What is the clearest Bible passage that demonstrates loss of salvation to you and why?

[chessman]

Here, I'll start:

Galatians 5:2-4 (LEB) Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing! And again I testify to every man who becomes circumcised, that he is under obligation to keep the whole law. You are estranged from Christ, you who are attempting to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace.
​

If we are saved by Grace (and we are, see Eph 2:8) and estranged from Christ then obviously "fallen from grace'" means fallen from salvation, right???

 

[JLB]

Here, I'll start:

Galatians 5:2-4 (LEB) Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing! And again I testify to every man who becomes circumcised, that he is under obligation to keep the whole law. You are estranged from Christ, you who are attempting to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace.
​

If we are saved by Grace (and we are, see Eph 2:8) and estranged from Christ then obviously "fallen from grace'" means fallen from salvation, right???

Right.

You have fallen from the grace by which you were saved.

Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
You have been severed from Christ, you who [are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Galatians 5:2-4

Severed from Christ say's it all.

Jesus teaches the same thing:


Removed from Christ = Removed from Eternal life.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:2,6



JLB

 

[chessman]

Right.

You have fallen from the grace by which you were saved.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:2,6

JLB

Which passage is more clear to you, Gal 5:2-4 or John 15:2a, skipping over 2b-5, then 6?

Jesus teaches the same thing:

It would be more helpful toward your case if Jesus had actually said the same thing as Paul did.

You have fallen from the grace by which you were saved.

What passage is this?

Removed from Christ = Removed from Eternal life.

What passage is this?

John 15:2b-3 (LEB) ..., and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it in order that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.​

Are the fruit bearing branches that are pruned (removed from Christ) also de-saved on your view and why?

Why do you think Jesus says to the branches "You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you"?

 

[JLB]

Which passage is more clear to you, Gal 5:2-4 or John 15:2a, skipping over 2b-5, then 6?

You have fallen from the grace by which you were saved.

Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
You have been severed from Christ, you who [are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Galatians 5:2-4

• Do you believe a person can become severed from Christ, and still have the same benefit of eternal life, they had before they were severed from Christ?

• Do you believe when a person has fallen from grace, they sill have the same benefit of the grace that saved them, as they did before they fell from grace?

What passage is this?

John 15:2b-3 (LEB) ..., and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it in order that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
Are the fruit bearing branches that are pruned (removed from Christ) also de-saved on your view and why?

Why do you think Jesus says to the branches "You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you"?

The verse's are not the verse's I referred to.

These verse's show the work of God in a person's life that does indeed bear fruit.

I can see why you avoided to quote the scriptures I used.


Here is the scriptures I quoted, to show that a person can indeed be removed from, or severed from Christ, after they come to be joined or connected to Him.


Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2

Jesus compares the outcome of the two branches:

One branch bears fruit.
The other branch does not bear fruit.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Does getting thrown into the fire and burned, sound like these continue to be saved, after they are no longer in Him?



JLB

 

[chessman]

You have fallen from the grace by which you were saved.

Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
You have been severed from Christ, you who [are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Galatians 5:2-4

• Do you believe a person can become severed from Christ, and still have the same benefit of eternal life, they had before they were severed from Christ?

• Do you believe when a person has fallen from grace, they sill have the same benefit of the grace that saved them, as they did before they fell from grace?

The verse's are not the verse's I referred to.

These verse's show the work of God in a person's life that does indeed bear fruit.

I can see why you avoided to quote the scriptures I used.


Here is the scriptures I quoted, to show that a person can indeed be removed from, or severed from Christ, after they come to be joined or connected to Him.


Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2

Jesus compares the outcome of the two branches:

One branch bears fruit.
The other branch does not bear fruit.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Does getting thrown into the fire and burned, sound like these continue to be saved, after they are no longer in Him?



