What is the work of the builder that will burn?

[JLB]

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. Matthew 28:19-20


They learned how to make Disciples, from the Lord himself.

A disciple that grows up into a mature fruit bearing plant, will do so because the one who disciples them spends the appropriate time with them.

A disciple is not someone who hears the Gospel message and goes about there merry way.

A disciple stays with the one who is discipling, day and night for years, the way Jesus made His disciples.


JLB

 

[follower]

"16...you appear as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. " (Philippians 2:16 NASB)

Perhaps everyone(who hasn't yet) 'should', ought to, 'needs'? to, pray the Lord of the Harvest to provide at least one "light in the world" for them to see (to start with), so they can come unto Yeshua the Author and the Finisher of Faith. As Yeshua told His disciples, "with men this is impossible", and again "if you trust yourselves to do this, you have failed already" (paraphrased , forgotten source), continuing "but if you trust** ABBA to accomplish everything related to Salvation, then it is already done" (paraphrased, forgotten source). So, simply, then, Yeshua said what must be done, and who could do it.

**"trust" = active , living, believing, vital, totally dependent all encompassing life obedient in all things 'trust'

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...together we are all one body of Christ who receive the crown of glory to place before the feet of Christ.

I don't agree. Paul says this:

"8 ...but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor." (1 Corinthians 3:8 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?goto/post&id=985440#post-985440

My point is; as with all of Paul’s writings, he gives the credit for “placing” people in the Kingdom to God, not himself.

6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing it to grow. 7 So then, neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who is causing it to grow. (LEB)

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?goto/post&id=985489#post-985489

Lol, this is funny.​

What is funny is that you think I've been saying we bring the increase ourselves. Paul plainly said God brings the increase, just as he also plainly said the worker through whom the increase comes is rewarded for his labor.

 

[chessman]

Poll Results: What do you think the work is that Paul says will be burned up?
Members who voted for 'People you place in the building of God but who don't pass through the Final Judgment of God.'

• Jethro Bodine
• JLB

What is funny is that you think I've been saying we bring the increase ourselves. Paul plainly said God brings the increase, just as he also plainly said the worker through whom the increase comes is rewarded for his labor.

I don’t think you said “people you place in the building of God” using 1 Cor 3 even though 1 Cor 3 specifically says it's God that does that, I know you did.

What’s funny to me is that you can somehow now reconcile your current view that it’s God that brings the increase but turn right around and say that it’s you that place people in the building of God. Nowhere does Scripture state that Paul placed people in the building of God. Nor does it say that Paul decreased the # of people in the building of God

Hypothetically speaking, Paul could have taken the Gospel to Asia and not converted a single soul there. God would have rewarded Paul in the exact same way and with the same measure God intended because Paul did the work assigned him by God faithfully whether or not the people responded. Why? Because it’s “God causing the increase”.

Paul’s reward is NOT based on the # of people he places in the building in the first place (God causes the increase) and it’s sure not based on the # of people that leave the building later (if any do). Just because you’d like it to be people that are burned up, doesn’t mean it’s true.

What’s also funny to me is that you think an OP about people that have been placed in the building of God yet then are supposedly burned up and do not pass through the Final Judgment of God is not an OP about anti-OSAS.

 

[JLB]

Poll Results: What do you think the work is that Paul says will be burned up?
Members who voted for 'People you place in the building of God but who don't pass through the Final Judgment of God.'

• Jethro Bodine
• JLB

I don’t think you said “people you place in the building of God” using 1 Cor 3 even though 1 Cor 3 specifically says it's God that does that, I know you did.

What’s funny to me is that you can somehow now reconcile your current view that it’s God that brings the increase but turn right around and say that it’s you that place people in the building of God. Nowhere does Scripture state that Paul placed people in the building of God. Nor does it say that Paul decreased the # of people in the building of God

Hypothetically speaking, Paul could have taken the Gospel to Asia and not converted a single soul there. God would have rewarded Paul in the exact same way and with the same measure God intended because Paul did the work assigned him by God faithfully whether or not the people responded. Why? Because it’s “God causing the increase”.

Paul’s reward is NOT based on the # of people he places in the building in the first place (God causes the increase) and it’s sure not based on the # of people that leave the building later (if any do). Just because you’d like it to be people that are burned up, doesn’t mean it’s true.

