What is the clearest Bible passage that demonstrates loss of salvation to you and why?

[chessman]

It doesn't say that the fruit-bearing branch to be pruned is to be removed, only pruned.

The non-fruit bearing branches are: airó
Phonetic Spelling: (ah'-ee-ro)
Short Definition: I raise, lift up

The fruit bearing branches are: kathairó
Phonetic Spelling: (kath-ah'-ee-ro)
Short Definition: I cleanse, purify, prune

The branches are: katharos
Phonetic Spelling: (kath-ar-os')
Short Definition: clean, pure, unstained

Nowhere does it say the branches are de-saved. Nor does it say foilage is cut off. Nor does it say the branches burn in Hell.

I doubt that God says, eh he's too old, prune him off...2

Genesis 15:15 (LEB) And as for you, you shall go to your ancestors in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age.
​

No way can I agree that God prunes off old people!

Somehow I don't doubt that

 

[JLB]

Repost John 15:6 and color the reference to Hell. It simply says fire. "fire" is used in many passages throughout the Bible to symbolize purification:

Matthew 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who comes after me is more powerful than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned is the language used by Jesus. Show us from the scriptures where anyone was gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned, to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Those who are in Him and become cast out of Him are no longer joined or connected to Him as a branch is joined or connected to the Vine from which it receives life, thus it withers.

I haven't found any scriptures that show us the people were burned when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

"The fire" is used by Jesus to describe a place of punishment, hell.


Here Jesus specifically links THE FIRE with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, intothe fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown intothe fire. Matthew 3:10

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, in His teaching from John 15, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.


The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18



JLB

 

[JLB]

See Matt 3:11-12 where His wheat is baptized and gathered with fire BUT the chaff is burned up by the unquenchable fire.

Matthew 3:11-12 (LEB) I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who comes after me is more powerful than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will clean out his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
John 15:6 is simply another way of expressing Jesus gathering His wheat only using the analogy of a Vindresser maximizing His fruit.

It is you that insert Hell into John 15:6.

Yes the chaff is burned up by fire.

12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12

Unquenchable fire, a reference to the everlasting fires of hell.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

Unless you believe the devil and his angels are being "baptized" with the Holy Spirit, the unquenchable fire or everlasting fire is a reference to hell.


JLB

 

[chessman]

The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

No it doesn't. You are simply adding your idea to what Jesus actually said to His disciples in John 15:6 and ignoring the rest of what He said there to them so you can claim that this passage teaches loss of salvation.

 

[JLB]

No it doesn't. You are simply adding youridea to what Jesus actually said to His disciples in John 15:6 and ignoring the rest of what He said there to them so you can claim that this passage teaches loss of salvation.

Do you believe that "gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned" is a reference to the blessing of salvation?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

Unfruitfulness is why the branch is removed:

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Remaining connected in Him is the key to fruitfulness:

• He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Why would anyone who is honestly desiring the know the truth, think that unfruitfulness in John 15:1-6 that leads to being removed from Christ, and thrown into the fire is a reference to the blessing of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, while at the same time, claiming that the unfruitfulness in the parable of the sower, means not saved.


11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

You plainly argued that only the 4th group who bears fruit were saved, and group 2 & 3 were not saved.


It looks like you have some explaining to do.



JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

You just can't redefine what thrown into the fire and burned means, as it certainly doesn't mean cleaning.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Those who are in Him and then later removed, or cast out or disconnected from Him, no longer have the eternal life that they once had when they were indeed joined to Him, just as the illustration Jesus gave of the branches that were disconnected from the Vine that nourished the branches with life.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.1 Corinthians 6:17

Those who are no longer joined to Him, are no longer "one spirit" with Him.

I want to relay that I'm not one of the people that thinks you can keep sinning after you've been given the truth. I do think that there are stages the belief and there is only one saving belief and the saving belief will not let go of you. It will keep you until the end. This belief is receptive to the warnings given, but also trusts in the Lord fully.

So the above scriptures about the branches are related to Jesus as the "Word". He is also the word of God.(and you know that, I really didn't have to mention it) Remain in him.
John 8:31-32 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

We abide in the Word/his words and this cultivates a true belief if you have a receptive heart for him..................Then you will know the Way, the Truth and the Life. John 14:6

1 Corinthians 6:17 - This is after you have been given the Spirit of Truth. John 14:17

 

[JohnDB]

I'm going to have a slightly different answer.

