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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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What does it mean to be born again?
- Thread starter Robert Lindstrom
- Start date
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
- Dec 26, 2015
- 30,018
- 11,949
Sorry jocor. You're presenting a third choice.
Do you believe the Kingdom of Heaven is here right now?
J
jocor
Guest
Spiritually speaking yes, but it will literally come to begin the millennium. Yeshua is the King. The subjects of his kingdom are believers. A time will come when the nations/kingdoms of this world will become his as well and he will rule them with a rod of iron along with his saints. We cannot enter the literal kingdom until we enter the spiritual kingdom. Yeshua is the door to that kingdom.
Jethro Bodine
Member
- Oct 31, 2011
- 23,344
- 5,948
Not just water baptism, but repentance, which water baptism represents. Water baptism is how you repented at this time in Israel (i.e. John's baptism for repentance and cleansing from sin). Jesus is saying that's not enough to get into the kingdom of heaven. It births the outward man--a man born of the external cleansing of law. But the birth from above, by the Spirit, births a spiritual man and enables him to see and enter into the kingdom of heaven. Both are necessary to enter into the kingdom of heaven. The Jews knew only of the first birth--the outer cleansing of law keeping. But John made it clear that he was only baptizing in water preparing the way for the One who would baptize in the Spirit.
J
jocor
Guest
Do you have any Scriptural support that either John's baptism or "the outer cleansing of the law" was considered a "first birth"?
just as the new birth is unto eternal life, so eternal life is irrevocable, being a gift of God.
Rom 6:23 describes eternal life as a gift of God.
Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable.
Paul did not add any exclusions to his statement in 11:29.
btw, do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, or Yeshua?
J
jocor
Guest
Yes, eternal life is an irrevocable gift. Believers have it by faith now, but literally at our resurrection.
Yes, I believe Yeshua of Nazareth is the Messiah.
II Timothy 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
John 10:4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Knowing God,s voice. Tough at times. But they (the false) sound so convincing.
But these last few posts are about not waiting till the resurrection for the new birth ( do the new birth now). What is tricky is the full understanding, and I see through a glass darkly. Not blind but not yet changed totally in the flesh. At the resurrection / last trump:
I Corinthians 15:52 KJV
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
At the resurrection the flesh is completely changed. Till that time the new man runs around in a body of flesh ( not a stony hearted flesh, but with a new heart of flesh). If you ask me for a 1000 word essay about this, I will probably not be able to deliver. The new birth has been available since roughly the day of Pentecost, but the case it exists in is not yet complete. Romans 7:25 shows this not yet quite complete condition.
This thread has some good information. Since this thread was shut down for a time, it has some less than perfect information.
The less than perfect redneck
eddif
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
John 10:4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Knowing God,s voice. Tough at times. But they (the false) sound so convincing.
But these last few posts are about not waiting till the resurrection for the new birth ( do the new birth now). What is tricky is the full understanding, and I see through a glass darkly. Not blind but not yet changed totally in the flesh. At the resurrection / last trump:
I Corinthians 15:52 KJV
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
At the resurrection the flesh is completely changed. Till that time the new man runs around in a body of flesh ( not a stony hearted flesh, but with a new heart of flesh). If you ask me for a 1000 word essay about this, I will probably not be able to deliver. The new birth has been available since roughly the day of Pentecost, but the case it exists in is not yet complete. Romans 7:25 shows this not yet quite complete condition.
This thread has some good information. Since this thread was shut down for a time, it has some less than perfect information.
The less than perfect redneck
eddif
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
- Dec 26, 2015
- 30,018
- 11,949
Okay.
I believe that John 3 is also spiritual and is speaking to how we are to be born of the spirit, right now, to enter into the spiritual kingdom of heaven here on earth.
Jesus said that you have to believe it to see it. John 3:3
At the resurrection, we won't have to believe anything to see it -
It will be real!