What’s also funny to me is that you think an OP about people that have been placed in the building of God yet then are supposedly burned up and do not pass through the Final Judgment of God is not an OP about anti-OSAS.

Do you somehow think that Paul raised up Churches by preaching the Gospel, and then left town, the way its done in America today?

Paul discipled people, as a spiritual father, as raised them and taught them the lifestyle of God's kingdom.

19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state. 20 For I have no one like-minded, who will sincerely care for your state. 21 For all seek their own, not the things which are of Christ Jesus. 22 But you know his proven character, that as a son with his father he served with me in the gospel. Philippians 2:19-22


Timothy's proven character, was a product of Paul working with him, as a father does a son.

Paul was man who poured his life into those who would listen and respond to his instruction.

Paul was a spiritual father to those whom God had granted the authority to raise up as the Temple of God.


Here is the context of our discussion from 1 Corinthians 3 -

For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 1 Corinthians 4:15

Paul labored to raise up Godly spiritual children as sons of God.


Paul teaches us that if he builds these spiritual sons of his with Paul, Paul's knowledge and ability, then that is likened to wood hay and stubble, and it will not stand the test on Judgment Day.

But, if Paul builds with Christ, and the resources that come from Him, the it is likened to building with Gold, Silver and precious things.


That is why God in His wisdom, sent Paul to the Gentiles, so that Paul with all his vast knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures and mindset, and superior legal mind, would have to rely on Him, because the gentiles were unlearned in Hebrew and had no knowledge of these things.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't agree. Paul says this:

"8 ...but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor." (1 Corinthians 3:8 NASB)

1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Yes, each will receive his own reward, but together as one does it not take a church to raise a child! Paul that planted and Apollos that watered are but one in the body of Christ just as you have planted you get your reward for planting and another gets their reward for watering as being good servants of the Lord. You have done what you were called to do whether that one comes to the Lord or not.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus Christ uses human beings.

Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist's, Pastors, Teachers.

All these are co-laborers with Christ to do the Work of the Ministry in bringing the Church into maturity.

and again -

... how shall they hear without a preacher.

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!" Romans 10:14-15


JLB

Yes, Jesus uses human beings that He has called, but it is not us, but that of Christ who works through us as there is nothing apart from the Holy Spirit that we can do of ourselves.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[JLB]

Yes, Jesus uses human beings that He has called, but it is not us, but that of Christ who works through us as there is nothing apart from the Holy Spirit that we can do of ourselves.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Exactly what I have been saying.

As Paul builds into His Disciples using Christ, He will be rewarded, as his disciples, the stones of the building,will stand up to the test of fire, on the day of Judgement.

If Paul were to have used his own ability, rather than the Spirit of Christ, his disciples, his work, would be burned up as hay and stubble.


This is the picture that Paul is painting for us as future workers with God, that we ourselves would heed his instruction, and rely upon the Holy Spirit, just as you have said.

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. Galatians 4:19-20


This is not the work of a man who merely uses his head knowledge to make disciples, this work goes far deeper until Christ is formed within them.

This is the work of the Spirit through Paul.


JLB

 

[Sparkey]

When I have questions about a certain Scripture or teaching the first thing that I should do would be to go before the Lord in prayer and ask as in the "Ask, and it will be Given; Seek. and you will Find; Knock, and the door will be Opened" manner.

That habit (which takes a lifetime to develop) is one of the "Best Practices" sort. As we follow after what the man who said, "If you love me, obey me" commanded, the Holy Spirit builds in us. We try figure things out. When we go before Him to ask first, we are obeying. Don't be too surprised if it sounds too easy because He also said, "My burden is light." Remember how the Lord would cry out, "Those who have an ear to hear, let them hear..."? That's part of our seeking and asking. Then, after our initial puzzlement and inquiry, we quiet ourselves and listen. These 'rudimentary' things are part of the 'work' that we do. It's part of the way we relate to our Father. It's easy because we want to know Him and become more like Him. We obey also when we earnestly to understand some of the hidden things of the Spirit.

There is more to our "work" than that, of course, and you really don't need to be taught such elementary things (because you already know) but I speak them to set the stage for a response to the question about our 'work'.

Finding precious stones does take effort. Mostly what we do is go about our business and follow after the leading of the Holy Spirit and lo and behold: He reveals something to us. Then, as we examine the revelation, it is indeed like a precious stone - there are more and more facets that are seen. Looking at the truth from one angle or another illuminates and it dawns on us that what was shown is indeed precious.

