If you sin, they are counted against you.I feel that the below passage set sheds some interesting "light" on the subject.
Romans 5:12-13 ESV - "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law."
As children of our Nazarene Christ, we are "separated" (which is what it means to be a Nazarene) from the Law. In this way, our sins are not counted against us, and this is through the Holy Work of Christ.
Thank you Jesus!
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Why Christians Cannot Sin
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Robert Pate
Member
Those that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit will not do those things. If they do those things, it is because they are not real Christians, they are counterfeits.
Spiritually, Christians cannot sin, "For where there is no law there is no sin" Romans 4:15.
Robert Pate
Member
They are not Christians, but they think that they are.
Yep, as no worker of iniquity can truthfully call himself a Christian.
Robert Pate
Member
The law was given to show us that we are sinners, in need of a savior.
Dorothy Mae
Member
That wasn’t a problem for Jesus. That they had lived lawlessly was the problem. So actually, it didn’t look like they were trying to be saved by their works. They had performed miracles. No one says healing the sick saves you.
Dorothy Mae
Member
No, it was actually given so we treat others as we’d like to be treated. We need it in black and white because we tend to think only of ourselves.
Robert Pate
Member
The law is not going to make you a better Christian. The law and religion will make you a bad Christian, Romans 7:7-12. What will make you a better Christian is to believe that you have been crucified with Christ so that the body of sin was destroyed, Romans 6:6.
Dorothy Mae
Member
Sorry but the one who refuses to murder, steal, commit adultery, lie IS a better Christian than the man who does those things. Which christian would you like as a neighbor, the one feels free to do all of that or the christian who places himself under the law of DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT KILL, and Do not lie?
Both believe they’ve been crucified with Christ so that the body of sin was destroyed.
So, long before the law were Adam and Eve. Just what do you think happened there? Or what about this:
Gen 4:6 The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?
Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.” (ESV)
Or:
Gen 39:8 But he refused and said to his master's wife, “Behold, because of me my master has no concern about anything in the house, and he has put everything that he has in my charge.
Gen 39:9 He is not greater in this house than I am, nor has he kept back anything from me except you, because you are his wife. How then can I do this great wickedness and sin against God?” (ESV)
Or:
Gen 50:17 ‘Say to Joseph, “Please forgive the transgression of your brothers and their sin, because they did evil to you.”’ And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father.” Joseph wept when they spoke to him. (ESV)
So, once again, we see that believers can indeed sin, since sin existed before the law and continues to exist afterward:
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)
Also:
1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
1Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death. (ESV)
The understanding then, of Romans 4:15, is that where prior to the law (since in context Paul is talking of the promise to Abraham), there is no knowledge of sin. More than that, you are taking that verse out of context. Look at what Paul writes right at the beginning of Romans:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (ESV)
So, even without the law of Moses, nature still tells us plainly about God, so that there is no excuse.
If the man is still committing sin, the body wasn't destroyed: so it is a false belief.
Robert Pate
Member
Adam and Eve were created innocent. When they sinned against God, they lost their innocent status and became sinners. A sinner is one that has transgressed God's law. All that are born after Adam are born sinners, Psalm 51:5. and need to be born again by the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23.
Being born again does not remove our sin nature, but it does help to subdue it. The Christian now has two natures, the nature of Christ and the nature of Adam. This can cause distress in the Christian life because these two natures are in conflict with each other, Galatians 5:17.
Law and religion does not help with this conflict, if anything it will make it worse, Romans 7:7-14. The only thing that will help is faith in the work and the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus has abolished the law that causes us to sin, Ephesians 2:15, Jesus nailed it to his cross, Colossians 2:14. Spiritually, our old sinful nature has been put to death, so that we don't have to serve sin, Romans 6:6. But we are still here in our unredeemed Adamic bodies that are prone to sin.
After being born again by the Gospel God now sees us "In Christ" and seals us with his Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. God now sees us as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. No laws, rules or religion needed. It is all of God. If you will embrace these things and believe them to be true, you will be a much better and stronger Christian.
Robert Pate In Romans 4:15, what law is Paul referring to?
the law points to sin...
while you part way right but complete is the root off of perfect be ye therefor perfect/ complete.. we are not perfect/ complete %100 till we reach heaven till then we are a work in progress . one could say on the potters wheel being fashioned by the masters Loving hands. He is the potter we are the clay and he is not finished with us yet
Robert Pate
Member
The Mosiac law that was given to Israel by God and Moses. It covers every facet of one's life and contained hundreds and hundreds of laws, rules and regulations. It was given to the Jews as a means of control until their Messiah arrived and then after the Messiah arrived it was abolished, Ephesians 2:15, so that God's people could live by faith and the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 8:10-13.
The purpose of the law was to preserve the nation of Israel so that the savior of the world could come from it. God did not want another Sodom and Gomorrah that would corrupt the line of Patriarchs from which Jesus would come. It was never intended to make anyone righteous. The Pharisees wanted to make it a religion.
So, on the one hand you are arguing that where there is no Mosaic Law, there is no sin. On the other, your previous answer says that Adam and Eve sinned, long before the Mosaic Law.
“Adam and Eve were created innocent. When they sinned against God, they lost their innocent status and became sinners. A sinner is one that has transgressed God's law.”
Your position isn’t looking very consistent. Or, by “God’s law” do you have some other law in mind?
Robert Pate
Member
As far as our salvation goes "We are complete in him". When you accepted Jesus as your savior you got all that there is to get. No Christian is superior to another Christ. We are all equal "In Christ". Some have more knowledge than others, but that does not mean that they are any better. There is no higharchy or popes in Christianity.
Sanctification is an ongoing process that will be complete when Jesus returns, Ephesians 3:4.
i dont think i said there was and i covered sanctification
Robert Pate
Member
God's law has always existed. The law is the nature and the character of God. Satan was cast out of heaven because he rebelled against God.
In that case, you have no argument that Christians cannot sin. This goes right back to what I said previously: And, so, Christians do, in fact sin. Ultimately, all sin is sin against God.