What if Adam had not sinned ?

[savedbygrace57]

I never understood the story of Adam, Eve and the apple.

In our everyday lives most believe that it is wrong to punish babies because they are innocent, and don't know any better. For example babies don't know their crying in the middle of the night annoys its parents.

Now before they ate the apple they didn't know the difference between good and evil. They didn't even have the knowledge of good and evil. Hence the name of the apple. The knowledge of good and evil. So why would God kill them, for eating the apple, when they couldn't have known that eating the apple was wrong because, they didn't know what right and wrong were until after eating the apple?

They ate of an Tree that God told them not to eat from.

 

[seekandlisten]

I never understood the story of Adam, Eve and the apple.

In our everyday lives most believe that it is wrong to punish babies because they are innocent, and don't know any better. For example babies don't know their crying in the middle of the night annoys its parents.

Now before they ate the apple they didn't know the difference between good and evil. They didn't even have the knowledge of good and evil. Hence the name of the apple. The knowledge of good and evil. So why would God kill them, for eating the apple, when they couldn't have known that eating the apple was wrong because, they didn't know what right and wrong were until after eating the apple?

Maybe the knowledge of good and evil is a metaphor for being able to think for yourself. Look at where that has got us. We are all capable of immense good and evil, it comes down to which part of the spectrum do we dwell on and project?

Just a random thought.

 

[mondar]

I never understood the story of Adam, Eve and the apple.

In our everyday lives most believe that it is wrong to punish babies because they are innocent, and don't know any better. For example babies don't know their crying in the middle of the night annoys its parents.

Now before they ate the apple they didn't know the difference between good and evil. They didn't even have the knowledge of good and evil. Hence the name of the apple. The knowledge of good and evil. So why would God kill them, for eating the apple, when they couldn't have known that eating the apple was wrong because, they didn't know what right and wrong were until after eating the apple?

interesting question. I dont see the connection between Adams defiance of the command of God and the baby crying at night. A babies crying is not sin.

 

[seekandlisten]

I never understood the story of Adam, Eve and the apple.

In our everyday lives most believe that it is wrong to punish babies because they are innocent, and don't know any better. For example babies don't know their crying in the middle of the night annoys its parents.

Now before they ate the apple they didn't know the difference between good and evil. They didn't even have the knowledge of good and evil. Hence the name of the apple. The knowledge of good and evil. So why would God kill them, for eating the apple, when they couldn't have known that eating the apple was wrong because, they didn't know what right and wrong were until after eating the apple?

interesting question. I dont see the connection between Adams defiance of the command of God and the baby crying at night. A babies crying is not sin.

I understood what happyjoy was saying as one big question of why did all this happen if they didn't know wrong from right before they ate of the tree. The baby was just a comparison analogy if I understood correctly.

To further my previous post on one random thought on this scenerio, Adam and Eve did not have to look any further than directly to God for guidance. God, not being a slave driver, gave them the choice to look to him for answers or to 'eat of the tree' and have the knowledge that 'equips' all mankind to all kinds of 'evil' as well as 'good'. This is essentially the same as giving up God as a king and requesting an earthly king, a continuing separation from 'God' in an attempt to govern ourselves. The point that they would 'surely die' is a result of our present state. We have been steady in our progress towards destruction of our planet and all life on it.

We are, supposedly, unable to simply 'do good' unless we come up with religions, doctrines, laws, reasons people do evil, etc., etc. that we must believe in order for good to happen when all we simply have to do is simply act for ourselves and progress towards the betterment of humankind. We have the 'knowledge' of evil so we are 'paranoid' of other people, knowing that everything we are capable of doing to them they are capable of doing to us and so starts the divisions and segregations.

Everyone knows what one must do in order to survive as a human race yet that is not important, we must have more. Hence the need to for governments and authorities, because we are unable to 'trust' our fellow neighbors knowing that the same selfish desires and greed that propel us is present in others so we write it off as nothing is going to happen anyways so why bother with this present world so lets forget about this one and move on to a 'hope' of the next one.

I tend to ramble on ideas but this is the basic idea I see the Adam and Eve story presenting, although I expanded it beyond that story I know and it 'careens' all over the place, I have issues sometime projecting thoughts on a subject. I'll leave this post with these two quotes that I think are quite fitting.

We frail humans are at one time capable of the greatest good and, at the same time, capable of the greatest evil. Change will only come about when each of us takes up the daily struggle ourselves to be more forgiving, compassionate, loving, and above all joyful in the knowledge that, by some miracle of grace, we can change as those around us can change too. - Mairead Maguire

We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies. - Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[mondar]

I understood what happyjoy was saying as one big question of why did all this happen if they didn't know wrong from right before they ate of the tree. The baby was just a comparison analogy if I understood correctly.

I understood the question also, but chose not to address the whole thing. Probably because I am afraid of doing a lot of speculation in the area before the fall. If I was going to speculate. It seems to me that Adam and Eve had some sort of intellectual understanding of good and evil. If I were present in the garden, and asked Eve what do you think the difference is between good and evil, she probably would have given a good answer before the fall. In the conversation between Eve and the serpent, the serpent questions the goodness of God, and Eve seems to grasp the concept.

