What is unconditional election, and is it biblical?

[rrowell]

Well, there are other reasons which are not tied to this idea of leaving it up to the sinner to repent.

they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. 1 Pet 2:8

When you quote scripture, please state the version you are quoting from,

The above verse you quoted, you left out half of it:

1 Peter 2:8 (KJV)
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

The "stone of stumbling" and "rock of offence" refer to those who make the "Cornerstone" aka "Christ" and his word, by disbelief, cause this "corner stone" to become their "stone of stumbling"...

The "whereunto also they were appointed" does NOT mean they were predestined to such disobedience by arbitrary and immutable decree, but because such stumbling is the inevitable result of unbelief...

Galatians 6:7 (KJV)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Now, don't side track my question, how can this scripture fit into your predestined doctrine:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[heymikey80]

I agree.

Great, then let's move to:

INo, everyone who RECEIVES HIM is given power to become the sons of God.. it's like bible 101.

... there's more to that sentence.

... to those believing in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13 Those who believe were previously born of God.

Then there's "For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith." 1 John 5:4
So the one born of God overcomes the world, and that through faith. Someone who is born of God has the faith which overcomes the world.

There's also "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and whosoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." 1 John 5:1. Again, everyone who believes has been born of God. And with 5:4, everyone who has been born of God overcomes through faith.

IHe's the best there is no doubt.

Yes.

 

[Eventide]

... there's more to that sentence.

Of course there is and there's no question that we are born again by GOD and not ourselves... after trusting in Christ, after hearing the gospel.. that's when we're sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

That in no way negates the truth that those who recieve Him are given power (BY GOD) to become the sons of God.

 

[heymikey80]

When you quote scripture, please state the version you are quoting from,

Well, normally I'll paste from ESV or NASB, but there's also direct translation from UBS 82. So y'see the problem involved: when versions fail, there's always Greek.

The above verse you quoted, you left out half of it:

Well, you left out the rest of the sentence in John 1:13, too.

1 Peter 2:8 (KJV)
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

The "stone of stumbling" and "rock of offence" refer to those who make the "Cornerstone" aka "Christ" and his word, by disbelief, cause this "corner stone" to become their "stone of stumbling"...

The "whereunto also they were appointed" does NOT mean they were predestined to such disobedience by arbitrary and immutable decree, but because such stumbling is the inevitable result of unbelief...

That's what theological Reprobation is:

the decision: to leave them the common misery into which, by their own fault, they have plunged themselves; not to grant them saving faith and the grace of conversion; but finally to condemn and eternally punish them (having been left in their own ways and under his just judgment), not only for their unbelief but also for all their other sins Canons of Dordt, 1.15​

It's been God's decision ever since He said there would be a Day of Reckoning. Are people appointed to this doom? Then they're appointed there.

Galatians 6:7 (KJV)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Sure, but if he reaps everything his sins deserve, then we already know his sins deserve eternal condemnation. Otherwise God isn't judging aright at the Last Judgment.

Now, don't side track my question, how can this scripture fit into your predestined doctrine:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Sure. I'll be happy to -- but again, the Greek is going to be troubling to you.

A look at the word "all" directly in this context doesn't return a pervasiveness to this word.

1 Tim 2:1 -- "first of all" -- clearly this isn't pervasive. It's limited to the context of the letter at dead-level best. Paul isn't saying that the gospel should take second fiddle to praying for every human being, that is, for those in authority to give Christians peaceful lives. Certainly prayer for their salvation would take precedence! Yet Paul says "first of all". But it's not prior to everything.

1 Tim 2:1 -- "on behalf of all men" -- as John says not to pray about certain people who have committed a sin leading to death, it would be inconsistent to demand one Apostle pray for each person, and another not to. So -- a point of consistency. But if Paul were saying to pray on behalf of each & every human being on the planet, then we'd all be working on that and not posting!

1 Tim 2:2 -- "all in authority" -- here one might make the case for pervasiveness, but again it's quite a challenge to pray for each & every authority in the earth.

1 Tim 2:2 -- "all godliness" -- here it's again implausible. Christians don't live lives of pervasive godliness. We all know that. So once again, "all" doesn't mean each & every person.

1 Tim 2:4 -- "who desires all men be saved" -- here the assertion is being made that "all men" means "each person pervasively". Yet there's no consideration to demand that's what's meant, here. It can readily (and I think it does) mean "all men" in the general case -- as for instance the phrase "all men" in Acts 22:15, or "all Jerusalem" in Mk 1:5, or Lk 6:26, or Pp 4:5, or even 1 Cor 9:22.

