy Spirit, in which we are given spiritual bodies at the command of a spiritual being, I would say it is something spiritual. The natural (physical) body is sewn in the grave and a spiritual body is brought forth out of the grave.

In verse 8 Jesus is making a comparison between the wind and the Spirit's actions in people. The wind does at it pleases and so does the Spirit.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.​

This is a comparison between the action of the wind and the action of people (everyone) born of the Spirit. The deeper comparison is that when people are born of the Spirit, their actions will be like the Spirit's in that they will come and go just like the Holy Spirit can. This can only take place after one's resurrection and receiving of their spiritual body.

 

[jocor]

You also posted:

"John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So, are you saying you are "spirit" now? This does not mean you are "spiritual" or "walking in the Spirit", but existing as spirit as opposed to flesh."

Absolutely not. Verse 6 only takes place after one receives their spiritual (celestial) body at the resurrection.

Are you saying that Jesus is a spirit, that he became a spirit after his resurrection?

I believe he is now "spirit" that can manifest himself in a physical form just as angels can. Angels are "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

 

[jocor]

In that case both born Ishmael and Isaac were born according to the flesh and the analogy is meaningless.

The analogy is between a man born of flesh by natural means/desires and a man born of flesh by a divine promise. That difference makes the analogy meaningful.

Obviously, Ishmael's birth represents something different than Isaac's birth. Ishmael represents Abraham's effort to fulfill the promise himself through his own effort. Paul calls that being birthed "according to the flesh" (Galatians 4:23 NASB). This, Paul says, is analogous to keeping the law through the old covenant in order to fulfill the promise of God. When one repents via the water's of baptism, returning to the righteousness of the law, they are birthing a mere man of flesh--"That which is born of the flesh is flesh". It is flesh giving birth to flesh (John 3:6 NASB). But when a person is born by the Spirit he births the spiritual man in the order of Isaac--"that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6 NASB).

I agree for the most part, except for "When one repents via the water's of baptism, returning to the righteousness of the law, they are birthing a mere man of flesh--"That which is born of the flesh is flesh". It is flesh giving birth to flesh (John 3:6 NASB)." This implies the one getting baptized is giving birth to himself. I believe you are spiritualizing away the literal application of John 3:6.

↑
The words, "born of the flesh is flesh;" in John 3:6 refer to the literal, natural birth that yields a man made of flesh.

Which is quite unnecessary to tell people. Obviously, you have to exist as a human being to be in the kingdom.

It was very necessary. Yeshua wanted to teach Nicodemus about being born from above (vs.3). Nicodemus questioned how that could be by thinking in terms of a second natural birth out of his mother's womb (vs.4). So Yeshua explained to him that another birth had to take place after his natural birth in the flesh from a watery womb.

 

[eddif]

Mississippi folks is slow.

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

I Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Purifying fire is not damnation fire.

We is headed a bunch ah ways at tha same time.

eddif

 

[Free]

Absolutely not. Verse 6 only takes place after one receives their spiritual (celestial) body at the resurrection.

You're disagreeing with a direct quote from you...

I believe he is now "spirit" that can manifest himself in a physical form just as angels can. Angels are "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

Luk 24:36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, "Peace to you!"
Luk 24:37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Luk 24:40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?"
Luk 24:42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish,
Luk 24:43 and he took it and ate before them. (ESV)

This is not a spirit manifesting in physical form, it is a physical body that has been glorified, the same physical body as is evident by it bearing the scars of the crucifixion. Jesus clearly denies that he is a spirit, so why do you say that he is?