When did the law actually end?

[Ashua]

Ashua, I agree with you that not all of it is void, only the ritual aspects. Do you agree with my post here about the law?

Mostly. I still think scriptures such as Zechariah 14 make it clear that the "ceremonial law" will be institutionalized in the New heaven complete with the High Holy days and sacrifices. Our knowledge of God's plan ends at the establishment of New Jerusalem in Revelation. Beyond that the ordinances of God are not given to us yet. The righteous saints who attain to salvation through Christ will in all probability do the Laws ordained in the New Jerusalem in a ready spirit of gladness --not legalistic but desire. "A Law written in their hearts."

The nations which reject God such as Egypt mentioned in Zechariah 14 will probably be "under the Law" in the age of the New Jerusalem BECAUSE they rejected salvation by grace in Christ when it was offered to them. This is just inference I cannot be sure, but wouldnt that be something? The nations of the earth which survive the final great battle will be UNDER the law because they rejected grace. I wonder if that is how it will play out. How exciting.

 

[cyberjosh]

Mostly. I still think scriptures such as Zechariah 14 make it clear that the "ceremonial law" will be institutionalized in the New heaven complete with the High Holy days and sacrifices. Our knowledge of God's plan ends at the establishment of New Jerusalem in Revelation. Beyond that the ordinances of God are not given to us yet. The righteous saints who attain to salvation through Christ will in all probability do the Laws ordained in the New Jerusalem in a ready spirit of gladness --not legalistic but desire. "A Law written in their hearts."

The nations which reject God such as Egypt mentioned in Zechariah 14 will probably be "under the Law" in the age of the New Jerusalem BECAUSE they rejected salvation by grace in Christ when it was offered to them. This is just inference I cannot be sure, but wouldnt that be something? The nations of the earth which survive the final great battle will be UNDER the law because they rejected grace. I wonder if that is how it will play out. How exciting.

That is possible as an eschatalogical consideration, however it would be clearly "reinstated" or declared at some point by God (letting people know) as being binding on those particulars at that time. It wouldn't be a "you are already bound by it" and "already supposed to know" thing, since it is not currently required under the new covenant. Else we would be given instructions for preparation presently. But eschatology is a big subject in itself.

 

[theLords]

The nations which reject God such as Egypt mentioned in Zechariah 14 will probably be "under the Law" in the age of the New Jerusalem BECAUSE they rejected salvation by grace in Christ when it was offered to them. This is just inference I cannot be sure, but wouldnt that be something? The nations of the earth which survive the final great battle will be UNDER the law because they rejected grace. I wonder if that is how it will play out. How exciting.

I know that you said this is just inference, but would you mind elaborating? This sounds very intriguing.

 

[Nathan]

hey Josh....Good to have you back in on the discussions. you bring a good mind and spirit to these discussions. Hopefully we have answered the OP question by now.

 

[Nathan]

That is possible as an eschatalogical consideration, however it would be clearly "reinstated" or declared at some point by God (letting people know) as being binding on those particulars at that time. It wouldn't be a "you are already bound by it" and "already supposed to know" thing, since it is not currently required under the new covenant. Else we would be given instructions for preparation presently. But eschatology is a big subject in itself.

Very wise. :yes

 

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Ashua
The nations which reject God such as Egypt mentioned in Zechariah 14 will probably be "under the Law" in the age of the New Jerusalem BECAUSE they rejected salvation by grace in Christ when it was offered to them. This is just inference I cannot be sure, but wouldnt that be something? The nations of the earth which survive the final great battle will be UNDER the law because they rejected grace. I wonder if that is how it will play out. How exciting.

I know that you said this is just inference, but would you mind elaborating? This sounds very intriguing.

X2 :yes

 

[Sinthesis]

Eschatology aside, the Law ended with the judgment of the society which had so perverted it back in 70AD.:shocked!

The Law was a tool used by God to set apart from the rest of the world a people for Himself, through which Messiah would come to redeem the world from sin. It was a cultural identifier. "Who are those people? They are the people who follow the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob!" One could follow the Law outwardly and be righteous on the surface, as Saul/Paul had once been proud of his adherence to the Law. The mistake was to believe that any mere man could follow the Law inwardly, which is the standard which it's ultimate fulfillment demanded. As such the Law was ineffectual for salvation beyond being a cultural marker for the people through whom the promised Instrument of Salvation would come. Ever since the finished work of Christ, the new identifier for being one of God's People is not simply outward adherence to a Law which itself can be so legally twisted as to be meaningless hypocrisy, but submission to and faith in God, resulting in behavior consistent with the Spirit of God.

 

[Ashua]

I know that you said this is just inference, but would you mind elaborating? This sounds very intriguing.

