What is the clearest Bible passage that demonstrates loss of salvation to you and why?

[chessman]

I don't do "proof-texting." IMHO, the scripture is to be taken as a piece, not a collection of self-contained, one liners.

iakov the fool

So your bolding and underlining means what then? Nothing you bolded or underlined says anything about 'loss of salvation'. If they did, they'd be clear. However, as it stands, there must be something unique about theses that lead you to post them.

If you don't have one that is the clearest to you that teaches you loss of salvation, fine. I unerdstand that since none mention loss of salvation.

 

[Jim Parker]

So your bolding and underlining means what then? Nothing you bolded or underlined says anything about 'loss of salvation'. If they did, they'd be clear. However, as it stands, there must be something unique about theses that lead you to post them.

If you don't have one that is the clearest to you that teaches you loss of salvation, fine. I unerdstand that since none mention loss of salvation.

They ALL talk about loss of salvation.
Unless, of course, you don't want to see it.
And, in that case, I cannot help you.

 

[chessman]

I don't do "proof-texting."

Do these texts prove something to you then?
I don't understand why you posted them if they don't prove something.

Since none of these passages speak directly to loss of salvation (nothing you bolded or underlined mentions loss of salvation) then you must be assuming there's loss of salvation spoken of in them somewhere.

All I'm asking of each member is to answer the simple OP question. No one has done so. Which is odd and indicative of the fact that there is no truly clear passage that does speak of loss of salvation.

Since, like JLB, you are not answering the simple little question of this thread, I'll just pick one of the passage you posted that 'proves' loss of salvation to you (but let's not call it a proof Text) and provide a comment:

From Ez 18:24 you underlined:

because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

This passage doesn't say or even remotely imply that righteous men go to Hell. It simply says they die. I have no idea your point of even posting it in response to the OP's question.

 

[chessman]

They ALL talk about loss of salvation.
Unless, of course, you don't want to see it.

Please underline where any of them say "loss of salvation" as none do in fact say it. Or at least explain which one is the clearest to you that implies it.

 

[Jim Parker]

Since none of these passages speak directly to loss of salvation

I don't know what you mean by "speaks directly" since they all speak of the loss of eternal life.
It is unfortunate that you cannot discern the teaching.

All I'm asking of each member is to answer the simple OP question.

Sure. That's like looking for a "yes" or "no" answer to the question, "Do you still beat your wife?".
The literature of the Bible is a bit more complicated than the proof-text snippets you seem to be seeking.
Hopefully, you will be able to move beyond that stage.
I have given you the core of why I reject the OSAS heresy.
It is already "boiled down" but I refuse to attempt to further reduce it to tiny baby-palatable bits because some people have difficulty grasping the content more than one phrase at a time.

 

[JLB]

Then stop doing it. I posted what it means. There's zero reason to think Jesus meant this fire to be Hell's fire.

In this passage Jesus refers to those who are removed from Him, "cast out as a branch" and thrown into the fire and burned, which is clearly a reference to hell.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


"The fire", refers specifically to hell.


Here are some other examples that refer specifically to the fire.

Here Jesus specifically links THE FIRE with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 3:10

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, in His teaching from John 15, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.


The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


If you believe the fire mentioned in John 15:6 is not a reference to hell fire, then please post the scriptures of Jesus teaching about people being thrown into "some other fire and burned".



JLB

 

[Edward]

I think this will answer the original question.

Psalms 69:28

He's praying about his enemies, but the implication is clear...names can be blotted out of the Book of Life.

 

[Jim Parker]

Then stop doing it. I posted what it means. There's zero reason to think Jesus meant this fire to be Hell's fire.

There is zero reason NOT to think this is the fires of hell.
It is only the scriptural contortionist who avoids accepting the obvious.

 

[chessman]

There is zero reason NOT to think this is the fires of hell.

Except for the fact that it doesn't say the fires of Hell, of course.
I prefer to read the Text and not insert ideas into it. I think it's perfect as written.

