When Did The Church Begin?

[Anto9us2]

Remember that Jesus told Peter "upon this rock I WILL BUILD my church"

So efforts to find Christ's church in Abraham or Melchisedec have to be looked at in light of Jesus using FUTURE TENSE describing building the church.

Acts 2
Day of Pentecost

 

[WalterandDebbie]

There are different ideas about when the church began.
It's just interesting to hear what each one of us believes to be the case.

No links necessary.

As I was thinking of the OT and NT scriptures concerning the OP, my mind was on this event as to my answer:

Tradition holds that the first Gentile church was founded in Antioch, Acts 11:20-21, where it is recorded that the disciples of Jesus Christ were first called Christians Acts 11:19-26. It was from Antioch that St. Paul started on his missionary journeys.

 

[Anto9us2]

So we don't know when we got started, and don't know when we're gonna get harpadzoed... hmmm

The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch - I still think church began at Pentecost

 

[Anto9us2]

Face it. We are disagreed on when we began and when we leave.

 

[GodsGrace]

As I was thinking of the OT and NT scriptures concerning the OP, my mind was on this event as to my answer:

Tradition holds that the first Gentile church was founded in Antioch, Acts 11:20-21, where it is recorded that the disciples of Jesus Christ were first called Christians Acts 11:19-26. It was from Antioch that St. Paul started on his missionary journeys.

Hi W & D,
I did read the link....
It's interesting that you believe the church began at Antioch.
Could you please explain your personal reason for believing this?

Don't you think there was a church before Paul started his missionary journey? Could the disciples in Acts 2 have been the beginning of the church?

What is a church, anyway?

 

[Boaz]

I sometimes post the Early Church Fathers to show what the early Christians believed about our faith.
I'm told at times that they have no importance and their views of no value but only the bible has value.
The letters already existed and the gospel was known.

So my question would be:

When do YOU believe the church began?
I believe it began in Acts.

Yup. I believe that's when it began.

 

[Boaz]

Yup. I believe that's when it began.

Some of the Church fathers referred to Israel as being the church also because we "are adopted into Israel. Don't ask me who please, I have come across the reference of Israel as the church in my reading of the CF s, but don't recall who. In any case, I don't think that is what you were asking. So in Acts.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yup. I believe that's when it began.

Right.
Because I think the first disciples in Acts 2 were gathered together in Christ's name and were the first little church.
They were also the Body of Christ...Church with a capital C.

But I do believe they were also the first institutional church....
It was found that most probably new Christians met in Peter's house in Capernum.
His house was uncovered there in the recent past.

 

[GodsGrace]

Some of the Church fathers referred to Israel as being the church also because we "are adopted into Israel. Don't ask me who please, I have come across the reference of Israel as the church in my reading of the CF s, but don't recall who. In any case, I don't think that is what you were asking. So in Acts.

Right again.
I was referring to the CHRISTIAN church.
Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Boaz]

Right.
Because I think the first disciples in Acts 2 were gathered together in Christ's name and were the first little church.
They were also the Body of Christ...Church with a capital C.

But I do believe they were also the first institutional church....
It was found that most probably new Christians met in Peter's house in Capernum.
His house was uncovered there in the recent past.

Wow! I didn't know that about Peter's house being uncovered. Very interesting.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Hi W & D,
I did read the link....
It's interesting that you believe the church began at Antioch.
Could you please explain your personal reason for believing this?

Don't you think there was a church before Paul started his missionary journey? Could the disciples in Acts 2 have been the beginning of the church?

What is a church, anyway?

Hi wondering and all, my personal reason for believing that the Church began at Antioch, was when I noticed in John 20:19-25 (Christ Appears to the disciples) And when Christ Speaks to Peter John 21:15-23. The Conclusion of John's Gospel John 21: 24-25.

Outline of Acts:
Part One: The Witness in Jerusalem (1:1--8:4)

The Power of the Church 1:1--2:47 and on to:

Part Two: The Witness in Judaea and Samaria (8:5--12:25)

You asked: 1. Don't you think there was a church before Paul started his missionary journey? Yes, 2. Could the disciples in Acts 2 have been the beginning of the church? Yes from the scriptures outlined and more.

So then, can you see from the above readings that the Church started from: John 20:22, This is only my thoughts.

And you asked the question, What is a church, anyway?