Salvation into Heaven is something that happens at the end of mortal lifetime.
But a person who enters into Heaven is timeless like God is timeless. So...they are and always have been there.

Now God cannot lie. Nor does God warn people without fully intending on following through with those that misbehave. (Only bad parents do this)

So... between these two facts...God already knows who is going to be saved and who isn't. And scripture does reflect this concept in Peter and in other places.

People who have salvation can't lose it after they are dead physically. Paul talks about salvation as a race...one that he wins by keeping the faith.

 

[chessman]

Do you believe that "gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned" is a reference to the blessing of salvation?

No. I told you already what it means using this passage's context. See Posts #9, #13, #15 and #31 where I've already answered this question over and over. If you need clarification (which evidently you do) ask something about those posts.

John 15:6 should be read and understood in light of it's immediate context, not some other context. I am fully aware that there are other passages that reference Hell's fire, The Eternal Fire and/or the unquenchable fire. But Jesus didn't say the branches are thrown in Hell's fire. Just as there are other passages that reference the fire's purification properties.

All that's necessary to understand what it v6 means is to read the passage for what it IS saying, versus assuming something that it's NOT saying (like 'shoots' are being cut off).

Why don't you answer the questions I've asked you in post #3 about this John 15 passage? How you answer them is the only way for you to defend your understanding of this passage via the Text of this passage itself. It's not gaining you anything to keep posting other passages that are talking about Hell's fire over and over. If Jesus would have meant Hell's fire in John 15:6 He would have said so. He didn't. What He does mention is branches that are cleansed and lifted up, however.

Here, I'll repost the questions you've not answered for your convenience:
1.

Which passage is more clear to you, Gal 5:2-4 or John 15:2a, skipping over 2b-5, then 6?

You never answered this.
2.

Are the fruit bearing branches that are pruned (removed from Christ) also de-saved on your view and why?

Your 'answer' was that the fruit-bearing branches "remains in the Vine" even though the passage says that anyone (meaning any branch, fruit bearing or not) is what was cut off AND get's gathered AND is what withers (not their 'shoots') AND is what get's thrown into the fire.

Your 'answer' is not even an answer to the question nor is it agriculturally based. Fruit bearing branches do get cut off when necessary for the betterment of the vine. But just go with your wrong assumption. Are the 'shoots' de-saved?

Bears fruit = the branch is trimmed of shoots but remains in the Vine itself in which it produces more.

If branches are not what gets thrown into the fire, then you are contradicting what the verse says anyway:

John 15:6 (LEB) If anyone does not remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, ...​

Clearly, it is any of the branches (not their 'shoots') that are allegorically said to be thrown into the fire.

Your idea of 'shoots" being removed (not branches) is once again an idea not found in the Text itself and is literally contradictory to what is said by Jesus about these fruit bearing branches. Plus it's not how vinedressing is performed.

3.

Why do you think Jesus says to the branches "You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you"?

You plainly argued that only the 4th group who bears fruit were saved, and group 2 & 3 were not saved.

No I didn't. Are you aware that there's now a new rule in A&T as follows:

"Do not speak for other members by declaring what they believe or make leaps and draw your own conclusions. Let them state their own theology or doctrine."
​

I merely said what Jesus said; That it was the good soil that was the one example that understood the word and asked you over and over whether believing in something you don't understand can save you. Again, no answer from you though. Just your stating that groups #2 and #3 did understand, contrary to what Jesus said.

 

[Edward]

Gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned is the language used by Jesus. Show us from the scriptures where anyone was gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned, to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Those who are in Him and become cast out of Him are no longer joined or connected to Him as a branch is joined or connected to the Vine from which it receives life, thus it withers.

I haven't found any scriptures that show us the people were burned when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

"The fire" is used by Jesus to describe a place of punishment, hell.


Here Jesus specifically links THE FIRE with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, intothe fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown intothe fire. Matthew 3:10

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, in His teaching from John 15, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.