Adam and Eve did not know good and evil from an experiential point of view.

To further my previous post .......

We frail humans are at one time capable of the greatest good and, at the same time, capable of the greatest evil. Change will only come about when each of us takes up the daily struggle ourselves to be more forgiving, compassionate, loving, and above all joyful in the knowledge that, by some miracle of grace, we can change as those around us can change too. - Mairead Maguire

We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies. - Martin Luther King Jr.

Are human beings capable of the "greatest good?" Can we save ourselves. What is the difference between this, and Pelagianism?

 

[seekandlisten]

To further my previous post .......

We frail humans are at one time capable of the greatest good and, at the same time, capable of the greatest evil. Change will only come about when each of us takes up the daily struggle ourselves to be more forgiving, compassionate, loving, and above all joyful in the knowledge that, by some miracle of grace, we can change as those around us can change too. - Mairead Maguire

We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies. - Martin Luther King Jr.

Are human beings capable of the "greatest good?" Can we save ourselves. What is the difference between this, and Pelagianism?

I had to go do a quick search of Pelagianism and from my quick read I can see why you brought it up. My viewpoint varies highly from Christianity so I'll simply say this. What fell with Adam was restored with Jesus. The steps in between vary from different belief systems which all point to 'something' or some 'way' that brings humankind back. My point of view, and the point of putting that quote there, is that while many people point to outside 'reasons' as to their 'state'(whether fallen or not), that it all comes down to us. We project outside reasons to make excuses. When we accept that it is us who is the problem then we can assess how to fix the problem.

While I'm sure you will disagree with the following as to where it comes from it doesn't change what it is saying.

Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty." (Gospel of Thomas)


cheers

 

[happyjoy]

I never understood the story of Adam, Eve and the apple.

In our everyday lives most believe that it is wrong to punish babies because they are innocent, and don't know any better. For example babies don't know their crying in the middle of the night annoys its parents.

Now before they ate the apple they didn't know the difference between good and evil. They didn't even have the knowledge of good and evil. Hence the name of the apple. The knowledge of good and evil. So why would God kill them, for eating the apple, when they couldn't have known that eating the apple was wrong because, they didn't know what right and wrong were until after eating the apple?

interesting question. I dont see the connection between Adams defiance of the command of God and the baby crying at night. A babies crying is not sin.

You don't see the connection?

Ok. You say Eve and Adam were being Defiant. Defiance, is a sin, but they could not have been trying to be defiant. They hadn't eaten of the apple. They didn't know what defiant was. That is the point I am trying to make. Adam and Eve could not commit sin because they didn't know what sin was. They had not eaten the apple. It is a catch 22 or what ever you call it.

Someone explain this to me.

 

[savedbygrace57]

A corruptible Life -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Life that the elect had in Adam in the beginning was a corruptible life, capable of and indeed became corruption. ; But that life God had prepared for His chosen people for eternity was incorruptible per 1 pet 1:

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

This life had to come through the Last Adam, and they [ elect] had to be born of His incorruptible seed instead of Adam's corruptible seed 1 pet 1:

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Adam's seed was corruptible as was evidenced in the garden gen 3, Christ seed was incorruptible as evidenced in the Christ temptation lk 4.

The elect had been chosen in Christ [ The Last Adam] before they had been created in the First Adam, because the Last Adam, though not manifested first [ 1 jn 3:5,8] He did exist first, and He existed as the head of His body, the church col 1:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


The elect by the wisdom of God, had incorruptible life given them first in Christ their preexisting head, before they were given corruptible life in their earthly head Adam.

 

[archangel_300]

You don't see the connection?

Ok. You say Eve and Adam were being Defiant. Defiance, is a sin, but they could not have been trying to be defiant. They hadn't eaten of the apple. They didn't know what defiant was. That is the point I am trying to make. Adam and Eve could not commit sin because they didn't know what sin was. They had not eaten the apple. It is a catch 22 or what ever you call it.

Someone explain this to me.

Adam and Eve clearly knew what being defiant was.
They were given a clear choice that if they decided to eat the fruit there would be repercussions for doing it. This was made very clear to them both by God, do this and death will be the end result.
Even though they didn't know what death was they knew that this choice meant trouble.

Genesis 3:2 "And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’â€

Eve had clear understanding of what they were PERMITTED to do and what they were NOT PERMITTED to do. Not knowing the repercussions of your actions does not mean that one can claim innocence when there is a clear set of laid out instructions.

 

[jasoncran]

ignorance of the law is no excuse, adam and eve were warned. that should have been enough for them.

 

[happyjoy]

ignorance of the law is no excuse, adam and eve were warned. that should have been enough for them.

A two year old is innocent and ignorant as well. So I tell a two year old not to eat the cookie or I will burn her with a cigarette. She doesn't know what a cigarette is. Also, she hasn't had a cookie before either, but she sure knows they smell good. She does great for two weeks, but then eats a cookie, and she thought it was yummy. Would I be a good parent if I burned her or if I didn't burn her? She must learn actions have consequences. innocence and ignorance are no excuse.

