What is the clearest Bible passage that demonstrates loss of salvation to you and why?

[JLB]

Umm, easy. John in a sense, is still bearing fruit today, though dead. The Gospel according to John is just one example. His account probably helps lead more to Christ (the vine) than any other Gospel account. Though ultimately it's the Holy Spirit that seals the deal. Those that John helped lead to the vine (Jesus Christ) are also bearing fruit because, in part, of what John taught them. But more direct to the passage is that it's the vine's fruit itself that ultimately is maximized in it's fruit bearing potential by pruning the older branches away. Including those that have produced their fruit already. The fruit belong to the vine and the vinedresser, not to the branches. Apart from the vine, the branches can do nothing, including bear any fruit.

In a grape vine, it is only the new branches (one maybe two years old) that bear the buds that flowers and turn to fruit (grapes). That's why you cut them back each year. If you never cut back branches that bear fruit, you end up with a vine that is MUCH less productive.

If you want to understand "pruning" from an agricultural stand-point, ask someone that knows what they're talking about. You obviously don't. Here:

"The key to pruning grapes is understanding their fruiting habit. Grapes produce the most fruit on shoots growing off of one-year-old canes."​

Source:
http://garden.org/ediblelandscaping/?page=201112-how-to

If you "prune" all the vine's shoots, you'd never produce any fruit.

If you want to understand Jesus' allegorical meaning, read (and explain) verse 3 rather than cut it out of the passage.


It says anyone (meaning any branch) in the very verse you insert Hell into, as if every verse in the Bible where fire appears is Hell's fire. Again, if Jesus would have meant the fire of Hell, He would have said so. Your insertion of Hell into the verse has been exposed for exactly what it is!

John 15:6 (LEB) If anyone does not remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and dries up, and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
​

That's correct. The branches were "cleaned" by The Father as the Greek states.

The word for pruned AND for removed BOTH not only sound alike they have like meaning in the Greek. And they are tied to the next verse's sound and meaning. Literally interpreted as clean.

Your 'interpretation' inserts the word Hell into a passage with absolutely no exegetical reasoning whatsoever.

I didn't say "anyone was gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned, to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why misrepresent what I said???

Read what John The Baptist says more clearly:

Luke 3:16 (LEB) John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but the one who is more powerful than I am is coming, of whom I am not worthy to untie the strap of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.​

Baptism with fire is in addition to baptism with the Holy Spirit! See John 15:6

Your going to have to do better than just state your opinion.


You still have yet to show any scriptures that somehow disprove that "the fire" is not a reference to hell.

Here are some other examples that refer specifically to the fire.

Here Jesus specifically links THE FIRE with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, intothe fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown intothe fire. Matthew 3:10

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, in His teaching from John 15, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.


I suppose "a fire" could be just about anything a person could dream up.

The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18



JLB

 

[chessman]

I suppose "a fire" could be just about anything a person could dream up.

Yes people that try to claim the fire (see John 15:6) that a vindresser (The Father) uses to physically clean up died and withered branches (Jesus's disciples) that have already been spiritually cleaned (see John 15:3) is another fire (such as The Lake of Fire) that God uses to administer the 2nd Death to non-disciples of Jesus have supposed something into the Text that's clearly not there. It's just not very convincing when you do that.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yes people that try to claim the fire (see John 15:6) that a vindresser (The Father) uses to physically clean up died and withered branches (Jesus's disciples) that have already been spiritually cleaned (see John 15:3) is another fire (such as The Lake of Fire) that God uses to administer the 2nd Death to non-disciples of Jesus have supposed something into the Text that's clearly not there. It's just not very convincing when you do that.

Where do you hear stuff like this?
It's like something from a Ray Bradbury story.
Please, give me a reference with this previous statement so I can look it up.

 

[chessman]

If you think that cast into the fire and burned means the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire, then please show us the scriptures where someone was thrown into the fire and burned, as a way of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I never said, nor do I think, Jesus was telling His disciples that being cut from the vine, withering and burned in the vinedresser's fire was/is "the Baptism of the Holy Spirit". And I've told you so, having to correct your misrepresentation of something I did say, now multiple times.

John the Baptist spoke of two coming Baptisms:
1. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and
2. The Baptism of fire.

Read about it in Matt 3:11 or Luke 3:16 and in John 15:3,6 and in 1 Cor 3:15-16.

please explain why you are attempting to associate the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire, with the what Jesus said of those who are removed from Him... thrown into the fire and burned.

With the corrections made above, see Matt 3:11 or Luke 3:16 and John 15:3,6 and 1 Cor 3:15-16 for the Biblical explanation.