 

[Jim Parker]

I prefer to read the Text and not insert ideas into it.

(Edited by staff) You have inserted YOUR ideas into it rather than using the many other examples of the word fire being connected to hell.

 

[chessman]

In this passage Jesus refers to those who are removed from Him, "cast out as a branch" and thrown into the fire and burned, which is clearly a reference to hell.

No it's not "clearly a reference to hell". You insert that idea into this verse.

"The fire", refers specifically to hell.

Repost John 15:6 and color the reference to Hell. It simply says fire. "fire" is used in many passages throughout the Bible to symbolize purification:

Matthew 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who comes after me is more powerful than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
​

Here Jesus specifically links THE FIRE with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

That's correct. He does THERE. That's my point. If John 15:6 was meant by Jesus as a reference to Hell's fire, Eternal fire or unquencable fire, He would have said so. As it stands, He did not. You do!

f you believe the fire mentioned in John 15:6 is not a reference to hell fire, then please post the scriptures of Jesus teaching about people being thrown into "some other fire and burned".

I have on multiple occassions before. But here's one example:

See Matt 3:11-12 where His wheat is baptized and gathered with fire BUT the chaff is burned up by the unquenchable fire.

Matthew 3:11-12 (LEB) I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who comes after me is more powerful than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will clean out his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
​

John 15:6 is simply another way of expressing Jesus gathering His wheat only using the analogy of a Vindresser maximizing His fruit.

It is you that insert Hell into John 15:6.

 

[Edward]

So we're supposed to take John 5:16 as being tossed into a purification fire?

It shore doan' read like that.

 

[chessman]

Psalms 69:28

He's praying about his enemies, but the implication is clear...names can be blotted out of the Book of Life.

I'm sure names can be blotted out of the Book of Life. Judas for example died and received his wages for his wickedness. See Acts 1 where Psalm 69 is attributed to his death so that Scripture could be fullfilled.

The question of the OP, however, is not whether people can die, but rather what passage is clearest to you that people can loose their salvation (not loose their life).

John 6:64 (LEB) But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him. ​

Clearly, Jesus knew from the beginning Judas did not believe in Him. And in fact was Jesus' enemy.

 

[Edward]

I'm sure names can be blotted out of the Book of Life. Judas for example died and received his wages for his wickedness. See Acts 1 where Psalm 69 is attributed to his death so that Scripture could be fullfilled.

The question of the OP, however, is not whether people can die, but rather what passage is clearest to you that people can loose their salvation (not loose their life).

John 6:64 (LEB) But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him. ​

Clearly, Jesus knew from the beginning Judas did not believe in Him. And in fact was Jesus' enemy.

So blotting out a name from the book of life, doesn't mean salvation, but flesh life?

I want to be sure that's what you mean...

 

[chessman]

(Edited by staff) You have inserted YOUR ideas into it rather than using the many other examples of the word fire being connected to hell.

Rather than copy/paste examples where Jesus does say Hell's fire or The Lake of Fire etc., why not let the very context of John 15:6 determine what the fire is meant to be in that verse???

Why do you think He prunes fruit bearing branches off of the vine?

John 15:2-3, 11 (LEB) Every branch that does not bear fruit in me, he removes it, and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it in order that it may bear more fruit. ...
You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. ...
I have spoken these things to you in order that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be made complete.​

I know why; in order that it can bear even more fruit and so that the branchs' joy may be made complete.

To turn this verse into a de-salvation passage is an obvious ignoring of it's true message. Not to mention a basing of someone's salvation on how much fruit they bear each year. Branches that are in Him are removed or pruned (both of which carry the meaning of cleansing). But there's zero reference to Hell or Hell's fire in this passage. Some people add that idea to one verse within the passage simply because it mentions fire. Odd really.

 

[chessman]

So blotting out a name from the book of life, doesn't mean salvation, but flesh life?