According to the New Testament, the Church is a group of people called out by God. That is what the Greek word "ecclesia" means as it is used in 1 Corinthians and elsewhere. The Church is the Church of God. It is a Church belonging to the Lord.

Ecclesiology is the study of the church. The New Testament church began at Pentecost in Acts 2. This is often referred to as the Church Age. The definition for a church is a group that meets regularly (Hebrews 10:24-25) under organized leadership (Hebrews 13:17-18) and practices the purposes that are seen in the early church in Acts 2:42-47.

There are many different churches out there today with all kinds of different practices. The Bible gives many words about the church and things that need to be part of a church according to Scripture. Whenever we look at words about the church in the New Testament we need to be careful in our evaluation. What I mean by this is that there are 2 types of passages about the church. The first is when the church is described in “prescriptive terms.”

This means that these are things that God says need to be part of the church. Baptism and observance of the Lord’s Supper would fall into this category. The second type of passages are “descriptive” passages about the church. These are passages that merely describe what the church did but we are not necessarily commanded to do the same. Cultural passages such as women wearing head coverings would fall into this category. It is important that we understand what God teaches us about the church so that we (the people) can “be” the church.

Acts 1:41-42 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Love always, Walter and Deborah

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering and all, my personal reason for believing that the Church began at Antioch, was when I noticed in John 20:19-25 (Christ Appears to the disciples) And when Christ Speaks to Peter John 21:15-23. The Conclusion of John's Gospel John 21: 24-25.

Outline of Acts:
Part One: The Witness in Jerusalem (1:1--8:4)

The Power of the Church 1:1--2:47 and on to:

Part Two: The Witness in Judaea and Samaria (8:5--12:25)

You asked: 1. Don't you think there was a church before Paul started his missionary journey? Yes, 2. Could the disciples in Acts 2 have been the beginning of the church? Yes from the scriptures outlined and more.

So then, can you see from the above readings that the Church started from: John 20:22, This is only my thoughts.

And you asked the question, What is a church, anyway?

According to the New Testament, the Church is a group of people called out by God. That is what the Greek word "ecclesia" means as it is used in 1 Corinthians and elsewhere. The Church is the Church of God. It is a Church belonging to the Lord.

Ecclesiology is the study of the church. The New Testament church began at Pentecost in Acts 2. This is often referred to as the Church Age. The definition for a church is a group that meets regularly (Hebrews 10:24-25) under organized leadership (Hebrews 13:17-18) and practices the purposes that are seen in the early church in Acts 2:42-47.

There are many different churches out there today with all kinds of different practices. The Bible gives many words about the church and things that need to be part of a church according to Scripture. Whenever we look at words about the church in the New Testament we need to be careful in our evaluation. What I mean by this is that there are 2 types of passages about the church. The first is when the church is described in “prescriptive terms.”

This means that these are things that God says need to be part of the church. Baptism and observance of the Lord’s Supper would fall into this category. The second type of passages are “descriptive” passages about the church. These are passages that merely describe what the church did but we are not necessarily commanded to do the same. Cultural passages such as women wearing head coverings would fall into this category. It is important that we understand what God teaches us about the church so that we (the people) can “be” the church.

Acts 1:41-42 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Love always, Walter and Deborah

Great post!

The only thought I'd like to add is that the church is supposed to evangelize and bring souls to God.

Also, regarding prescriptive and descriptive...I have heard these terms before but am only now beginning to have a real understanding of them. You've helped.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Great post!

The only thought I'd like to add is that the church is supposed to evangelize and bring souls to God.

Also, regarding prescriptive and descriptive...I have heard these terms before but am only now beginning to have a real understanding of them. You've helped.

Acts 2:42 42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

 

[JLB]

When speaking of the church, it's mostly understood to be the church of Christ...

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.
Genesis 17:1-4


The Lord who made covenant with Abraham is Christ.


Paul explains it this way, distinguishing between the covenant with Abraham and the law of Moses that was added later -

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:17-19


Key Phrase:

the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ.


Abraham walked in obedience to Christ, and His covenant, because he had His Spirit within him.


Peter says it this way -

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:10-11

• the Spirit of Christ who was in them

Abraham declared by God as a prophet -


And God said to him in a dream, “Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. Now therefore, restore the man’s wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.” Genesis 20:6-7


We are Christians, that is to say, those who are in covenant with Christ, because His Spirit dwells in us.

• if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 8:9-11


We are declared to be sons of Abraham, through faith in Christ.