What work may we do? We are told to build each other up in our most holy faith. If we were to take that which is given, that precious, precious stone... and if we were to share it, to show it forth, something rather marvelous may happen. We could find ourselves (as others have mentioned here) cooperating with the Holy Spirit. There is NOTHING that we do for the Lord that escapes His notice. We're not talking about the "Look at me!" things we so often do, they don't count. That would be building with wood, or hay, or stubble. There are other examples.

I probably could go on but these initial thoughts are enough until after such time as I am given more to say. It starts by asking God, "How may I help?" Each contributor to this thread is 'working' to help others gain greater understanding and clarity. I can't help but recall that clarity is a major factor that determines worth for precious stones, is it not? Each contribution, each view, given to the Body of Christ that is shared helps. If much is given? Much is required. We do see as though a dark glass (through a glass, darkly) and we need each other also to continue to learn. Comparing notes on what the Lord is saying to each of us is part of that work which will endure.

I pray that our contributions here, our works (even in this very thread), may be found to be of the Gold, Silver and Precious Stone type. And I am also thankful that the stuff, the wood, the hay and stubble -- the junk that I do that is not Given to me shall not last.

~Sparrow

 

[Jethro Bodine]

[...]
Just because you’d like it to be people that are burned up, doesn’t mean it’s true.

What’s also funny to me is that you think an OP about people that have been placed in the building of God yet then are supposedly burned up and do not pass through the Final Judgment of God is not an OP about anti-OSAS.

Here, let me edumacate you in what the scriptures say:

40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:40-43 NASB EMPHASIS IN ORIGINAL)

Even as a devout OSAS'er all you have to argue is that those people who will be purged out of the kingdom and burned up were never 'really' saved to begin with. But I'm focusing on the point that it is indeed people who get burned off in the coming Judgment, and the reward for the worker is based on how many do NOT burn up. I am not addressing a non-OSAS view, though I can easily do that from the scripture I've been sharing here.

And, chessman, since we know the reward for the gospel worker for souls that pass safely through the fire is that they will be a crown of joy and exultation for that worker, explain how none, a few, or a lot of souls saved on the Day of Christ somehow means the reward is exactly the same in each case.

 

[JLB]

That is straight out of Jethro Bodines school of cyphering!

 

[Sparkey]

Here, let me edumacate you in what the scriptures say:

40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire...

Are we really trying to interpret this to say that the 'works' is necessarily people?

The Matt 13 quote includes two characteristics or descriptors: "Stumbling Blocks" and "Those Who Commit Lawlessness". As you know, Romans 14 discusses stumbling blocks in great detail. I don't get the sense that the "stumbling blocks" referred to are people.

On the other hand, "those who commit lawlessness" are clearly a group of people: the lawless ones...


While looking at this, we consider what is said about "Law" and "Lawless" in 1Timothy:

... From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. [1Ti 1:6-11 KJV]
​

I do take your point that the group that are lawless will include those who have departed from the law, hence the comment about OSAS. It doesn't sound like people are the PRIMARY definition of the 'work of the builder that will burn'. The idea that it could (does?) include people is true enough though. Indeed we hear about those who have "swerved" meaning that at one point or another they were on the right path. But then we hear more about the ones who are called lawless and disobedient. They include the ungodly, the sinners, the unholy and the profane. We have other passages (sometimes whole chapters) that describe the "clouds without water" sort.

_______________________________________
It's not my intent to be a nay-sayer here. What could be an example of "works" that fits into what I see as the primary meaning of the passage? Everybody has examples of "works" that are included in the "Gold, Silver and Precious Stones" category. For instance, I was recently hospitalized and underwent surgery.

I came here (and elsewhere) to ask for prayer. The prayers that were offered in faith (and even the ones that were lip-service only) are both "works". There are many examples of our 'works' and yes, your instruction could also be considered a 'work'.

 

[chessman]

And, chessman, since we know the reward for the gospel worker for souls that pass safely through the fire is that they will be a crown of joy and exultation for that worker, explain how none, a few, or a lot of souls saved on the Day of Christ somehow means the reward is exactly the same in each case.

Someone gradeating thru de hole 6th grad might thunk we wil b exulatiating the wurkers in the kingdumb of the workers.

However, Biblically speaking, we will be exalting God in The Kingdom of God. You know, the Grower that caused His Kingdom to grow.

