What does it mean to be born again?

[eddif]

John 20:27 KJV
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

We are not yet seeing scar tissue (IMHO).

John 20:17 KJV
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Other translations use cling instead of touch (?).

Slow down just a little. LOL

eddif

 

[Free]

Since the first cause of the resurrection is a Spirit (Father YHWH), through the power of His Holy Spirit, in which we are given spiritual bodies at the command of a spiritual being, I would say it is something spiritual. The natural (physical) body is sewn in the grave and a spiritual body is brought forth out of the grave.

We are nowhere taught in Scripture that the resurrection from the grave is something spiritual; it is always physical. If we are to exist as spirits, like the angels, then what is the point of raising the body? There wouldn't be any.

Jesus' tomb was empty precisely because he was physically raised again in a glorified, transformed body. What you are suggesting sounds very close to Gnosticism.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

This is a comparison between the action of the wind and the action of people (everyone) born of the Spirit. The deeper comparison is that when people are born of the Spirit, their actions will be like the Spirit's in that they will come and go just like the Holy Spirit can. This can only take place after one's resurrection and receiving of their spiritual body.

No. You are reading into the text something that isn't there.

The whole point of this passage is to show Nicodemus what must be done to enter the kingdom of God, that is, to have everlasting life. Indeed the entire context of John 3 is about just how to go about getting into the kingdom of God. As a Pharisee Nicodemus believed in doing the works of the Law for his salvation, but Jesus corrects him by saying that he must be "born again." Clearly then, this cannot refer to anything to do with the resurrection, as it is too late then. Being "born of the Spirit" is that renewing and regenerating work of the Holy Spirit wrought inside a person who puts their trust in the Jesus of the Bible.

 

[jocor]

You're disagreeing with a direct quote from you...

I quoted John 3:6. If I believed "born of the Spirit" referred to NOW, then you would be correct. However, I do not believe it applies to NOW. So how could I be "spirit" now?

Luk 24:36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, "Peace to you!"
Luk 24:37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Luk 24:40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?"
Luk 24:42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish,
Luk 24:43 and he took it and ate before them. (ESV)

This is not a spirit manifesting in physical form, it is a physical body that has been glorified, the same physical body as is evident by it bearing the scars of the crucifixion. Jesus clearly denies that he is a spirit, so why do you say that he is?

The disciples were frightened because they thought they were seeing a ghost or a disembodied spirit which is different than a heavenly spirit being. Perhaps they thought they were seeing a demon spirit or something conjured up by a with similar to what the witch of Endor did conjuring up Samuel. They were scared to death of the same kind of apparition in Matthew 14:26. They, no doubt, developed such a fear because the Jews in general feared the same.

How is it that flesh and bone can pass through walls or closed doors (probably locked) as in John 20:19 where the disciples were holed up for fear of the Jews? It seems logical that Yeshua had the ability, as spirit, to go through solid objects, but he also had the ability to manifest himself with a human body as angels did.

 

[Free]

I quoted John 3:6. If I believed "born of the Spirit" referred to NOW, then you would be correct. However, I do not believe it applies to NOW. So how could I be "spirit" now?

Like I said, you're disagreeing with yourself.

The disciples were frightened because they thought they were seeing a ghost or a disembodied spirit which is different than a heavenly spirit being. Perhaps they thought they were seeing a demon spirit or something conjured up by a with similar to what the witch of Endor did conjuring up Samuel. They were scared to death of the same kind of apparition in Matthew 14:26. They, no doubt, developed such a fear because the Jews in general feared the same.

So why would Jesus lie and tell them he is not a spirit, if, as you say, he actually was a spirit?

How is it that flesh and bone can pass through walls or closed doors (probably locked) as in John 20:19 where the disciples were holed up for fear of the Jews? It seems logical that Yeshua had the ability, as spirit, to go through solid objects, but he also had the ability to manifest himself with a human body as angels did.