Using my words though, I believe all humans are firstly physically alive but spiritually dead, so to speak. I.e. We are all sinners having Adam as our father. We that become God's fruit (sons of God) are firstly;
1) regenerated spiritually to believe in Christ Jesus (born from above, born again, saved, given the gift of Eternal Life, Baptized in the Holy Spirit, made spiritually alive, however you want to say it, never to die spiritually again. But die physically we eventually all do! But after our spiritual re-birth we then;
2) live out the remainder of our old physical life "in Christ" spiritually which consists of varying degrees of sin and varying degrees of fruit bearing (neither of which is lived out perfectly precisely because of our lack of physical cleansing (just yet) though we've been spirit baptized. We then
3) die physically (still spiritually alive though). Our physical bodies are cut off from life, withered and return to dust. "We" are cleansed if you will from the fleshly. We are then Baptized with the fire John prophecied. Lifted up as smoke, spiritually, to be with The Lord absent our bodies as we await our ressurection bodies. Yet never dying. Remember, we have Eternal Life.

Yes cleansed from sin and unrighteousness so that they can be "in Christ".

Can you explain just how "cleansed from sin" one must become "so that they can be "in Christ"?

Last I checked, it is lost sinners that Christ came to save (Luke 19:10), not those already cleansed. And sinners we remain (even you) until which time we shed these old bodies. Do you think cutting off body parts literally cleanses us enough to be qualified to be "in Christ"?

Acts 15:1 (LEB) And some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom prescribed by Moses, you cannot be saved.” ​

 

[chessman]

Where do you hear stuff like this?

I heard JLB say it here:

The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

John 15 doesn't even mention "the everlasting fire of hell". He 'makes' John 15:6 refer to the everlasting fire, like Ray Radbury makes up his stories.

 

[JLB]

Yes people that try to claim the fire (see John 15:6) that a vindresser (The Father) uses to physically clean up died and withered branches (Jesus's disciples) that have already been spiritually cleaned (see John 15:3) is another fire (such as The Lake of Fire) that God uses to administer the 2nd Death to non-disciples of Jesus have supposed something into the Text that's clearly not there. It's just not very convincing when you do that.

There is no such reference to the fire being used to "clean" the branches, which is why you don't actually post the scripture.


Go ahead and point out the verse here that says "God the Father uses fire to physically clean up dried and withered branches"

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

The branches that do not abide in Him are gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned... see Judas Iscariot.

The branches that do abide in Him and pruned so that they will continue to produce fruit abundantly. These are not thrown into the fire and burned.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I never said, nor do I think, Jesus was telling His disciples that being cut from the vine, withering and burned in the vinedresser's fire was/is "the Baptism of the Holy Spirit". And I've told you so, having to correct your misrepresentation of something I did say, now multiple times.

Then why bring up the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire when we are discussing "the fire" in John 15:6

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 16:6

I listed several verse's that associate "the fire" with hell.

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into
the fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into
the fire. Matthew 3:10

• Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18

“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, in His teaching from John 15, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.


If you don't believe "the fire" in John 15:6 is a reference to hell, then post some scriptures that teach us that people are gathered up and throw into the fire, means some other fire than hell.

If you can't then it's safe to say, "the fire" in John 15:6 is a reference to hell, since Jesus referred to the fire in several places in His teachings that did in fact refer to hell fire.


JLB

 

[JLB]

With the corrections made above, see Matt 3:11 or Luke 3:16 and John 15:3,6 and 1 Cor 3:15-16 for the Biblical explanation.

Using my words though, I believe all humans are firstly physically alive but spiritually dead, so to speak. I.e. We are all sinners having Adam as our father. We that become God's fruit (sons of God) are firstly;
1) regenerated spiritually to believe in Christ Jesus (born from above, born again, saved, given the gift of Eternal Life, Baptized in the Holy Spirit, made spiritually alive, however you want to say it, never to die spiritually again. But die physically we eventually all do! But after our spiritual re-birth we then;
2) live out the remainder of our old physical life "in Christ" spiritually which consists of varying degrees of sin and varying degrees of fruit bearing (neither of which is lived out perfectly precisely because of our lack of physical cleansing (just yet) though we've been spirit baptized. We then
3) die physically (still spiritually alive though). Our physical bodies are cut off from life, withered and return to dust. "We" are cleansed if you will from the fleshly. We are then Baptized with the fire John prophecied. Lifted up as smoke, spiritually, to be with The Lord absent our bodies as we await our ressurection bodies. Yet never dying. Remember, we have Eternal Life.