JLB

In my reply post I asked you 4 questions. The first one was to re-ask the very question of this thread ("What is the clearest Bible passage that demonstrates loss of salvation to you and why?") since you didn't really answer either. Plus, you only answered one of my follow-up questions (which by the way I agree with your answer to that particular question. It seems reasonable to me.) yet you ask me four additional questions in your reply. It's impossible to conduct a coherent discussion/debate with respect to your "clearest Bible passage" without first knowing which passage you think is the clearest in the Bible that demonstrates loss of salvation to you.

The whole point of this particular thread is to study/debate different people's clearest passage (and it's immediate context) with respect to whether it teaches loss of salvation or not. If it's Gal 5:2-4 for you, then fine. Let's discuss it. But if it's John 15:2-6, then fine, let's discuss it. Or if it's another passage that mentions loss of salvation, or loss of Eternal Life, then let's discuss it (if there are any). But all this mix/match copy/paste of a phrase from within one verse, from within one context, and pasting that phrase into another verse/context, is not productive. Anybody can copy a phrase from one verse and insert it into another verse/passage and come up with any pseudo-doctrine they'd like to create. That method is rift with error. I'd prefer in this thread to focus on which passage it is that you think clearly teaches loss of salvation on it's own merit. (if there is one).

So is it Gal 5:2-4 or John 15:2 or John 15:6 or some other passage?

One branch bears fruit.
The other branch does not bear fruit.

That's correct. Yet they are both removed from the vine in this allegorical statement of Jesus'. Therefore, it's beyond me to see how you think being removed from the vine, here in this particular verse, means de-salvation.

But if that's your clearest evidence for loss of salvation, fine.

 

[JLB]

In my reply post I asked you 4 questions.

Yes, you did not address the content of my reply to you or the words and meanings, so I will ask you a question in order to find out what you believe the meaning and content of the scripture is, as opposed to what you want to believe.

What passage is this?

John 15:2b-3 (LEB) ..., and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it in order that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
Are the fruit bearing branches that are pruned (removed from Christ) also de-saved on your view and why?

Why do you think Jesus says to the branches "You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you"?

here is my response again:

Here is the scriptures I quoted, to show that a person can indeed be removed from, or severed from Christ, after they come to be joined or connected to Him.


Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2

Jesus compares the outcome of the two branches:

One branch bears fruit.
The other branch does not bear fruit.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Does getting thrown into the fire and burned, sound like these continue to be saved, after they are no longer in Him?



JLB

 

[turnorburn]

Here, I'll start:

Galatians 5:2-4 (LEB) Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing! And again I testify to every man who becomes circumcised, that he is under obligation to keep the whole law. You are estranged from Christ, you who are attempting to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace.
​

If we are saved by Grace (and we are, see Eph 2:8) and estranged from Christ then obviously "fallen from grace'" means fallen from salvation, right???

What's your point?

 

[chessman]

What's your point?

To have other members answer the question:
What is the clearest Bible passage that demonstrates loss of salvation to you and why?

 

[chessman]

One branch bears fruit.
The other branch does not bear fruit.

Correct. And they both get removed from the vine, die, wither and are burned. One for bearing no fruit and one so that other branches can grow and bear even more fruit.

Does getting thrown into the fire and burned, sound like these continue to be saved, after they are no longer in Him?

It sounds to me like exactly what Jesus said it was. A analogy of what a vinedresser does to maximize fruit production as compared to what God is doing to maximize His church. Since when I also read in the passage what Jesus said it meant not to remain in Him, I don't speculate what it means:

John 15:5 (LEB) “I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me and I in him—this one bears much fruit, for apart from me you are not able to do anything. ​

I understand this passage the same way his friends did. When you, as a friend of Jesus, are either finished with your appointed duties, you are no longer able to maximize His fruit production and you are cutoff, die and collected for burning. Dust to dust. Luckily though, ALL His friends have asked The Father for Eternal Life. And Jesus says all remain. Oh the joy!

John 15:11, 16 (LEB) I have spoken these things to you in order that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be made complete. ... You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and your fruit should remain, in order that whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you.​

 

[turnorburn]

To have other members answer the question:
What is the clearest Bible passage that demonstrates loss of salvation to you and why?