Wondering
J
jocor
Guest
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
So, are you saying you are "spirit" now? This does not mean you are "spiritual" or "walking in the Spirit", but existing as spirit as opposed to flesh.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
- Dec 26, 2015
- 30,018
- 11,949
Jethro.
You know who believes that the water represents baptism.
I even argued this once with a Brother, not a brother.
I am of the firm opinion that Jesus is speaking to natural child birth.
Nicodemus even says that you cannot go back into the womb again. John 3:4b
Jesus says: Flesh is flesh, the first birth John 3:6a
And spirit is spirit, the second birth John 3:6b
I do understand what you're saying about water and repentance and cleansing. I just don't believe this is what Jesus was talking about. I believe He was saying that we must be a spiritual being, not just a material being.
Wondering
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
- Dec 26, 2015
- 30,018
- 11,949
Jesus is saying you must be born of the spirit.
He came to show us how to live NOW. How to be of the spirit NOW. How to enter the Kingdom that is HERE NOW.
I'm not a spirit now. We CAN say that we are spiritual beings.
We're made up of body, soul, and spirit. It's called spirit. It doesn't mean we become a spirit (like after death), it's just referring to the spirit part of our make-up, our being.
We have a body.
We have a soul.
We have a spirit.
The spirit part is that which refers to our being like God.
Genesis 1:27
God made man.
Genesis 2:7
God breathed life into the man. The breath of life. Also, the breath of spirit. Man walked with God, conversed with God, had preternatural gifts which were then lost at the fall.
Our spirit cries out to God.
I understand that Jesus meant spirit in this way.
Wondering
J
jocor
Guest
Incorrect. I believe a true believer is spiritually born again when he rises up out of the waters of baptism and becomes a new creature in Messiah Yeshua. I do not believe that is what John 3 is referring to. I believe John 3 refers to our literally being born again or born from above via our resurrection unto eternal life. That is when we become "spirit" and when John 3:8 will literally be possible for a person to do. We will be like the wind, just as Yeshua was. See post #89 if you missed it.
The first lie that corrupted mankind was that god is a liar who would sacrifice everyone else to maintain his position of power over all others. To be reborn is to be given God's Spirit anew, and thereby know that God would sacrifice Himself to save all others. I believe that the water is the Word preached, and the Spirit is the Word believed upon.
Thank you.
Then why does the word "no" appear next to the word "Christian" in your name square?
J
jocor
Guest
Here is my understanding of being spiritually born again.
1 Peter 1:23 reads,
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of Elohim, which liveth and abideth forever."
When the incorruptible seed of the Word of Yahweh is planted in the fertile heart of an unbeliever (Matthew 13:18-23) via the preaching of the good news (1 Peter 1:25) it begins a transformation process that eventually leads to repentance of sin and acceptance of Yeshua as one's Savior. It is culminated in baptism, total immersion under water, which symbolizes the death, burial and resurrection of Yeshua. When we submit to baptism we agree to die to self and live for Yahweh. We determine in our hearts to put to death our "old man" or old nature and walk in newness of life through the Holy Spirit that will be given us.
When we are submerged under water it symbolizes the burial of our old self. Finally, we emerge out of the water symbolizing our resurrection from the dead, for before Yeshua came we were dead in our sins (Ephesians 2:1,5; Colossians 2:13). It is at that point (emerging from the water of baptism) that we are spiritually born again. We are spiritually born of water (Romans 6:3-11).
James 1:18 speaks of the Word in relation to the process of being born again. It reads,
"Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures."
The word "begat" means "to be pregnant." When the word of truth is preached to an unbeliever with a fertile heart, the seed is planted, a spiritual conception takes place, and a new birth is imminent. But this conception and birth cannot occur if the word of truth is not preached. If we are taught error it will not lead to a new birth. Millions of people embrace false religions and false teachings throughout the world. There is no life in these religions because they are not founded on the preaching of Yeshua as Messiah. He is "the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6).