I'm not quite sure how you would like me to elaborate on this.

The context of Zechariah 12-14 is in the future and seems to parallel the timing of the book of Revelation. Zechariah ends after the battle is over and the nations which come against Jerusalem are destroyed. (The manner of this plague is very graphic in the text and if you read it sounds something like what would happen to a body in a nuclear blast --not saying God will use nuclear means to his end, but the details sound similar -- eyes rotting in their holes and tongues consuming away in the mouth and flesh melting off before a person hits the ground...)

Anyways, reading this future prophesy suggests one of two possibilities that I am able to think of:

1. The Law was never formally ended in the sense that Paul in his epistles and Jesus in Matthew say the aim wasn't to end the Law but to redeem us from the CURSE of the law.

Not the LAW itself, but the CURSE (which is attributed to) the Law.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree: -Galatians 3:13

The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honorable. -Isaiah 42:41

Or the second way to look at it is that as they have said -- The law will be re-institutionalized in the millennial kingdom.

Regardless of these two scenarios, the scriptures say the ceremonial law will be enforced in the future. I think this may be in part due to the just response of God in that those who rejected grace and leaned on their own righteousness so called... God will make them eat their words. You rejected grace so now you will live under Law.

Those who live by the law will die by the law.
Those who operate under grace within or without law will be upheld by Grace.

 

[Ashua]

elaborating further:

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;


In that I command thee this day to love YHVH thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and YHVH thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live:"

That thou mayest love YHVH thy ELOHIYM, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which YHVH sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.-Deuteronomy 30:15-20

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
-Galatians 3:13-14

So The LAW offers a double edged sword package to us:

1.

On one hand we have the offer of Life and Blessing for keeping the Law.

On the other hand, we are offered death and cursings for breaking the Law.

2.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law. His atonement delivers us from death which comes by transgression of the Law.

So if you "cancel out" the equation according to the work of Christ...

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live:" -Deuteronomy 30:19

Sense the curse of the Law which is death (wages of sin) are "mathematically canceled out" of the equation by Christ, the equation now looks like this in its simplified form under the covenant of grace.

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life, and blessing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live:" -Deuteronomy 30:19

This is what I believe the scriptures mean by redemption from the curse of the Law.

Now that the curse is taken away, the only residue that remains is blessings. The Law may have lost it bite, but it still contains its promised blessings.

Rewards in Heaven are not commissioned by grace. He who keeps the word of the LORD and teaches others to will be called great in the Kingdom that is to come, but he who breaks and and teaches others to break will be called least.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Never -

The LAW is eternal, and is just as "in effect" today as it was in 2000 B.C. If one chooses to be a "Law keeper" in order to "earn" his salvation before that Lord, then all he has to do is keep every aspect of it PERFECTLY without slipping - for his entire life - because if he EVER "offends in one point" - he's guilty of ALL. SO the law is certainly there for anybody who desires to be cursed by breaking it.

The Christian, however, being DEAD (crucified with Christ) to the law - is no longer effected by the law - which has already exacted it's penalty on him.

The LAW never changed - we did. Christians "die to themselves", and are raised in Newness of life - with Jesus' life in the Spirit.

That's all in the first 8 chapters of Romans - which gives the "Nuts and Bolts" of salvation in great detail.

 

[Ashua]

Re: Never -

The LAW is eternal, and is just as "in effect" today as it was in 2000 B.C. If one chooses to be a "Law keeper" in order to "earn" his salvation before that Lord, then all he has to do is keep every aspect of it PERFECTLY without slipping - for his entire life - because if he EVER "offends in one point" - he's guilty of ALL. SO the law is certainly there for anybody who desires to be cursed by breaking it.

The Christian, however, being DEAD (crucified with Christ) to the law - is no longer effected by the law - which has already exacted it's penalty on him.

The LAW never changed - we did. Christians "die to themselves", and are raised in Newness of life - with Jesus' life in the Spirit.

That's all in the first 8 chapters of Romans - which gives the "Nuts and Bolts" of salvation in great detail.

Thanks. That's all I was saying. The law still contains its blessings though. But you pretty much said what I was trying to.

 

[Ashua]

Another thing I purposed to post but was distracted from:

The first several verses really shine in brilliant allegory with the whole theme of the Cross. I am wholly convinced that no one could identify and make this exegesis as Paul did apart from the Holy Spirit: As so many of you have also recognized.

Romans 7

1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Drew]

Just because you are not under the law (but under Grace) doesn't mean the law is void though. the Romans verse I posted says as much.

As Galatians says, the Covenant made to Abraham cannot be disannuled by the law which came some 430 years later.

