When Did The Church Begin?

[JLB]

Start a new thread?
I think it's a good idea.

You'll have to start it.

We know what happens to my threads, that I start.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You opened a big can of worms with that statement.


The Church is Jewish.

What we define as Jewish, may differ, but make no mistake, you and must have The Jew, dwelling within us, to be Christian.


For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Romans 2:28-29



It’s interesting to note, that Abraham is the father of the Jews, but he himself was a Gentile.




JLB

Then why don't we all go to the same church?

There was, in fact, only one church after Jesus' ascension.
But that changed after 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed.
The Christian Jews were no longer accepted by the Jews and they were forced to leave their brethren and begin their own church.

I have no scripture for this but it is history.

 

[JLB]

When do you believe THIS church began?
Or do you believe a new church was not established after Jesus ascended?

I guess I don’t know what you mean by “the church”.

I thought I did, but maybe I don’t.



Church = The Holy nation of God, the Congregation of Jesus Christ, the called out ones; The Israel of God


church = a building where people go to gather and worship the Lord, and teach and preach.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Then why don't we all go to the same church?

There is no such concept in the Bible as “going to church”.

That has become a man made concept.

We are the Church.

Ever see Jesus say, hey everybody, it’s Sunday morning, come and follow Me to church.


People functioned as the Church and identified as family, in which they met in homes, or caves or wherever.


The Lord see’s one Church in each city.


Not a bunch of fractured denominations.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I guess I don’t know what you mean by “the church”.

I thought I did, but maybe I don’t.



Church = The Holy nation of God, the Congregation of Jesus Christ, the called out ones; The Israel of God


church = a building where people go to gather and worship the Lord, and teach and preach.





JLB

Right...
I mean the church with the little c.

As highlighted above by me...you said:

church = a building where people go to gather and worship the Lord, and teach and preach.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no such concept in the Bible as “going to church”.

That has become a man made concept.

We are the Church.

Ever see Jesus say, hey everybody, it’s Sunday morning, come and follow Me to church.


People functioned as the Church and identified as family, in which they met in homes, or caves or wherever.


The Lord see’s one Church in each city.


Not a bunch of fractured denominations.



JLB

LOL
Forget about what Jesus sees.

Peter's house was a church.
Hebrews 10 speaks of a church.
Where we DO gather together is a church.
(you explained it in your previous post).

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Then why don't we all go to the same church?

There was, in fact, only one church after Jesus' ascension.
But that changed after 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed.
The Christian Jews were no longer accepted by the Jews and they were forced to leave their brethren and begin their own church.

I have no scripture for this but it is history.

Hi wondering, I don't know your name, but, how are you all doing ? I was hearing you asking, Then why don't we all go to the same church? well for number 1, I thought that when I did not know any better, that I choose to enjoy whatever I was familiar with in what that Pastor had believed or taught, until I saw it in a different out-look, this is when I was younger going to church.

But as I learned much later of the scriptures and by my asking the Lord to show me what this or that really meant in understanding exactly how to live right, I guess I had to follow his steps as He have left us an example.

Galatians 6:16

Love always, Walter and Deborah

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering, I don't know your name, but, how are you all doing ? I was hearing you asking, Then why don't we all go to the same church? well for number 1, I thought that when I did not know any better, that I choose to enjoy whatever I was familiar with in what that Pastor had believed or taught, until I saw it in a different out-look, this is when I was younger going to church.

But as I learned much later of the scriptures and by my asking the Lord to show me what this or that really meant in understanding exactly how to live right, I guess I had to follow his steps as He have left us an example.

Galatians 6:16

Love always, Walter and Deborah

Hi W & D....
all is OK.

I must admit that it's difficult for me to trust any pastor.
Since I grew up in the Catholic church, I had to make sure about their doctrine (after I was saved) and then I had to look for a church. So I tend to check everything out with my understanding of God's nature and what He expects from us.

Some say God expects nothing from us...but I don't see this in the N.T. So I agree with you that we have to "live right"...at least to the best of our ability with the help of the Holy Spirit.
I like John 15.....
We cannot do anything without HIM.
HE is the vine...we are the branches that receive food from the vine.

 

[Edward]

I sometimes post the Early Church Fathers to show what the early Christians believed about our faith.
I'm told at times that they have no importance and their views of no value but only the bible has value.
The letters already existed and the gospel was known.

So my question would be:

When do YOU believe the church began?
I believe it began in Acts.