John 1:12,13 also speaks of the new birth;
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Those that receive Yeshua as their Savior become sons of God. They are spoken of as being "born." This birth, however, is not the result of a man and woman uniting, but is the direct result of Yahweh's intervention and power.
The Apostle John speaks of believers as being "born of God" seven times throughout his first epistle. For brevity, I will list them all with a brief comment or two.
The most important aspect of this new birth is a change in one's thinking and in one's very nature. Ephesians 2:2-3 read;
"Wherein in times past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
Before a person is born again in a spiritual sense he walks in a way that is contrary to his Creator's will because his very nature is corrupt. As a result of Adam's sin, "death passed upon all men for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12). Sin caused man to have a fallen, corrupt nature which Paul calls "the old man."
In Ephesians 4:22-24, he admonishes the new believer in Messiah to
". . . put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after Elohim is created in righteousness and true holiness."
Without this taking place a person is still corrupt, still partaking of the old nature rather than partaking of the divine nature as 2 Peter 1:4 teaches;
"Whereby are given unto us exceeding and great promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
Paul says this conflict or war between the old man or old nature and the new man or the new nature will continue to take place until the new believer yields his mind and will to the guidance of the Holy Spirit rather than to the flesh.
For brevity's sake I will not go into detail concerning this battle and how to win it, but will recommend a thorough reading of the following verses; Romans 7:14-8:17; Galatians 5:16-25; Ephesians 4:17-5:33; Colossians 3:5-17; 1 Peter 4:1-6.
Theses Scriptures are not ambiguous or difficult to understand. They are quite clear that a new birth must take place while we are yet alive in our flesh and blood bodies. This is what I call being "spiritually born again." They are also quite clear that another new birth occurs upon the resurrection of someone whose faith is in Yeshua the Messiah for salvation. This is what I call being "literally born again." Without first being born in a spiritual sense a literal new birth cannot occur. And without being born again in a literal sense at one's resurrection we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. It would, therefore, behoove us all to examine ourselves carefully to determine whether or not we are born again in a spiritual sense. Has our old man or old nature died? Are we now walking in the Spirit as partakers of the divine nature? Have we experienced a change in behavior from doing the works of the flesh as described in the previous Scriptures to bearing the fruit of the Spirit as described in Galatians 5?
There are many professing believers who claim to be born again, but are yet in their sins because they have sought salvation the wrong way. They believe they are saved because they obey a set of rules; because they keep the Sabbath; because they have been baptized a certain way; because they are members of a certain denomination, etc.
There is only one way to become born again or saved and that is through accepting Yeshua the Messiah as our personal Savior. He is the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father (Yahweh) except through Yeshua and his righteousness.
1 Peter 1:23 reads,
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of Elohim, which liveth and abideth forever."
When the incorruptible seed of the Word of Yahweh is planted in the fertile heart of an unbeliever (Matthew 13:18-23) via the preaching of the good news (1 Peter 1:25) it begins a transformation process that eventually leads to repentance of sin and acceptance of Yeshua as one's Savior. It is culminated in baptism, total immersion under water, which symbolizes the death, burial and resurrection of Yeshua. When we submit to baptism we agree to die to self and live for Yahweh. We determine in our hearts to put to death our "old man" or old nature and walk in newness of life through the Holy Spirit that will be given us.
When we are submerged under water it symbolizes the burial of our old self. Finally, we emerge out of the water symbolizing our resurrection from the dead, for before Yeshua came we were dead in our sins (Ephesians 2:1,5; Colossians 2:13). It is at that point (emerging from the water of baptism) that we are spiritually born again. We are spiritually born of water (Romans 6:3-11).
James 1:18 speaks of the Word in relation to the process of being born again. It reads,
"Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures."
The word "begat" means "to be pregnant." When the word of truth is preached to an unbeliever with a fertile heart, the seed is planted, a spiritual conception takes place, and a new birth is imminent. But this conception and birth cannot occur if the word of truth is not preached. If we are taught error it will not lead to a new birth. Millions of people embrace false religions and false teachings throughout the world. There is no life in these religions because they are not founded on the preaching of Yeshua as Messiah. He is "the way, the truth and the life" (John 14:6).