Of course blotting out a name from the book of life doesn't mean salvation. It means what it says. Just as Peter said what it meant and applying that Psalm Judas after his death (who John confirms was Jesus' betrayer from the beginning and did not believe in Jesus from the beginning).

Since Psalm 69:28 is the clearest loss of salvation passage to you, you've made no case whatsoever as to why it is loss of salvation.

The verse is clearly about David wishing death upon the enemies of Israel. Not loose of Salvation toward Israel.

Only thing I can figure is you somehow think being blotted out of the book of life is a misquote and should have said 'being blotted out of the book of salvation'.

 

[Edward]

Of course blotting out a name from the book of life doesn't mean salvation. It means what it says. Just as Peter said what it meant and applying that Psalm Judas after his death (who John confirms was Jesus' betrayer from the beginning and did not believe in Jesus from the beginning).

Since Psalm 69:28 is the clearest loss of salvation passage to you, you've made no case whatsoever as to why it is loss of salvation.

The verse is clearly about David wishing death upon the enemies of Israel. Not loose of Salvation toward Israel.

Only thing I can figure is you somehow think being blotted out of the book of life is a misquote and should have said 'being blotted out of the book of salvation'.

I never heard of it being called the book of salvation. I've read where it calls it the Book Of Life...

What Scripture calls it the book of Salvation?

 

[Jim Parker]

why not let the very context of John 15:6 determine what the fire is meant to be in that verse???

I did.

Why do you think He prumes fruit bearing branches off of the vine?

That's not what the scripture says.

It says that every branch that does not bear fruit is taken away (Gr.: αἴρει; removed from, cut off from) from the vine.
And, by comparison, those branches which bear fruit are pruned (Gr.:καθαίρει: cleansed, pruned) so thatthey will bear even more fruit.

You do not "prune off" a fruit bearing branch. You prune off excess foliage which tends to reduce the amount of fruit the branch will bear.

You have incorrectly conflated the two words.

 

[chessman]

You do not "prune off" a fruit bearing branch. You prune off excess foliage

Actually, yes you do prune off fruit bearing branches when their time has come.

John 15:2 (LEB) Every branch that does not bear fruit in me, he removes it, and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it in order that it may bear more fruit.​

Where does it say excess foliage is pruned off? It specifically and clearly says that the fruit bearing branches are pruned too. And it says why too.

I've grown grape vines that are over thirty years old. You must prune off branches (even those that bear fruit) so that new ones can grow and bear even more fruit than the branch you just cut off.

Old fruit bearing branches are just that, old. They've done what they were created for and there comes a time when they must be removed from the vine. It maximizes the vine's fruit production when new branches spring forth from the vine in the place of old ones.

Additionally there is a pun being used in this passage. Having just cut-off Judas, the disciples are encouraged by what Jesus tells them in verse 3. They are already clean. Yet subject to pruning too:

Hebrews 12:6, 11 (LEB) For the Lord disciplines the one whom he loves, and punishes every son whom he accepts.”​

...

Now all discipline seems for the moment not to be joyful but painful, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness for those who are trained by it.​

For a NT Greek scholarly explanation of this passage see:

https://billmounce.com/blog/play-words-john-15-2-3

 

[Edward]

John 15:2 (LEB) Every branch that does not bear fruit in me, he removes it, and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it in order that it may bear more fruit.
Where does it say excess foliage is pruned off? It specifically and clearly says that the fruit bearing branches are pruned too. And it says why too.

It doesn't say that the fruit-bearing branch to be pruned is to be removed, only pruned. Presumably of excess sin, I mean foliage.

I doubt that God says, eh he's too old, prune him off...2
When the Israelites left bondage in Egypt, there were none that were infirm. No crutches, no one helping carry someone...nothing like that. And there were how many? Something like 2 million people?!

God strengthens whom He needs, makes old ladies bear children, whatever He wants. No way can I agree that God prunes off old people!