1 Tim 2:6 -- "Who gave Himself as a ransom for all" -- we're back to a theological debate here. In some theologies Jesus has given Himself as a ransom payment for each and every person. And that's near the edge, but Greek would permit it. The problem is of course, that's not the whole breadth of what this phrase could mean. And it's quite as reasonable to use a more general meaning of "all" to mean Jesus gave Himself as a ransom payment to preserve all humanity, not simply to preserve one class or ethnicity in the world.

I guess my retort to the theological interpretation of "all men" as being each and every person would be, "Why would God still find fault, then? For who can thwart God's will?" Rom 9:19

 

[rrowell]

Well, normally I'll paste from ESV or NASB, but there's also direct translation from UBS 82. So y'see the problem involved: when versions fail, there's always Greek.

Originally Posted by rrowell
Now, don't side track my question, how can this scripture fit into your predestined doctrine:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Sure. I'll be happy to -- but again, the Greek is going to be troubling to you.

No trouble at all, in fact I think it will clear things up... but we MUST return back to 1 Tim 2:4, you claimed to use Greek to make me understand but I saw none, so lets try some and get back to the original point.

The Calvinistic view is that God/Jesus predetermined the fate of man from the creation, nothing one can do about it as it is from design. You would also agree then since God/Jesus being Omniscient would surely know from mans existence to his demise, a man’s heart…

Let’s just do proper exegesis of 1 Tim 2:4, the one in question, and use the Bible to interpret the Greek word rendered (All).

1 Timothy 2:4 (KJV)
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

If we look at Acts 1:24:

Acts 1:24 (KJV)
And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

We see here in this verse the words “all men”, now lets look at the Greek word used to render “all”, it is “pas” properly meaning all of mankind completely…

It is the same Greek word “pas” in 1 Tim 2:4 rendered “all” meaning the exact same thing… now lets look at Mat 14:35

Matthew 14:35 (KJV)
And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;

Here we see the word “all” used twice, the first is the Greek “holos” rendered “all” meaning “all that select/elect country” it does not mean “all and every country”, now the second use is of the exact same Greek “pas” rendered “all that were diseased” meaning “every person that were diseased” not a select people that were diseased…

So in 1 Tim 2:4, God has to mean he wishes for all of man kind elect or not, or you have to believe Jesus does not knowest the hearts of all men and I doubt you could agree with that… to mean only the elect he would have had to use a Greek word like “holos”.

 

[heymikey80]

No trouble at all, in fact I think it will clear things up... but we MUST return back to 1 Tim 2:4, you claimed to use Greek to make me understand but I saw none, so lets try some and get back to the original point.

pas/pantes is used directly in the context of 1 Tim 2:4 in quite a number of places.

I cited them. Instead you shifted to a cherry-picked group of texts completely outside the context of Paul's letter. Why did you do that without responding to the direct context?

Could it be that the context doesn't support your view? At this point that's the only conclusion I can come to, because you didn't answer to the context.

The Calvinistic view is that God/Jesus predetermined the fate of man from the creation, nothing one can do about it as it is from design. You would also agree then since God/Jesus being Omniscient would surely know from mans existence to his demise, a man’s heart…

God certainly would know. However, 1 Tim 2:4 would not need to state a desire on God's part to save each and every person.

I assert your citations are cherry picking. To alleviate those charges, explain how "pas" is meant pervasively in:

as for instance the phrase "all men" in Acts 22:15, or "all Jerusalem" in Mk 1:5, or Lk 6:26, or Pp 4:5, or even 1 Cor 9:22.

And when you're done with that, let's address the use of "pas" in 1 Timothy 2:1-6.

Let’s just do proper exegesis of 1 Tim 2:4, the one in question, and use the Bible to interpret the Greek word rendered (All).

Yes, let's. Proper exegesis uses context. The immediate context shows no less than six uses of "pas/pantes". The range concludes pretty well that these words, translated "all", are not pervasive but can mean simply "generally, overall" or even "all kinds".

 

[Tri Unity]

I still don't understand. I read your response above and I hear nothing but someone talking in circles and I still ask, why?

God says we must believe on our lord, Jesus Christ but in the same breath told that we can't believe unless God wills us to believe therefore, telling us to believe is meaningless and pointless because it is not within our power or control to do so.

I was not offering an answer, I was elaborating on your question. Neither position has placed their answer into a context of God's overall intention. Neither proposition has tackled the big questions. Your own answer merely skims the surface and says nothing. Try addressing the bigger questions that give election and predestination a context.

 

[savedbygrace57]

ba

Again, I will use scripture, not my opinion.