 

[JLB]

Someone gradeating thru de hole 6th grad might thunk we wil b exulatiating the wurkers in the kingdumb of the workers.

However, Biblically speaking, we will be exalting God in The Kingdom of God. You know, the Grower that caused His Kingdom to grow.

Did the Grower that caused the Kingdom to grow, by any chance use a human being to water?

We know from the words of Jesus, that the Grower removes EVERY branch that does not produce fruit. ....every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes.

We know from the words of Jesus, that .... If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

So I believe that clears up this mystery.


Moving right along.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Sparrowhawk said -

The Matt 13 quote includes two characteristics or descriptors: "Stumbling Blocks" and "Those Who Commit Lawlessness". As you know, Romans 14 discusses stumbling blocks in great detail. I don't get the sense that the "stumbling blocks" referred to are people.

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42

He said and cast them into the furnace of fire...

A more detailed snapshot of this event is described by The Lord in Matthew 25 -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...Matthew 25:31-34

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41,46


There will be two groups of people, standing before the Lord on The Day of Judgement.

Personally, I don't see any of those who are in these two groups as being of the world, but rather His servants, or His flock.

But that is another study...


JLB

 

[Sparkey]

..He said and cast them into the furnace of fire...
.
JLB

The KJV translates Strongs G3956 in the following manner:

• all (748x)
• all things (170x)
• every (117x)
• all men (41x)

and as other words or phrases (167x) carrying essentially similar meanings.

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.…

If I were trying to convince myself of what you teach here, I might bring up 2 Tim 2:20-21 as well. That passage supports "The People View" but does not demand the "People Only View". That interpretation struggles to reconcile itself but does not seamlessly conform it's meaning to 1 Cor 2:12-13. JLB, are you certain that your view of the meaning of the gold, silver, etc., dubbed, 'The People Only View' is the only way of thinking on this?

I like the beginning of Lamentations 4 for support of what I hear you saying.

"How dark the gold has become, How the pure gold has changed! The sacred stones are poured out at the corner of every street. 2 The precious sons of Zion, weighed against fine gold, how they are regarded as earthen jars, the work of a potter's hands! 3 Even jackals offer the breast, they nurse their young; but the daughter of my people has become cruel Like ostriches in the wilderness."​

I see myself there all too clearly but I would need further convincing to think that this is the only way of looking at it. I have changed my mind a bit though. Thank you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What’s funny to me is that you can somehow now reconcile your current view that it’s God that brings the increase but turn right around and say that it’s you that place people in the building of God.

So there will be no more confusion about how 'we' place people in the building of God:

5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul?Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted,Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid,which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones,wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

But at least you agree that what is being built here is the building of God composed of other people. We are merely the instruments, God's fellow workers, through which that happens as God gives each of us the opportunity to serve.

Nor does it say that Paul decreased the # of people in the building of God

Did someone suggest that? And after thinking about it some more I may challenge your assertion.

Hypothetically speaking, Paul could have taken the Gospel to Asia and not converted a single soul there. God would have rewarded Paul in the exact same way and with the same measure God intended because Paul did the work assigned him by God faithfully whether or not the people responded.

Certainly true in regard to Paul's fundamental calling to operate in his gift. Like Ezekiel, and Jeremiah (whom Paul compares himself to), he is not responsible for whether they listen or not, just that he goes where he's sent and does the work of planting and building, whether it is successful, or not . But we can't ignore the fact that he clearly talks about the potential of experiencing loss:

"14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss..." (1 Corinthians 3:14-15 NASB)

And you agree that what is being built is the building of God made up of people, so what then is the loss if what the worker builds is burned up?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is straight out of Jethro Bodines school of cyphering!

You got that right, uncle Jed!

 

[Sparkey]

I was about to go to bed and I found myself laughing at me (again) as I spoke to our Lord. I had chuckled at myself and confessed that I could make a case that my participation in this thread may be considered as part of the works that shall be burned. Now, if I were able to compose myself and somehow follow more closely after our God of Peace? That would at least move toward the gold, silver and precious stone direction.

Do me a favor when you see me enter disputes that have very little importance beyond "I'm right and you're wrong" especially in trivial things, consider the command found in 1 John 5:16 and apply it to me, or rather, for me. Please? Certainly it's okay to have and hold a different thought than that which has occurred to me.