Jesus just appeared among them. It says nothing about walking through doors or walls. And here you go again saying that he is spirit when he said he wasn't.

 

[Kidron]

So why would Jesus lie and tell them he is not a spirit, if, as you say, he actually was a spirit?

.

He wouldn't lie, as God cant lie.
if Jesus can walk on water with blood in Him, He can certainly walk through a wall with no blood in Him.
He flew off the planet a few times also, and will be flying back here, sooner then a lot of Christian's would today believe.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree for the most part, except for "When one repents via the water's of baptism, returning to the righteousness of the law, they are birthing a mere man of flesh--"That which is born of the flesh is flesh". It is flesh giving birth to flesh (John 3:6 NASB)." This implies the one getting baptized is giving birth to himself.

No, I'm saying repentance via water baptism births an UNSPIRITUAL man. A man of fleshly effort who can not inherit the kingdom. This is the very message Nicodemus and the Jews need to hear. Only by the second birth--birth by the Spirit--is the spiritual man born--the man who does inherit the kingdom.

I Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Purifying fire is not damnation fire.

Seeing your work--people you labored for in the building of God--not pass through the fires of Judgment most certainly is damnation fire.

 

[jocor]

We are nowhere taught in Scripture that the resurrection from the grave is something spiritual; it is always physical. If we are to exist as spirits, like the angels, then what is the point of raising the body? There wouldn't be any.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.​

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Our old physical "earthy" body will not be raised up. A new heavenly body will be brought down.

Jesus' tomb was empty precisely because he was physically raised again in a glorified, transformed body. What you are suggesting sounds very close to Gnosticism.

How do you know his new heavenly body was not made to resemble his earthly body? Will John the Baptist be raised headless? What about people who have been dead long enough to turn to dust?

The whole point of this passage is to show Nicodemus what must be done to enter the kingdom of God, that is, to have everlasting life. Indeed the entire context of John 3 is about just how to go about getting into the kingdom of God.

Correct.

As a Pharisee Nicodemus believed in doing the works of the Law for his salvation, but Jesus corrects him by saying that he must be "born again."

Assumption. Yeshua did not correct him about the Law. The Law is not even mentioned.

Clearly then, this cannot refer to anything to do with the resurrection, as it is too late then. Being "born of the Spirit" is that renewing and regenerating work of the Holy Spirit wrought inside a person who puts their trust in the Jesus of the Bible.

If you are not resurrected unto eternal life, then it is too late. If you are resurrected unto eternal life, then you are right on time to inherit the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34).

Why is Yeshua's resurrection spoken of as a birth? Why is he the first born from the dead? Because he was "born from above".

 

[jocor]

So why would Jesus lie and tell them he is not a spirit, if, as you say, he actually was a spirit?

He didn't lie. He replied based on their fears of him being a ghost of some sort. There are different kinds of spirits just as there are different kinds of "elohim". There are angel elohim, flesh and blood men elohim, and a divine Elohim. The context determines the kind of elohim referred to. So it is with "spirit". There are demonic spirits, angelic spirits, a divine Spirit (the Father), ghostly spirits, etc.

Jesus just appeared among them. It says nothing about walking through doors or walls. And here you go again saying that he is spirit when he said he wasn't.

How do you explain Yeshua's exit from the sepulchre?

Matthew 28:1-6 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus (Yeshua), which was crucified.
He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
​

The stone was not rolled away so Yeshua could get out, but so that the women could get in. This would provide evidence that the body was not stolen, but miraculously exited through the cave walls.

​

 

[jocor]

No, I'm saying repentance via water baptism births an UNSPIRITUAL man.

I know that is what you are saying, and I am saying if that was so, then the person being baptized is giving birth to his own unspiritual self. What was the purpose of John's baptism if he went into the water unspiritual and came out unspiritual; if he went into the water trying to be saved by works and came out trying to be saved by works? I disagree with your interpretation.