You can quote all the scripture you want, still all you give is your opinion of what it means, which means nothing !

 

[Eventide]

the mind of Christ ?

You can quote all the scripture you want, still all you give is your opinion of what it means, which means nothing !

Have some parts of the body of CHRIST deluded themselves into believing that they have already somehow reached the fulness of the stature of our Lord Jesus Christ ?

How in the mind of Christ can statements as this be made when we're supposed to grow up together into the fulness of HIM..?

Some people imo are actually deluded into thinking that they have no more to grow in the grace and in the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord Jesus Christ.. the One who inhabits ETERNITY... and that they're above their own opinion concerning the infinitely limitless living and powerful word of God...

It's as if they believe that they can't possibly be wrong about the things of our Lord Jesus Christ.. the Father's only begotten Son who gave Himself without spot, or blemish.. fully into His Fathers will, even to the depths of that forsaken cross where we can't even begin to understand.. to reconcile us to His Father.

IT gets pretty scary in here at times..

 

[Danus]

Re: the mind of Christ ?

Have some parts of the body of CHRIST deluded themselves into believing that they have already somehow reached the fulness of the stature of our Lord Jesus Christ ?

How in the mind of Christ can statements as this be made when we're supposed to grow up together into the fulness of HIM..?

Some people imo are actually deluded into thinking that they have no more to grow in the grace and in the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord Jesus Christ.. the One who inhabits ETERNITY... and that they're above their own opinion concerning the infinitely limitless living and powerful word of God...

It's as if they believe that they can't possibly be wrong about the things of our Lord Jesus Christ.. the Father's only begotten Son who gave Himself without spot, or blemish.. fully into His Fathers will, even to the depths of that forsaken cross where we can't even begin to understand.. to reconcile us to His Father.

IT gets pretty scary in here at times..

I don't know if it get's scary, but it does get very ironic.

 

[Eventide]

Re: the mind of Christ ?

I don't know if it get's scary, but it does get very ironic.

I couldn't agree more Danus.. and I sincerely mean that.

 

[BornAgain]

ba



You can quote all the scripture you want, still all you give is your opinion of what it means, which means nothing !

Again, I did not use my opinion but quoted scripture. You have not provided scripture where you say reprobition is taught in the Bible. You cannot because God does not choose a specific group that are going to be saved and the rest are damned, or the "elect" as you state here and all of the other threads you have started.

 

[heymikey80]

Of course there is and there's no question that we are born again by GOD and not ourselves... after trusting in Christ, after hearing the gospel.. that's when we're sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Well, 1 John 5:1a for instance states that people with faith were born of God, not the other way around. (The tense of "born" in Greek is a past tense -- I believe specifically it's "perfect" tense, meaning it's already accomplished in the past. In English we tend to ignore the tense of "born", but it's there.)

Being sealed with the Holy Spirit is a different thing. For instance, if a woman bore you, that wouldn't mean the woman would continue to be your mother -- sealed into the family. They're two things. Sealing is something different, a sign on an adoption contract. Bearing is another, a bringing to life.

That in no way negates the truth that those who recieve Him are given power (BY GOD) to become the sons of God.

No, we do indeed receive God. But it does preclude that anyone born of God actually rejects Him.

"For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith." 1 John 5:4

 

[Eventide]

The seal of the righteousness of the faith...

Well, 1 John 5:1a for instance states that people with faith were born of God, not the other way around. (The tense of "born" in Greek is a past tense -- I believe specifically it's "perfect" tense, meaning it's already accomplished in the past. In English we tend to ignore the tense of "born", but it's there.)

What seals the deal for me so to speak is our ultimate example in Abraham and what he found pertaining to the flesh..

Abraham believed God and that was counted to him as righteousness.. it's not Abraham was counted righteous, and believed God.

THEN, after Abraham believed God, what happened..? God gave him the sign of the circumcision, which is a seal of the righteousness of faith.. the faith which Abraham had, before he was circumcised..

This is so vital imo.. and I can't understand why it needs to be turned on its side to say the opposite ?

Being sealed with the Holy Spirit is a different thing. For instance, if a woman bore you, that wouldn't mean the woman would continue to be your mother -- sealed into the family. They're two things. Sealing is something different, a sign on an adoption contract. Bearing is another, a bringing to life.

IMO it's clear that being SEALED with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, which is unto the DAY of REDEMPTION.. is the exact same thing as being baptized into HIS body by the miraculous power of the Spirit.. and we're declared RIGHTEOUS because we are IN CHRIST.