I think you are making a generalization on shaky ground. Yes, the covenant is not anulled by the introduction of the law. But that is not grounds for arguing that God cannot, at some point in history, decide that the time of "law" has come to an end. You are over-reaching here - seeing a general principle of immutablity here, when all Paul has said is that the introduction of the Law of Moses does not put the covenant to an end.

And this is what I believe the Scriptures teach - at the cross, the Law of Moses is "retired" or "abolished". Remember - the Law of Moses was a written code that was for Jews only. Paul is quite clear - the Law of Moses has been retired.

Is it okay for a Christian to kill or to lust or to take the name of God in vain or to dishonor his parents? If not, then the law is still in effect --just not to the end of salvation.

I see this argument all the time, but it is simply not correct.

The problem is an implicit assumption that if there is no "law" against, say, lust, this necessitates that lust is OK. This is clearly not true - we do not need written law to prescribe behaviour. In fact, Paul makes it clear that it is the indwelling Spirit that functions to prescribe behaviour, not law.

So the argument that "law" must still be in force since we all agree with the 10 commandments does not work.

 

[Drew]

Eschatology aside, the Law ended with the judgment of the society which had so perverted it back in 70AD.:shocked!

The Law was a tool used by God to set apart from the rest of the world a people for Himself, through which Messiah would come to redeem the world from sin. It was a cultural identifier. "Who are those people? They are the people who follow the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob!" One could follow the Law outwardly and be righteous on the surface, as Saul/Paul had once been proud of his adherence to the Law. The mistake was to believe that any mere man could follow the Law inwardly, which is the standard which it's ultimate fulfillment demanded. As such the Law was ineffectual for salvation beyond being a cultural marker for the people through whom the promised Instrument of Salvation would come. Ever since the finished work of Christ, the new identifier for being one of God's People is not simply outward adherence to a Law which itself can be so legally twisted as to be meaningless hypocrisy, but submission to and faith in God, resulting in behavior consistent with the Spirit of God.

Agree entirely with everything in this post.

I think one key issue here is how the law of Moses functioned as a culture marker. I suggest that this is a key insight. And as we see in Ephesians 2, the abolition of the Law of Moses is tied specifically to a breaking down of a barrier that divided the world into "Jew" and "Gentile".

And it is precisely because the Law of Moses has been retired that its function as an ethnic delimiter has come to an end.

 

[theLords]

Wow, Ashua that explanation was great. How exciting!

Would you go so far as to say that only those who are under the Law of Grace will be those who rule with Christ?

I've never heard anyone explain the curse of the Law in such a manner! I think I'll be "borrowing" it when talking to unbelievers who are seeking the faith.

It's also neat to see the Lord teaches you "mathmatically." He teaches me that way too! Awesome isn't it? :D I may hate educational math, but boy do I love Godly math!

 

[craigmn3]

The law was completed when Jesus said "it is finished" every jot and tittle had been completed, yet it did not go away, we who accept the grace of Jesus Christ simply are not subject to it anylonger

Romans 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,


Now we serve the new commandments...of love

 

[Ashua]

Wow, Ashua that explanation was great. How exciting!

Would you go so far as to say that only those who are under the Law of Grace will be those who rule with Christ?

I've never heard anyone explain the curse of the Law in such a manner! I think I'll be "borrowing" it when talking to unbelievers who are seeking the faith.

It's also neat to see the Lord teaches you "mathmatically." He teaches me that way too! Awesome isn't it? :D I may hate educational math, but boy do I love Godly math!

Yes and no. Yes because people from every age and dispensation stand by faith alone. Noah Abraham Moses David.... All of those who live "under the law" so called will stand on the day of judgment because they were under the law of Grace and redeemed by the propitiation of Christ. So, really, whether or not a saint was from the days before Christ or after him, everyone who is saved is saved by Grace from Moses on down.

No in the sense that if you are asking that if only (exclusively) those from the Church age will reign alongside Christ, I assure you the Old Testament saints will too.

 

[barelohim]

"The wages of sin is death!" Since Adam sinned, death came to all men!

The condemnation, {sentence of death} has been carried out for all that were in Adam, because of the one act of righteousness of the second, or last Adam. The Cross demonstrates the righteousness of God...

Keeping the Law of Moses did not nullify the sentence of death upon all.

All, from adam, until the death of Christ, ended up in one place.....death!