That’s why I say, church began with Abraham, who by the way, had paradise “nick named” after him.



JLB

 

[JLB]

When would YOU say that began?

I know I didn’t answer you question in the last post, because I wanted to clarify my position with scripture.

The Lord breathed on the them and said receive the Holy Spirit.

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
John 20:21-23


However, I would think that they would have to have been “born again” or as some say, “born from above”, first before receiving the Holy Spirit.


So that brings us to when is a person born again?




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.
Genesis 17:1-4


The Lord who made covenant with Abraham is Christ.


Paul explains it this way, distinguishing between the covenant with Abraham and the law of Moses that was added later -

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:17-19


Key Phrase:

the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ.


Abraham walked in obedience to Christ, and His covenant, because he had His Spirit within him.


Peter says it this way -

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:10-11

• the Spirit of Christ who was in them

Abraham declared by God as a prophet -


And God said to him in a dream, “Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. Now therefore, restore the man’s wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.” Genesis 20:6-7


We are Christians, that is to say, those who are in covenant with Christ, because His Spirit dwells in us.

• if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 8:9-11


We are declared to be sons of Abraham, through faith in Christ.


That’s why I say, church began with Abraham, who by the way, had paradise “nick named” after him.



JLB

Your thoughts are always so deep!

Of course, you're right.

When I was a new Christian I believed the O.T. spoke ONLY of God Father. BUT...since God Father was never seen by man, and could NOT be seen because he is spirit and "lives" outside of time...it had to be through Jesus, or should we say the Son of God, that entered into time.

Abraham was indeed made the Father of many nations...this is the New Covenant, which was promised to Abraham.

I'm not disagreeing with you.

But by church, I mean those buildings we have today where ONLY Christians, and not Jews, go to worship on Saturday or Sunday and gather for prayers and bible study, etc.

The Christian church has become separated from the Jewish church...and it would be the Christian church I'm speaking of.
Jesus meant to change the Jewish church...but found a new one would be established instead. HE is the vine...we are the branches.

When do you believe THIS church began?
Or do you believe a new church was not established after Jesus ascended?

 

[JLB]

I know I didn’t answer you question in the last post, because I wanted to clarify my position with scripture.

The Lord breathed on the them and said receive the Holy Spirit.

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
John 20:21-23


However, I would think that they would have to have been “born again” or as some say, “born from above”, first before receiving the Holy Spirit.


So that brings us to when is a person born again?




JLB

I thought we could discuss the words and scriptures, surrounding the concept of being born again, born from above, born of the Spirit, born of God, to see if we can narrow down some things.


In addition there are other biblical words and phrases associated with being born again, such as justified.


If we are wanting to know when the Church began, then we are asking when did someone first become born again.


What do you think?



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I know I didn’t answer you question in the last post, because I wanted to clarify my position with scripture.

The Lord breathed on the them and said receive the Holy Spirit.

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
John 20:21-23


However, I would think that they would have to have been “born again” or as some say, “born from above”, first before receiving the Holy Spirit.


So that brings us to when is a person born again?




JLB

You're speaking of the Church.
I'm speaking of the church...small c.

This post has nothing to do with being born again.
Not everyone in a church is born again.

This was true at the beginning of the new Christian church....but is no longer true today.

The first Christians paid with their life for their belief in Christ.
Today many sit in pews and don't even know what they're doing there.

 

[GodsGrace]

I thought we could discuss the words and scriptures, surrounding the concept of being born again, born from above, born of the Spirit, born of God, to see if we can narrow down some things.


In addition there are other biblical words and phrases associated with being born again, such as justified.


If we are wanting to know when the Church began, then we are asking when did someone first become born again.


What do you think?



JLB

Start a new thread?
I think it's a good idea.

 

[JLB]

But by church, I mean those buildings we have today where ONLY Christians, and not Jews, go to worship on Saturday or Sunday and gather for prayers and bible study, etc.

The Christian church has become separated from the Jewish church...and it would be the Christian church I'm speaking of.
Jesus meant to change the Jewish church...but found a new one would be established instead. HE is the vine...we are the branches.

You opened a big can of worms with that statement.


The Church is Jewish.

What we define as Jewish, may differ, but make no mistake, you and must have The Jew, dwelling within us, to be Christian.


For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Romans 2:28-29



It’s interesting to note, that Abraham is the father of the Jews, but he himself was a Gentile.




JLB