John 1:12,13 also speaks of the new birth;
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Those that receive Yeshua as their Savior become sons of God. They are spoken of as being "born." This birth, however, is not the result of a man and woman uniting, but is the direct result of Yahweh's intervention and power.
The Apostle John speaks of believers as being "born of God" seven times throughout his first epistle. For brevity, I will list them all with a brief comment or two.
- 1 Jn 2:29 - Those that do righteousness are born again.
- 1 Jn 3:9 - Those that are born of God, born again, do not practice sin.
- 1 Jn 4:7 - Those that are born of God truly love the brethren.
- 1 Jn 5:1 - Those that are born of God believe Yeshua is the Messiah.
- 1 Jn 5:4 - Those that are born of God overcome the world through their faith.
- 1 Jn 5:18 - Those that are born God of do not practice sin and are untouched by the wicked one.
The most important aspect of this new birth is a change in one's thinking and in one's very nature. Ephesians 2:2-3 read;
"Wherein in times past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
Before a person is born again in a spiritual sense he walks in a way that is contrary to his Creator's will because his very nature is corrupt. As a result of Adam's sin, "death passed upon all men for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12). Sin caused man to have a fallen, corrupt nature which Paul calls "the old man."
In Ephesians 4:22-24, he admonishes the new believer in Messiah to
". . . put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after Elohim is created in righteousness and true holiness."
Without this taking place a person is still corrupt, still partaking of the old nature rather than partaking of the divine nature as 2 Peter 1:4 teaches;
"Whereby are given unto us exceeding and great promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
Paul says this conflict or war between the old man or old nature and the new man or the new nature will continue to take place until the new believer yields his mind and will to the guidance of the Holy Spirit rather than to the flesh.
For brevity's sake I will not go into detail concerning this battle and how to win it, but will recommend a thorough reading of the following verses; Romans 7:14-8:17; Galatians 5:16-25; Ephesians 4:17-5:33; Colossians 3:5-17; 1 Peter 4:1-6.
Theses Scriptures are not ambiguous or difficult to understand. They are quite clear that a new birth must take place while we are yet alive in our flesh and blood bodies. This is what I call being "spiritually born again." They are also quite clear that another new birth occurs upon the resurrection of someone whose faith is in Yeshua the Messiah for salvation. This is what I call being "literally born again." Without first being born in a spiritual sense a literal new birth cannot occur. And without being born again in a literal sense at one's resurrection we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. It would, therefore, behoove us all to examine ourselves carefully to determine whether or not we are born again in a spiritual sense. Has our old man or old nature died? Are we now walking in the Spirit as partakers of the divine nature? Have we experienced a change in behavior from doing the works of the flesh as described in the previous Scriptures to bearing the fruit of the Spirit as described in Galatians 5?
There are many professing believers who claim to be born again, but are yet in their sins because they have sought salvation the wrong way. They believe they are saved because they obey a set of rules; because they keep the Sabbath; because they have been baptized a certain way; because they are members of a certain denomination, etc.
There is only one way to become born again or saved and that is through accepting Yeshua the Messiah as our personal Savior. He is the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father (Yahweh) except through Yeshua and his righteousness.
J
jocor
Guest
See why here
OK, thanks. For what it's worth; believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior actually makes you a Christian. Not believing whatever "doctrines" that some Christians believe.
People who have placed their trust in Jesus Christ to save them are Christians. Unfortunately, there are a whole lot of mixed up Christians.
- Apr 2, 2003
- 22,631
- 5,999
The idea that being "born again" is something spiritual is the only way in which the idea is ever presented in Scripture.
John 3 has nothing to do with the resurrection and the idea of being "born again" never appears in Scripture in reference to the resurrection. You are inserting that idea into the text. We don't become spirit at the resurrection. We have physical bodies that are "spiritualized" in some sense.