It was Christ who died, and went down into death, and set at liberty all who were held in that prison. " So He is The God of the living and the dead! "

All mankind was in Adam, and suffered the consequences of his act. God has placed all mankind in the Last Adam, so one act of righteousness, causes all in Him to be made righteous. But the gift is not likened to the first. In the first adam we had no choice. In the last Adam, we have choice to accept or reject this gift.
{Notice that Levi, was in the loins of Abraham, but was seen by God as paying tithes.}
Hebrews 7:[SIZE=+1]8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

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Bar.
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[Ashua]

I think you are making a generalization on shaky ground. Yes, the covenant is not anulled by the introduction of the law. But that is not grounds for arguing that God cannot, at some point in history, decide that the time of "law" has come to an end. You are over-reaching here - seeing a general principle of immutablity here, when all Paul has said is that the introduction of the Law of Moses does not put the covenant to an end.

And this is what I believe the Scriptures teach - at the cross, the Law of Moses is "retired" or "abolished". Remember - the Law of Moses was a written code that was for Jews only. Paul is quite clear - the Law of Moses has been retired.

Am I overreaching?
Am I presuming what is not already written?

Romans 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Remember this is Olde English and a translation.

The Greek word Telos means goal, accomplishment, intent, purpose, fulfillment.

Christ is the accomplished goal of the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS for everyone that believeth. He is not the end of the Law itself, but the accomplisher of our righteousness Aka. "Imputed righteousness". To them who do NOT believe.. they are "under the Law" in EVERY meaning of the term.

Matthew 7:23" And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Psalm 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word [which] he commanded to a thousand generations.

2 Kings 17:37 And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which He wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

Deuteronomy 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore His statutes, and His commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong [thy] days upon the earth, which the LORD thy G-d giveth thee, for ever.

Psalm 111:2 The works of the LORD [are] great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein. [3] His work [is] honorable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever. [4] He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD [is] gracious and full of compassion. [5] He hath given meat unto them that fear him: He will ever be mindful of His covenant. [6] He hath shewed his people the power of his works, that He may give them the heritage of the heathen. [7] The works of his hands [are] verity and judgment; all His commandments [are] sure. [8] They stand fast for ever and ever, [and are] done in truth and uprightness. [9] He sent redemption unto his people: He hath commanded His covenant for ever: holy and reverend [is] His name.

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands.

Leviticus 19:37 Therefore shall ye observe all My statutes, and all My judgments, and do them: I am the Lord.

Leviticus 20:22 Ye shall therefore keep all My statutes, and all My judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.

Leviticus 25:18 Wherefore ye shall do My statutes, and keep My judgments, and do them; and ye shall dwell in the land in safety.

Deuteronomy 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord G-d of your fathers giveth you.

Deuteronomy 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Deuteronomy 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the Lord thy G-d, and keep His charge, and His statutes, and His judgments, and His commandments, always.

Deuteronomy 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy G-d, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy G-d shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.


Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your G-d which I command you. (KJV)

Deuteronomy 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! (KJV)

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. (KJV)

This can go on a lot longer.

So we see the Law of God is eternal as God does not change nor does he break his word.
We also see that the Law has no affect on those who are in Christ.

So what? We have a contradiction in scripture?

No, if we arrive at contradiction then we know our interpretation is off.


Again, Paul writes in Galatians that the covenant to Abraham and his seed cannot be disannuled by the workings of the Law.

What we have here is two concurrent covenants. An eternal Law and a covenant of Blood Redemption.

They exist independent of each other. The Law has no bite. (except to unbelievers) The Law is impotent to hurt believers. The Law is still very much in effect forever to a thousand generations. I don't know how much clearer God could have been when he spoke to the prophets. A thousand generations hasn't even come close to occurring. You can brush it off as symbolism and exaggeration, but the exaggeration was intended to demonstrate a massive period endurance. Sort of like how Oh, I dont know... how many times should we forgive those who sin against us? 70X70? The point is for-ev-er.

Christ took away the curse of the Law. He did not take away the Law itself. Christians do not need to keep the Law of Moses to be saved. That doesn't mean that God feels his eternal statutes are obsolete. They are still the instruction manual of life; even his first covenant. They are also a schoolmaster to convince us of our NEED for Christ. Most people believe they are "good people" The Law proves none are good, no not one. The Law is God's standard by righteousness. Christ is the insurance policy that we all need because we already wrecked our shot at true righteousness. He is our righteousness. His righteousness is by the Law. Christ kept the Law "to the letter" Through him, we have kept the Law to the letter too. Don't teach people that the Law is void though. Paul said we should not make the Law void, but rather ESTABLISH THE LAW.

Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

 

[jasoncran]

related topic as i was looking at the prophecies concerning isreal eschatology likewise i did notice that it does point to what you say.

interesting that it seems some rituals will be in the millenium.

but those are for those that arent saved before that era, but rather for those that survive the trib and or also were resurrected and never knew or heard of christ.