I agree, it started in Acts. Actually, I could prolly make a decent case for it starting in the Garden of Gethsemane because He essentially sent them out on their own from there...but yes, Acts was the Church going on it's own for the first time after Jesus ascended.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree, it started in Acts. Actually, I could prolly make a decent case for it starting in the Garden of Gethsemane because He essentially sent them out on their own from there...but yes, Acts was the Church going on it's own for the first time after Jesus ascended.

Ed, I wonder what you mean by the Garden of Gethsemane...the night before the passion? That would be interesting to hear,,,I never have before.

The Apostles were a mess...fearful and hiding. Peter even denied knowing Jesus out of fear.

Is this when you mean?

 

[OzSpen]

Interesting.
I've never heard this before.
But, yes, of course Ecclesia means the called out ones.

When speaking of the church, it's mostly understood to be the church of Christ...the institutional church that grew after Jesus' ascension.

When would YOU say that began?

I waiver between the Last Supper and the Acts in chapter 2 when the Disciples receive the power of the Holy Spirit and begin to preach.

wondering,

D A Carson has written an article on this issue in which he states:

'So what do the two camps—those who think the church began at Pentecost, and those who think the church stretches back in time and ultimately includes all of God’s elect—make of such exegetical phenomena? Transparently, different interpretive choices are tied up with each position' (When Did the Church Begin?)​

Oz

 

[Edward]

Ed, I wonder what you mean by the Garden of Gethsemane...the night before the passion? That would be interesting to hear,,,I never have before.

The Apostles were a mess...fearful and hiding. Peter even denied knowing Jesus out of fear.

Is this when you mean?

Well it was all about to come down and that was the last time before the crucifixion that they were all together. And Jesus knew it was coming and time was at hand. So they prolly talked more than was recorded. And Jesus asked them to pray and watch with him, and it's like they couldn't or whatever.

It all turned out ok, from today's perspective, but it was like, the last pep talk before they were out on their own so to speak, without Jesus. So it kind of sort of began that night, right?

 

[Anto9us2]

I don't think the Church began that night, but I'm just sharing - God forbid that I would try to TEACH.

Jesus told the guys NOT TO DO ANYTHING til the Holy Spirit came.
On Pentecost, it came. The Church started, the church that Jesus said
I WILL BUILD ( future TENSE ) during His life before resurrection.

If I wanted to TEACH on c.f.net - what would be the CREDENTIALS? Would there be a test?

Gosh, I hope we could get the test over with soon, I'm 66 and my once-steel-trap mind is rusting out, memory worse and worse every day...

What was I talking about?

Oh yeah TEACHING

 

[JLB]

wondering,

D A Carson has written an article on this issue in which he states:

'So what do the two camps—those who think the church began at Pentecost, and those who think the church stretches back in time and ultimately includes all of God’s elect—make of such exegetical phenomena? Transparently, different interpretive choices are tied up with each position' (When Did the Church Begin?)​

Oz

I guess defining what the Church is and what it means from the scriptures would be a good place to start.

When do you believe the Church began?


JLB

 

[Anto9us2]

Would anyone agree that if Jesus said He would build something - future tense -
then what was to be built did not yet exist at the moment He said that?

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Hi W & D....
all is OK.

I must admit that it's difficult for me to trust any pastor.
Since I grew up in the Catholic church, I had to make sure about their doctrine (after I was saved) and then I had to look for a church. So I tend to check everything out with my understanding of God's nature and what He expects from us.

Some say God expects nothing from us...but I don't see this in the N.T. So I agree with you that we have to "live right"...at least to the best of our ability with the help of the Holy Spirit.
I like John 15.....
We cannot do anything without HIM.
HE is the vine...we are the branches that receive food from the vine.

yeah!

 

[OzSpen]

I guess defining what the Church is and what it means from the scriptures would be a good place to start.

When do you believe the Church began?

JLB

JLB,

Don Carson did that from the Scriptures. Didn't you read the content of the link? Part of what he wrote was:

When Jesus declares, in a thoroughly Jewish context, that he will build his church (ἐκκλησία, Matt 16:18), what he has in mind, according to this Gospel, includes Gentiles too (28:18–20). His instructions on how to exercise church [ἐκκλησία] discipline (18:15–20) show how he is willing to blur distinctions we tend to make: the local church (which must be in view in ch. 18) is the outcropping of the entire church (ch. 16), and clearly includes both Jews and Gentiles. They constitute Messiah’s assembly (When Did the Church Begin?)​

There are too many issues for me to give a simplistic answer.