 

[JLB]

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Our old physical "earthy" body will not be raised up. A new heavenly body will be brought down.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:42-45

• "It" here in these verse's represents the same body.

It's still our body, that has been transformed or changed from a natural body to a spiritual body, that is immortal.

Jesus had the same body that He died with that had been transformed.

The nail prints in His hands were still there, however His body had transformed.

His body is now spiritual, that is compatible with both heaven and earth.

We will have a body like the angels, who have bodies that are spiritual.

Our body that has died will be raised from the dust, immortal and incorruptible, just like Jesus' body.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 1 Corinthians 15:46-49


53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 1 Corinthians 15:53-4

Paul said it this way in his second letter to the Corinthians -


4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 2 Corinthians 5:4

The caterpillar becoming a butterfly is the best example from nature to describe this process, in which my feeble words are of no real explanation.

The caterpillar doesn't get a new [as in different] body, but rather it get's a new [as in transformed] body.

Similar to the way the New Covenant, is not a new [as in different] Covenant, but a new [as in refreshed; or renewed] Covenant, having taking on qualities that it did not have before.

Our bodies, that have died and been buried, will be raised from the dead, transformed: spiritual and immortal.


JLB

 

[jocor]

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:42-45

• "It" here in these verse's represents the same body.

It's still our body, that has been transformed or changed from a natural body to a spiritual body, that is immortal.

Jesus had the same body that He died with that had been transformed.

The nail prints in His hands were still there, however His body had transformed.

His body is now spiritual, that is compatible with both heaven and earth.

We will have a body like the angels, who have bodies that are spiritual.

Our body that has died will be raised from the dust, immortal and incorruptible, just like Jesus' body.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 1 Corinthians 15:46-49


53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 1 Corinthians 15:53-4

Paul said it this way in his second letter to the Corinthians -


4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 2 Corinthians 5:4

The caterpillar becoming a butterfly is the best example from nature to describe this process, in which my feeble words are of no real explanation.

The caterpillar doesn't get a new [as in different] body, but rather it get's a new [as in transformed] body.

Similar to the way the New Covenant, is not a new [as in different] Covenant, but a new [as in refreshed; or renewed] Covenant, having taking on qualities that it did not have before.

Our bodies, that have died and been buried, will be raised from the dead, transformed: spiritual and immortal.


JLB

So what do you do with 2 Cor 5:1?

​

 

[jocor]

And here you go again saying that he is spirit when he said he wasn't.

1 Corinthians 15:45 reads;

"And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.​

 

[Douglas Summers]

There are many many different views on this. This has bothered me in the past and is seriously a heaven and hell issue.

To be born again is when the Lord calls you and you receive Him. He drew me up to the alter and and I immediately followed after Him in baptism. It was at that time my sins had left me to the point I felt as if though I was going to float up into the air. I felt the presence of His Spirit and a joy indescribable. From that time I was lead by the Spirit as it would show forth Himself to others by His grace working through me (not I, but Christ in me). I was 16 at the time in 1961. I did not fit in with the with the usual school crowds and their habits, it was like I was from another time?

From then to now I have back slid several times. That grieved the Spirit in me and I had no fellowship until I repented. My maturity in fellowship and my calling and election really began after I was married and had children. I could write a book on the miracles and visible experiences, directly by the Holy Spirit. Though I studied Bible through Academia, It was the Spirit of the Lord that enlightened and rescued me from the enemy. This is my walk and trials and teaching from the Lord (personally), but not everyone's experience in rebirth from babe in Christ to maturity will be the same, but everyone's born again and receiving the Holy Spirit should be similar. You must be born again. It is not something you do, you do not join, but you are called, and you either accept, reject, or self reform (do it yourself and take the credit).

 

[JLB]

So what do you do with 2 Cor 5:1?

​

Please acknowledge that you understand what is being taught by Paul in the many verses of scripture, which teach us the body that is dead and buried is the body that is raised from the dead, and is "further clothed" with immortality.