The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18



JLB

This makes it all pretty clear. These are warnings to us! Very clear warnings I might add 2

 

[JLB]

If branches are not what gets thrown into the fire, then you are contradicting what the verse says anyway:

John 15:6 (LEB) If anyone does not remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, ...
Clearly, it is any of the branches (not their 'shoots') that are allegorically said to be thrown into the fire.

Your idea of 'shoots" being removed (not branches) is once again an idea not found in the Text itself and is literally contradictory to what is said by Jesus about these fruit bearing branches. Plus it's not how vinedressing is performed.

Yes the branches that do not abide in Him because they do not produce fruit, are cast out and thrown into the fire and burned.

They other branches in Him that do produce fruit, are "pruned" so they will bear more fruit.

• The non producing branches themselves are removed and thrown into the fire and burned.
• The producing branches continue to remain connected in Him, but are pruned, so that they will continue to produce fruit even more abundantly.

You "interpretation" see's the producing branches removed and thrown into the fire, when the language says they were pruned, so that they will bear more fruit.

...every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

• How can the producing branches "bear more fruit" if they are removed from the Vine?
• Where does it say the producing branches are cast out and thrown into the fire?

JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Actually, yes you do prune off fruit bearing branches when their time has come.
John 15:2 (LEB) Every branch that does not bear fruit in me, he removes it, and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it in order that it may bear more fruit.
Where does it say excess foliage is pruned off?
It specifically and clearly says that the fruit bearing branches are pruned too. And it says why too.

Fruit bearing branches are not "PRUNED OFF." That is absolutely NOT the specific and clear meaning of the word.
A branch is pruned of excess foliage so that it will bear more fruit.

A branch that is "pruned off" (removed from the vine) is one which does not "abide" in the vine. Those are branches which are thrown in the fire an burned.
John 15:4-6 (RSV) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

You have merely confused the meaning of the words to match the confusion of your eisegesis of that passage.

God cuts off branches which are "in Christ" but which do not produce fruit.
Those branches no longer abide in the vine. (in Christ)
They wither, are gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.(Gr. καίεται; burned)
Being cast into the fire is an often used metaphor for being cast into hell.
Mat 3:10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 13:41-42 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.
Mat 18:8-19 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Mat 25:41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
Luk 3:9 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Luk 3:17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."
Jhn 15:5-6 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

 

[JLB]

This makes it all pretty clear. These are warnings to us! Very clear warnings I might add 2

Yes we love the Lord with all our heart, and we know He loves us dearly and is for us, as He gave His only Son to die in our place, so that we could live forever with Him, as His sons.

However, we are to also walk in the fear of the Lord, which is a healthy respect for Him as God.

This is what Jesus said to His Apostles:
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

• But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. Acts 10:35

• The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to turn one away from the snares of death. Proverbs 14:27

A fountain of Life.



JLB

 

[chessman]

A branch is pruned of excess foliage so that it will bear more fruit.

You obviously don't know how grapevines are pruned. Nor does the passage say excess foliage is cut off.

I posted what the biblical meaning of the words Jesus used and pruning does not mean to cut off excess foliage.

Grapevines produce the most fruit on one-year old wood. Thus you cut off the older branches that have already flowered and produced their fruit. It's called pruning. The following spring some of the buds on that new, one-year-old wood, will grow flowers (which develop into fruit) while the buds on older wood produce only leaves or shoots.

 

[chessman]

How can the producing branches "bear more fruit" if they are removed from the Vine?

Umm, easy. John in a sense, is still bearing fruit today, though dead. The Gospel according to John is just one example. His account probably helps lead more to Christ (the vine) than any other Gospel account. Though ultimately it's the Holy Spirit that seals the deal. Those that John helped lead to the vine (Jesus Christ) are also bearing fruit because, in part, of what John taught them. But more direct to the passage is that it's the vine's fruit itself that ultimately is maximized in it's fruit bearing potential by pruning the older branches away. Including those that have produced their fruit already. The fruit belong to the vine and the vinedresser, not to the branches. Apart from the vine, the branches can do nothing, including bear any fruit.

In a grape vine, it is only the new branches (one maybe two years old) that bear the buds that flowers and turn to fruit (grapes). That's why you cut them back each year. If you never cut back branches that bear fruit, you end up with a vine that is MUCH less productive.