No need to scream..

 

[chessman]

No need to scream..

I just copied it from the title and that's how it formatted it in the post for some reason. I wasn't screaming it.

 

[JLB]

Correct. And they both get removed from the vine, die, wither and are burned.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away.

Takes away means to remove.

1. to raise up, elevate, lift up
   
   1. to raise from the ground, take up: stones
   2. to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
   3. to draw up: a fish
      
2. to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
   
3. to bear away what has been raised, carry off
   
   1. to move from its place
   2. to take off or away what is attached to anything
   3. to remove
   4. to carry off, carry away with one
   5. to appropriate what is taken
   6. to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force
   7. to take and apply to any use
   8. to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence
   9. cause to cease

The branches in Him that produce no fruit, are removed from Him.

• every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Every branch in Him that does bear fruit, are pruned, which means: cut the useless shoots away from the branch so it will be more fruitful in the next growing season.

The branches in Him that do not produce, He takes away, in which they are removed from the Vine and are cast into the fire and burned.

• Does not bear fruit = the branch itself is removed from the Vine and burned.

• Bears fruit = the branch is trimmed of shoots but remains in the Vine itself in which it produces more.

JLB

 

[chessman]

Takes away means to remove.

1. 
   
   
   • to raise up, elevate, lift up ...

I know. That's my point. None of the definitions you list mean to de-save or to send to Hell. You insert that idea into this Text. Yet, it's evidently the clearest passage you know of that teaches loss of salvation. Telling us you have no clear passage that truly does teach loss of salvation.

airó
Phonetic Spelling: (ah'-ee-ro)
Short Definition: I raise, lift up
Definition: I raise, lift up, take away, remove

kathairó
Phonetic Spelling: (kath-ah'-ee-ro)
Short Definition: I cleanse, purify, prune
Definition: I cleanse, purify, prune.

Neither word means to de-save or to send to Hell as you suppose.

Nor does to burn:

kaió
Phonetic Spelling: (kah'-yo)
Short Definition: I ignite, light, burn
Definition: I ignite, light, burn, lit. and met; I consume with fire.

Your clearest 'de-salvation' passage is literally a cleansing, lifting up passage of all Jesus' branches/friends.

 

[JLB]

I know. That's my point. None of the definitions you list mean to de-save or to send to Hell. You insert that idea into this Text. Yet, it's evidently the clearest passage you know of that teaches loss of salvation. Telling us you have no clear passage that truly does teach loss of salvation.

airó
Phonetic Spelling: (ah'-ee-ro)
Short Definition: I raise, lift up
Definition: I raise, lift up, take away, remove

kathairó
Phonetic Spelling: (kath-ah'-ee-ro)
Short Definition: I cleanse, purify, prune
Definition: I cleanse, purify, prune.

Neither word means to de-save or to send to Hell as you suppose.

Nor does to burn:

kaió
Phonetic Spelling: (kah'-yo)
Short Definition: I ignite, light, burn
Definition: I ignite, light, burn, lit. and met; I consume with fire.

Your clearest 'de-salvation' passage is literally a cleansing, lifting up passage of all Jesus' branches/friends.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

I don't see "cleansing" mentioned in the Greek definition for burn.

Just another OSAS "re-definition" of God's word.


Those who are in Him and then later removed, or cast out or disconnected from Him, no longer have the eternal life that they once had when they were indeed joined to Him, just as the illustration Jesus gave of the branches that were disconnected from the Vine that nourished the branches with life.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

Those who are no longer joined to Him, are no longer "one spirit" with Him.


JLB

 

[chessman]

I don't see "cleansing" mentioned in the Greek definition for burn.

Just another OSAS "re-definition" of God's word.

I didn't say there was in that word. More misrepresentation from you. What I did point out, cause it's true, is that there's cleansing mentioned in the passage.

There's no mention in the Greek definition for burn of Hell. You add that idea to this passage. And subtract the cleansing aspect of it.