What I believe about when the church began is subjective and is not based on biblical statements.

However, my conclusion is that while Jesus was on earth he gave indicators of the start of the church that includes both Jews and Gentiles. The evidence points to an 'official' launching of the church in Acts 2:17-21.

Oz

 

[JLB]

JLB,

Don Carson did that from the Scriptures. Didn't you read the content of the link? Part of what he wrote was:

When Jesus declares, in a thoroughly Jewish context, that he will build his church (ἐκκλησία, Matt 16:18), what he has in mind, according to this Gospel, includes Gentiles too (28:18–20). His instructions on how to exercise church [ἐκκλησία] discipline (18:15–20) show how he is willing to blur distinctions we tend to make: the local church (which must be in view in ch. 18) is the outcropping of the entire church (ch. 16), and clearly includes both Jews and Gentiles. They constitute Messiah’s assembly (When Did the Church Begin?)​

There are too many issues for me to give a simplistic answer.

What I believe about when the church began is subjective and is not based on biblical statements.

However, my conclusion is that while Jesus was on earth he gave indicators of the start of the church that includes both Jews and Gentiles. The evidence points to an 'official' launching of the church in Acts 2:17-21.

Oz

Thanks for your response.

However simplistic or subjective your answer, I was hoping to hear what you thought, from the scriptures and not necessarily from another person’s writings.


‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’
Acts 2:17-21


This quote from Joel, indicates the name of YHWH is to be called on in order to be saved, which refers to Jesus being YHWH, as Paul also writes...


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Romans 10:9-13


I see this calling on the name of the Lord to be saved occurring before Pentecost.


Here is a scene after the resurrection-


Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:14-15


Also, John’s version of that event -


Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” John 20:19-23


Here after the resurrection they received the Holy Spirt, and were commissioned, and had been baptized (assumed) as well as they had baptized others.


What more in your opinion would need to have been done to be qualified as part of the Church?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Would anyone agree that if Jesus said He would build something - future tense -
then what was to be built did not yet exist at the moment He said that?

“I will build” is actually rendered as one word in the original and is unique in its meaning.


And G1161 I say G3004 also G2504 unto thee, G4671 That G3754thou G4771 art G1488 Peter, G4074 and G2532 upon G1909 this G5026 rock G4073 I will build G3618 my G3450 church; G1577 and G2532 the gates G4439 of hell G86 shall G2729 ➔not G3756 prevail against G2729 it.

Strongs G 3618 - oikodomeō


The KJV translates Strong's G3618 in the following manner: build (24x), edify (7x), builder (5x), build up (1x), be in building (1x), embolden (1x).

1. to build a house, erect a building
   1. to build (up from the foundation)
   2. to restore by building, to rebuild, repair
2. metaph.
   1. to found, establish
   2. to promote growth in Christian wisdom, affection, grace, virtue, holiness, blessedness
   3. to grow in wisdom and piety

Root Word (Etymology)
From the same as οἰκοδομή (G3619)

Strongs G 3619 - oikodomē

The KJV translates Strong's G3619 in the following manner: edifying (7x), building (6x), edification (4x), wherewith (one) may edify (1x).

(the act of) building, building up

1. metaph. edifying, edification
   1. the act of one who promotes another's growth in Christian wisdom, piety, happiness, holiness
2. a building (i.e. the thing built, edifice)

THE POINT:

“I will build” doesn’t necessarily, in and of itself, mean that which is intended to be built, has already begun.


This phrase can just as easily be rendered:

I am building my house
I am continuing to build and repair my house


For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:4-6


What is it that connects us to Christ, so that we are joined and are a part of His house?

• if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9


We (Gentiles) are grafted into the natural olive tree, and supported by the root.

The root certainly comes first and supports the branches.

• And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Romans 11:13-2


For we are built upon the foundation of Apostles and Prophets.


The prophets had the Spirit of Christ in them.





JLB

 

[Anto9us2]

So, "I WILL BUILD"
is a MISTRANSLATION?

What's DRIVIING this notion that the Church began a long time ago, A long time before Pentecost?

What's the bee in the bonnet that makes people think like this?

Pentecost was important enough for Jesus to tell the disciples JUST WAIT, like, don't do anything until the Holy Spirit comes.

Some other theology is driving this compulsion to see the Church already in existence before Pentecost, I am just trying to figure out what it is.