Here is a reference to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire.

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:1-4

Notice these didn't die when they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire.


JLB

 

[chessman]

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:1-4

Did you happen to notice that they were "filled with the Holy Spirit" on the day of Pentecost, yet the tongues as of fire only appeared and sat on them, not in them??? Or did you ignore that???

 

[JLB]

Did you happen to notice that they were "filled with the Holy Spirit" on the day of Pentecost, yet the tongues as of fire only appeared to them??? Or did you ignore that???

Yes the 120 that were there, in the house when the Spirit came like a mighty rushing wind, witnessed the event, as the tongues of fire appeared to them.

"Them" is a reference to the 120 that were there.

What's your point?

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:1-4

These did not die, but were endued with power, when they were Baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire.



JLB

 

[chessman]

There is no such reference to the fire being used to "clean" the branches, which is why you don't actually post the scripture.

Yes there is and I've already posted it. So have you. You just don't realize it because you're not thinking of the passage as it was spoken to the disciples in the Greek. Jesus is tying the sounds (and their meanings) of the words used for removing the non-fruit bearing branch (singular) and the fruit bearing branch (singular) to the branches (plural) that are clean, yet burned in the fire. It's called a pun. And it's a demonstration of the perfection that is God's Word.

Notice:

John 15:2 Every branch [singular] that does not bear fruit in me, he removes it, and every branch [singular] that bears fruit, he prunes it in order that it may bear more fruit.​

John 15:6 (LEB) If anyone [any branch] does not remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and dries up, and they gather them [plural] and throw them [plural] into the fire, and they [plural] are burned.​

1+1=2

These did not die, but were endued with power, when they were Baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Once again, contradiction from you relative to a Scripture. They were not baptized with fire here. They were only baptized (filled) with the Holy Spirit.

see Judas Iscariot.

John 13:10-11(LEB) Jesus said to him, “The one who has bathed only needs to wash his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 (For he knew the one who would betray him; because of this he said, “Not all of you are clean.”)​

Judas wasn't clean. Judas had already been dismissed during the John 15:1-6 conversation with the disciples.

 

[Jim Parker]

3) die physically (still spiritually alive though). Our physical bodies are cut off from life, withered and return to dust. "We" are cleansed if you will from the fleshly. We are then Baptized with the fire John prophecied. Lifted up as smoke, spiritually, to be with The Lord absent our bodies as we await our ressurection bodies. Yet never dying. Remember, we have Eternal Life.

The scriptures refute that opinion.
Jhn 15:1-3 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away (GR: αἴρω [airo]; to move from its place, to take off or away what is attached to anything,to remove) and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, (Gr: καθαίρω [kathairo]: to cleanse, of filth impurity, etc, to prune trees and vines from useless shoots, metaphorically: from guilt, to expiate) that it may bear more fruit.
You are already clean (Gr: καθαρός [katharos]) because of the word which I have spoken to you.

The word translated "taken away" (αἴρω [airo])means that those branches (people) are separated from the vine. (Christ)
Separation from Christ results in BOTH the first and second deaths (or, "physical" and "spiritual" death, if you like). It does not result ONLY in physical death. Physical death is the consequence of sin. (Rom 6:23)
New physical life (at the resurrection) and eternal life are the gifts of God.

The same Greek word is used for "prunes" and "clean"; the verb form (kathairo) for prune and the adjective form (katharos) for clean.

Jesus said that they were already cleansed by His word, not by being cast into any fire. So the notion of equating being baptized in fire with being separated from Christ and cast into the fire and "Lifted up as smoke, spiritually, to be with The Lord absent our bodies as we await our resurrection bodies" is a fabricated absurdity probably arising as a necessity to create the illusion of support for the OSAS heresy.


iakov the fool

 

[chessman]

The scriptures refute that opinion.

How so. There's nothing in the verses you posted that refute my opinion.

Separation from Christ results in BOTH the first and second deaths (or, "physical" and "spiritual" death, if you like).

Huh??? You mean those ISIS people I see on TV chopping off the heads of Christians are not separated from Christ? Where do you get this idea that separation from Christ results in BOTH physical and spiritual death?

 

[Edward]

JLB and Jim are right, chessman. I read these scriptures and get the same thing out of it that they do. I'm sorry Brother but you need to pray about this passage and ask for enlightenment on it.

Wow that really does blow osas out of the water, JLB. Fear and trembling...