 

[savedbygrace57]

happy:

A two year old is innocent and ignorant as well

In case you are not aware, Adam was not a Two yeard old, but a grown man.

 

[happyjoy]

happy:

A two year old is innocent and ignorant as well

In case you are not aware, Adam was not a Two yeard old, but a grown man.

Adam was innocent and ignorant. He might as well have been a two year old. A two year old understands no don't do that. If they disobey they are being defiant. In fact Adam was more innocent that a two year old as he hadn't eaten of the apple. A two year old now has original sin.

The point is. If you take these stories as literal truth, you are missing the point of the story. You are missing the forest for the trees. God is not a malevolent monster who created us to try and live out instructions that are not with in our ability, and then torture us for eternity because we failed to do what is impossible for us.

 

[stovebolts]

I never understood the story of Adam, Eve and the apple.

In our everyday lives most believe that it is wrong to punish babies because they are innocent, and don't know any better. For example babies don't know their crying in the middle of the night annoys its parents.

Now before they ate the apple they didn't know the difference between good and evil. They didn't even have the knowledge of good and evil. Hence the name of the apple. The knowledge of good and evil. So why would God kill them, for eating the apple, when they couldn't have known that eating the apple was wrong because, they didn't know what right and wrong were until after eating the apple?

You may perhaps enjoy this little study on Genesis I did some time ago.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=39535&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=45

 

[archangel_300]

happy:

A two year old is innocent and ignorant as well

In case you are not aware, Adam was not a Two yeard old, but a grown man.

Adam was innocent and ignorant. He might as well have been a two year old. A two year old understands no don't do that. If they disobey they are being defiant. In fact Adam was more innocent that a two year old as he hadn't eaten of the apple. A two year old now has original sin.

The point is. If you take these stories as literal truth, you are missing the point of the story. You are missing the forest for the trees. God is not a malevolent monster who created us to try and live out instructions that are not with in our ability, and then torture us for eternity because we failed to do what is impossible for us.

So you are saying that a two year old is innocent because they don't know the consequences of their actions yet?

If I'm given a set of instructions to build an airplane and I don't follow the instructions perfectly and the airplane doesn't work properly, who is to blame here? I may not know in what ways the airplane will fail but I know that if I don't follow the instructions there will be trouble. I cannot claim "well it's not my fault, I'm innocent" just because I did not follow the instructions exactly as was given to me.

Yes God is not a malevolent monster, but God gave us free will.
We have the free will to choose to do according to his instructions and free will to choose to be defiant.
It is not impossible to obey God and God will allow us to be defiant but as he stated, there are consequences. The thing that strikes me as amazing is that you don't see the wind and waves disobey God but mankind disobeys God all the time. We are made differently from the rest of His creation and we are accountable to God for our actions. God is perfectly just and righteous it's not because he's a monster that he is sending people to hell for eternity.

 

[jasoncran]

ignorance of the law is no excuse, adam and eve were warned. that should have been enough for them.

A two year old is innocent and ignorant as well. So I tell a two year old not to eat the cookie or I will burn her with a cigarette. She doesn't know what a cigarette is. Also, she hasn't had a cookie before either, but she sure knows they smell good. She does great for two weeks, but then eats a cookie, and she thought it was yummy. Would I be a good parent if I burned her or if I didn't burn her? She must learn actions have consequences. innocence and ignorance are no excuse.

so when you break the law and tell the cop i was unaware of that ordinance and he fines you are you gonna refuse that fine and when the judge says pay up. are you gonna to say to that court, no. i think not.

btw God did tell them in plain terms eat that fruit you will die. again you want him to say that sin and dont to that and prevent you from that. he has warned us not to and lets us decide whether we want to listen. we we dont he doesnt say you cant be forgiven, just that you must repent and learn.


with adam and eve they have to be punished so that us can come to him, we must come to him.

btw take notice in that he also told them that the earth would be difficult to cultivate for thier sakes. why? to remind then that they could seek him and he would provide and also that he would redeem them.

 

[savedbygrace57]

happy:

Adam was innocent and ignorant.

Says who ? And you did not answer my question, did you realize that Adam was not a two year old kid ?

 

[happyjoy]

happy:

Adam was innocent and ignorant.

Says who ? And you did not answer my question, did you realize that Adam was not a two year old kid ?

Adam was innocent and ignorant as he had never committed sin and didn't even know wright from wrong as he didn't have knowledge of good and evil.

Also, if I wasn't clear before yes I realize Adam was not a two year old. A two year old is as close an example of someone who is innocent and ignorant but can still understand instructions.

 

[jasoncran]

he was told not to do something. he choose to disobey. sbg57 has a rather differing viewpoint on this and i let mondar explain that reasoning.

the lord had to allow adam to sin in order that we come because we want to be with him. he allows us no to want him. the choice to do evil or good must be.

 

[savedbygrace57]

happy:

Adam was innocent and ignorant

Before He sinned He was innocent, but He was never ignorant, neither was He a two year old, He was a grown man and knew what His Creator told Him not to do.

and didn't even know wright from wrong

What scripture says that Adam did not know right from wrong ?