If you want to understand "pruning" from an agricultural stand-point, ask someone that knows what they're talking about. You obviously don't. Here:

"The key to pruning grapes is understanding their fruiting habit. Grapes produce the most fruit on shoots growing off of one-year-old canes."​

Source:
http://garden.org/ediblelandscaping/?page=201112-how-to

If you "prune" all the vine's shoots, you'd never produce any fruit.

If you want to understand Jesus' allegorical meaning, read (and explain) verse 3 rather than cut it out of the passage.

Where does it say the producing branches are cast out and thrown into the fire?

It says anyone (meaning any branch) in the very verse you insert Hell into, as if every verse in the Bible where fire appears is Hell's fire. Again, if Jesus would have meant the fire of Hell, He would have said so. Your insertion of Hell into the verse has been exposed for exactly what it is!

John 15:6 (LEB) If anyone does not remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and dries up, and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
​

You "interpretation" see's the producing branches removed and thrown into the fire, when the language says they were pruned,

That's correct. The branches were "cleaned" by The Father as the Greek states.

The word for pruned AND for removed BOTH not only sound alike they have like meaning in the Greek. And they are tied to the next verse's sound and meaning. Literally interpreted as clean.

Your 'interpretation' inserts the word Hell into a passage with absolutely no exegetical reasoning whatsoever.

Show us from the scriptures where anyone was gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned, to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I didn't say "anyone was gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned, to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why misrepresent what I said???

Read what John The Baptist says more clearly:

Luke 3:16 (LEB) John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but the one who is more powerful than I am is coming, of whom I am not worthy to untie the strap of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.​

Baptism with fire is in addition to baptism with the Holy Spirit! See John 15:6

 

[JLB]

Umm, easy. John in a sense, is still bearing fruit today, though dead.

Yes, John would be an example of those who remain connected in Him and did in fact bear fruit. He was never cast out and removed from Christ.

JLB

 

[JLB]

In a grape vine, it is only the new branches (one maybe two years old) that bear the buds that flowers and turn to fruit (grapes). That's why you cut them back each year. If you never cut back branches that bear fruit, you end up with a vine that is MUCH less productive.

Exactly, the fruitful branch itself is never removed from the Vine, but is pruned.

Unfruitful branches are removed from the Vine itself, and cast into the fire and burned.

The key to the whole issue is "in Christ" or "removed from Christ".


Those who are in Christ, have access to the eternal life within Him.

Those who are removed from Christ do not. that's why they are thrown into the fire and burned.


JLB

 

[JLB]

That's correct. The branches were "cleaned" by The Father as the Greek states.

3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. John 15:3-4

Yes cleansed from sin and unrighteousness so that they can be "in Christ".

This does not negate the requirement to abide: remain connected in Him, as we are told to do.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The word for pruned AND for removed BOTH not only sound alike they have like meaning in the Greek. And they are tied to the next verse's sound and meaning. Literally interpreted as clean.

Your 'interpretation' inserts the word Hell into a passage with absolutely no exegetical reasoning whatsoever.

Your lack of posting scripture, indicates you are hiding what is so plain and evident to all who read these passages.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

How does one come to be in Christ?

Does a person who is "in Christ", then removed from Christ, still have the same benefit as the one who remains "in Christ".


It very simple, to those who seek the truth.

• Those who remain in Christ, are not thrown into the fire and burned.
• Those who are removed from Christ are thrown into the fire and burned.

JLB

 

[JLB]

It says anyone (meaning any branch) in the very verse you insert Hell into,

Correct, any branch in Him, that does not remain in Him is thrown into the fire and burned.

That would be the end of the OSAS doctrine.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I didn't say "anyone was gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned, to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why misrepresent what I said???

Read what John The Baptist says more clearly:

Luke 3:16 (LEB) John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but the one who is more powerful than I am is coming, of whom I am not worthy to untie the strap of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Baptism with fire is in addition to baptism with the Holy Spirit! See John 15:6

If you think that cast into the fire and burned means the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire, then please show us the scriptures where someone was thrown into the fire and burned, as a way of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If this is not what you meant, then please explain why you are attempting to associate the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire, with the what Jesus said of those who are removed from Him... thrown into the fire and burned.




JLB