Thinking that everywhere that you see the word burn, that it means burn in Hell and/or the Lake of Fire is what anti-OSAS does.

John 5:35 (LEB) That one was the lamp which was burning and shining, and you wanted to rejoice for an hour in his light.
​

Same word is used here and in numerous other passages where it's not used for Hell's fire.

 

[JLB]

I didn't say there was in that word. More misrepresentation from you. What I did point out, cause it's true, is that there's cleansing mentioned in the passage.

There's no mention in the Greek definition for burn of Hell. You add that idea to this passage. And subtract the cleansing aspect of it.

Thinking that everywhere that you see the word burn, that it means burn in Hell and/or the Lake of Fire is what anti-OSAS does.

​

Same word is used here and in numerous other passages where it's not used for Hell's fire.

You just can't redefine what thrown into the fire and burned means, as it certainly doesn't mean cleaning.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Those who are in Him and then later removed, or cast out or disconnected from Him, no longer have the eternal life that they once had when they were indeed joined to Him, just as the illustration Jesus gave of the branches that were disconnected from the Vine that nourished the branches with life.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.1 Corinthians 6:17

Those who are no longer joined to Him, are no longer "one spirit" with Him.

John 5:35 (LEB) That one was the lamp which was burning and shining, and you wanted to rejoice for an hour in his light.

31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.


Another desperate attempt at twisting God's word.

John the Baptist was not thrown into the fire and burned.


Jesus used an Idiom [shining lamp] to described Johns righteous lifestyle and testimony.


I guess there is just no end to how far you are willing to twist God's word, in a desperate attempt to prove OSAS is not a false doctrine.

I should have realized this when you said "the faith" in 1 Timothy 4:1, was not "the faith" we have in Christ, but was referring to faith in food or faith in marriage... ie faith in God's creation.


JLB

 

[chessman]

I should have realized this when you said "the faith" in 1 Timothy 4:1, was not "the faith" we have in Christ, but was referring to faith in food or faith in marriage... ie faith in God's creation.

I didn't say the faith mentioned by Paul in 1 Tim 4:1 was faith in food.
Your continuing to say that I did is bearing false witness.

Bearing false witness is a sin.

You just can't redefine what thrown into the fire and burned means,

Then stop doing it. I posted what it means. There's zero reason to think Jesus meant this fire to be Hell's fire. Else He would have said so. Not that Him saying so would matter to you. He said the good soil was the one that understood the word about the kingdom in the parable of the sower, yet you say examples #2 and #3 understood it.

I guess there is just no end to how far you are willing to twist God's word,

as it certainly doesn't mean cleaning.

I didn't say it did.

 

[Jim Parker]

Here, I'll start:

Galatians 5:2-4 (LEB) Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing! And again I testify to every man who becomes circumcised, that he is under obligation to keep the whole law. You are estranged from Christ, you who are attempting to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace.
​

If we are saved by Grace (and we are, see Eph 2:8) and estranged from Christ then obviously "fallen from grace'" means fallen from salvation, right???

That is exactly what it means. Paul is talking about a person who has chosen to reject the gift and to pursue righteousness by works of the law.

There are many passages which, taken as a whole, clearly and irrefutable teach that one can loose their salvation.
Those who "have eyes to see" and understand will do so.
Those who are devoted to the OSAS invention of modern, western, Protestantism will not.

Once more:

(1) JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

(2) RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.

22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

(3)1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

(4) 1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

(5) COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

(6) HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

(7) HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting himto public disgrace.

(8) PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

PHP 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

(9)2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

(10) 2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

(11) EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

 

[chessman]

There are many passages which, taken as a whole, clearly and irrefutable teach that one can loose their salvation.

Which one is the clearest in your opinion and why?

 

[Jim Parker]

Which one is the clearest in your opinion and why?

I don't do "proof-texting." IMHO, the scripture is to be taken as a piece, not a collection of self-contained, one liners.

iakov the fool