 

[chessman]

JLB and Jim are right, chessman. I read these scriptures and get the same thing out of it that they do. I'm sorry Brother but you need to pray about this passage and ask for enlightenment on it.

I have prayed and asked for enlightenment on it. If you can demonstrate something contradictory about my view of this passage and Scripture itself, I'll learn from it and change my view.

But just because Jesus refer's to Hell's fire in other passages will not do here. Nor will three guys opinion on the internet.

Again and again, if Jesus had meant the fire of Hell, He'd of said so. Do you think any of the 11 disciples He was speaking to will experience Hell's fire?

 

[Edward]

I have prayed and asked for enlightenment on it. If you can demonstrate something contradictory about my view of this passage and Scripture itself, I'll learn from it and change my view.

But just because Jesus refer's to Hell's fire in other passages will not do here. Nor will three guys opinion on the internet.

Again and again, if Jesus had meant the fire of Hell, He'd of said so. Do you think any of the 11 disciples He was speaking to will experience Hell's fire?

Im not really sure if we go through a fire or not, we might. Some kind of pure fire which trys us or our works or something like that. I really don't know if that scripture is allegory or not at this point.

I read in an extra-biblical text that Abraham actually was cast into a firey furnace at some point too, just like Shadrach, meshec & Abednego did...and Abraham came out alive too...it was either Enoch or the book of jubilees I think.

 

[chessman]

Im not really sure if we go through a fire or not, we might.

1 Corinthians 3:15-16 (LEB) If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire. Do you not know that you are God’s temple and the Spirit of God dwells in you?
​

I'm sure that anyone in whom the Spirit of God dwells (i.e. has been baptized in the Holy Spirit) will in fact go through a baptism in fire.

 

[JLB]

Yes there is and I've already posted it. So have you. You just don't realize it because you're not thinking of the passage as it was spoken to the disciples in the Greek. Jesus is tying the sounds (and their meanings) of the words used for removing the non-fruit bearing branch (singular) and the fruit bearing branch (singular) to the branches (plural) that are clean, yet burned in the fire. It's called a pun. And it's a demonstration of the perfection that is God's Word.

Notice:
John 15:2 Every branch [singular] that does not bear fruit in me, he removes it, and every branch [singular] that bears fruit, he prunes it in order that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:6 (LEB) If anyone [any branch] does not remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and dries up, and they gather them [plural] and throw them [plural] into the fire, and they [plural] are burned.
1+1=2

Yes 1=1 = 2

Those who abide in Him, bear fruit.
Those who are cast out of Him are thrown into the fire and burned.

Burned - Strong's G2545 - kaiō

1. to set on fire, light, burning
2. to burn, consume with fire
   

John 13:10-11(LEB) Jesus said to him, “The one who has bathed only needs to wash his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 (For he knew the one who would betray him; because of this he said, “Not all of you are clean.”)
Judas wasn't clean. Judas had already been dismissed during the John 15:1-6 conversation with the disciples.

Where is the fire mentioned in this scripture that Jesus supposedly cleansed them with.

Again - there is no such verse that teaches us people were thrown into the fire and burned, in order to be cleansed.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


The result of those who do not remain connected, or joined to Jesus Christ, who is our eternal life, will result in them being cast into the fire of hell and burned.

Once again, contradiction from you relative to a Scripture. They were not baptized with fire here. They were only baptized (filled) with the Holy Spirit.

3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:3-4


This is the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, just as John said.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11


If you can show me from the scriptures, on the day of Pentecost where there was another baptizing with fire, then we can discuss it.

Otherwise you make John the baptist out to be a liar.


JLB

 

[smaller]

There is, beyond any question, no eternal life to one of the parties below. Never has been, never will be:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Correlate the above to this scripture, and you MAY perceive the same thing:

Luke 17:34
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Correlate the same thing, here:

Romans 13:
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Correlate the same thing, here:

Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Correlate the same thing, here:

Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

All of the above are exactly IDENTICAL in what they depict and convey.

 

[chessman]

the Spirit came like a mighty rushing wind, witnessed the event, as the tongues of fire appeared to them.

There you go again adding to, subtracting from and rearranging Scripture to suit your ideas.

3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.

The verse doesn't even say that fire appeared to them, much less filled them or baptized them. It says there appeared to them divided tongues as of fire.

Acts 2:3 (LEB) And divided tongues like fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them.

Acts 2:3 (KJV) And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Acts 2:4 (NKJV) And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit...

You might as well say they were filled with something like the Holy Spirit using your methods of rearranging the words of the Bible.

This is the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, just as John said.

No it's not. It's the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the appearance of tongues LIKE fire.