No, we do indeed receive God. But it does preclude that anyone born of God actually rejects Him.

I'm not following.. ? ?

"For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith." 1 John 5:4

And faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, or yet realized.. for example our vile body changed in the twinkling of an eye and fashioned like unto His glorious body... eternal life..

Faith, Hope, and Love.. because we're still on the road.. and we're certainly not home yet... even though it's as certain as being seated in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

The unsearchable riches in Christ..

 

[watchman333]

Some questions please. Do you have the love of God and the peace of Christ in you? Are you filled with Holy Spirit love from on high? Do you have a sincere desire to be pleasing to our Lord? Do you love our Father's word? Do you show compassion and mercy towrd your fellow man, judging no one? Do you have the knowledge that we are living in the end times? Are you willing to fight, and to die, for Jesus Christ? If you answered YES to those seven questions, then my quess is, you are one of our Father's elect.

 

[Eventide]

Mine Elect, in Whom My Soul Delighteth !

My guess is that we are the elect of God IN CHRIST.. and that we become the elect by virtue of being placed into Christ, the one (and only one) who is the elect of God...

God baptized us into that ONE BODY (the body of Christ), with the same Spirit of promise.. after we heard the truth, the gospel of our salvation, and after we believed.

Old things are passed away and all things have become new in Christ, our hope of glory.

Election in the first ADAM 0%
Election in the Last ADAM 100%

The Father loveth the Son and hath given all things into His Hand

 

[heymikey80]

Re: The seal of the righteousness of the faith...

What seals the deal for me so to speak is our ultimate example in Abraham and what he found pertaining to the flesh..

Abraham believed God and that was counted to him as righteousness.. it's not Abraham was counted righteous, and believed God.

That's right. But being born of God precedes faith in God.

Righteousness is by faith in God; but God isn't waiting around for us to become righteous to help us. If He did, nobody would make the grade.

IMO it's clear that being SEALED with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, which is unto the DAY of REDEMPTION.. is the exact same thing as being baptized into HIS body by the miraculous power of the Spirit.. and we're declared RIGHTEOUS because we are IN CHRIST.

But it's "born of God", not being baptized into His Body.

I'm not following.. ? ?

Everyone born of God overcomes the world. and yet everyone with faith has been born of God, too. So there's not a lot of wiggle room: people with faith receive Him.

So faith is the effect of being born of God, by the Spirit.

 

[Eventide]

Re: The seal of the righteousness of the faith...

So faith is the effect of being born of God, by the Spirit.

Simple disagreement here..

Faith is the effect of convicting evidence.. and that faith toward God justifies us before God and makes us righteous in Christ. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved.. it's clearly not whosoever shall be saved shall call upon the name of the LORD...

Simple as that imo.. and that's precisely what we're told.. that we're saved by grace through faith.. and even that is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God.. because without the power of the gospel of God's Son, there would obviously be no faith in Him.

And His grace is UNTO ALL and UPON ALL that believe.

 

[Tri Unity]

Re: The seal of the righteousness of the faith...

God isn't waiting around for us to become righteous to help us. If He did, nobody would make the grade.

We often interpret God's provisions as His favor and blessing; but this is not always the case. Judas believed he was favoured - for he was chosen - yet his chosen position was not for what he imagined. God also ordains governments (Romans 13:1); He elects them, yet this is not an election of grace. We have God's providence being exercised, and this is not always an election of grace.

When Jacob had 12 son's; do we imagine that this was by accident or by providence? Could he have had only 4 sons? and would Israel have consisted of only 4 states? and would there have been only 4 apostles? The number 12 was chosen of God. People, events and history have been elected to comply with God's providence. God's providence is predestined; and predestination is part of God's providence. To the extent that we freely align to the providence of God we are also predestined; and we are predestined according to the fact that God foreknew our free-will alignment. Free-will does not alter God's predestined providence in which He foreknew. The two operate in a symbiotic union. This is the problem with this argument; the proponents from each side argue one doctrine against the other doctrine; as though they are closed systems. They cannot fathom that both sides cooperate together toward the same end. This union exists within everything: soul and spirit; brain and mind; humanity and divinity (in Christology); 3 persons sharing the one essence; and so on. It is found within ourselves on every level; systems working independently yet toward the accomplishment of the whole; such as the digestive system; the nervous system; the sensory system; the cardiovascular system... It is never one or the other; it is all simultaneously. That is what makes God God. He is all powerful.

 

[savedbygrace57]

bornagain

Again, I did not use my opinion but quoted scripture.

You quote scripture, but you darken the counsel of it with your opinion, so its meaningless coming from such a source !