I would think you would certainly agree with that language.

"Further clothed" is very clear to me.

How about you?

Likewise this corruptible must "put on" incorruption.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 1 Corinthians 15:53-4


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What was the purpose of John's baptism if he went into the water unspiritual and came out unspiritual; if he went into the water trying to be saved by works and came out trying to be saved by works?

No, this isn't about trying to be justified by a return to the works of the law. It's about the inability for the required repentance back to the righteousness of the law--signified in water baptism--to produce the spiritual man. That produces a natural, fleshly man. That's the point.

Becoming a new, repentant person by water baptism can only give birth to a quasi-obedient NATURAL man. That's flesh giving birth to flesh (John 3:6 NASB). And that's exactly how Paul described the person born of the way of law in Galatians 4:23 NASB. He said it births a person "according to the flesh". And also, like Jesus, he says the person born of the flesh via the law can not inherit the kingdom. The parallels are unmistakable. Jesus is talking about repentance to the law signified in John's water baptism. That's not enough. By itself it only births a flesh man, not the spiritual man who inherits the kingdom. John's water baptism only led the way to the baptism of the Spirit by Jesus.

 

[JLB]

So what do you do with 2 Cor 5:1?

I study what it says, to understand the original language, and to reconcile it to what Paul is saying in the light and context of the following verses, as well as the other letters about this subject, and what Jesus said.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Corinthians 5:1

[Destroy] - Dissolve - Strong's G2647 - katalyō

to dissolve, disunite

1. 
   
   
   • (what has been joined together), to destroy, demolish
   • metaph. to overthrow i.e. render vain, deprive of success, bring to naught
     1. to subvert, overthrow
        1. of institutions, forms of government, laws, etc., to deprive of force, annul, abrogate, discard
   • of travellers, to halt on a journey, to put up, lodge (the figurative expression originating in the circumstance that, to put up for the night, the straps and packs of the beasts of burden are unbound and taken off; or, more correctly from the fact that the traveller's garments, tied up when he is on the journey, are unloosed at it end)

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8

• We become unbound from our body at death, and are present with the Lord in heaven, and await there with Him until He returns with all His saints on the last Day, when our bodies are raised from the earth and are transformed, and we are clothed with our new changed and transformed bodies that have been swallowed up by life: eternal life.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

• Then those who are alive and remain are caught up together with the resurrected ones, as their bodies are changed while still on them, and we will all have our new bodies that are eternal and from God, while in the air, in the heavens and all together with the Lord as He descends from heaven to earth: to Jerusalem.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:42-45

• "It" here in these verse's represents the same body.

• It's still our body, that has been transformed or changed from a natural body to a spiritual body, that is immortal.

• Jesus had the same body that He died with that had been transformed.

• The nail prints in His hands were still there, however His body had transformed.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29


JLB

 

[chessman]

Absolutely not. Verse 6 only takes place after one receives their spiritual (celestial) body at the resurrection.

John 3:6, 8 (LEB) What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. ... The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” ​

The verb tenses in these verses are ALL present tense and/or perfect participle (used of completed action), not future. For what you say about them to be true (born of the spirit occurs at a future resurrection) Jesus would have used a future tense of these verbs. He didn't.

 

[jocor]

JLB, this "born again" thread is becoming a resurrection thread. Why don't you start a new thread with your same resurrection posts?

 

[jocor]

John 3:6, 8 (LEB) What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. ... The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” ​

The verb tenses in these verses are ALL present tense and/or perfect participle (used of completed action), not future. For what you say about them to be true (born of the spirit occurs at a future resurrection) Jesus would have used a future tense of these verbs. He didn't.

Yeshua is simply stating facts. Therefore, the main verbs are in the indicative mood which can refer to action occurring in past, present, or future time.

 

[chessman]

JLB, this "born again" thread is becoming a resurrection thread. Why don't you start a new thread with your same resurrection posts?

Yep, two different subjects, two different events occuring at different times.