Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Dorothy Mae]

Almost all OSAS people I know put a sincere emphasis on walking in the Spirit and obedience.

It is still only an optional extra.

 

[rogerg]

John the baptizer (Yochanan the immerser) followed that statement with "bring forth fruits of repentance." That is important also.

Just to be clear, the repentance is to be from dead works unto faith in God. However, we
can only do that if that faith is given as a fruit of the Holy Spirit from the gift of salvation.

[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[Heb 9:14 KJV]
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[D-D-W]

True, and in my way of understanding the Bible, Paul (Sha'ul), the ex Pharisee said...

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
(Php 2:13)

No "ex" about it. Paul was a pharisee to his death.

 

[Hopeful]

Now only if some would move beyond believing they are full of grace and mercy to really giving grace and mercy…

Amen.

 

[Hopeful]

OSAS or non-OSAS, no one is worth following except Jesus Christ.

Amen to that, but I would also follow those who are "in" Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

You can keep all of them perfectly from birth to death (a fictional tale to be sure) and still not be saved.

Now that needs a thread of its own...

 

[crossnote]

No "ex" about it. Paul was a pharisee to his death.

Philippians 3:5-9 (KJV) Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

In this passage Paul seemed to disavow any connecting identity to being a Pharisee, at least disavowing their approach to the law as a means of righteousness before God.
In any case the Pharisees couldn't stand Paul or for what he stood for, neither did Paul care for their doctrine...

Galatians 5:11-12 (NASB) But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.

Galatians 6:12-13 (NASB) Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.

 

[Hopeful]

Justifying wickedness? You do not know what all of sin is, do you?

I agree with John that "all unrighteousness is sin." (1 John 5:17)

There is a LOT more to sin than just willful disobedience.

True, in the OT, but not anymore.

You can sin over and over and over, and not even be aware of it.

False, as that doesn't correlate with James 1:14-15.
Without temptation and lust, there is no sin.

You can sin by having a bad attitude or negative emotions. You can sin by believing the wrong doctrines. You can sin by not having faith. "Whatever is not from faith is sin." That can lead to an odd situation of "sinned if you do and sinned if you don't."

Do any of the believers of that doctrine live without sin?

 

[Hopeful]

So, are you saying that you do, or you do not put the spiritual authority of your church above the spiritual authority of Bible?

They are the same thing.
Both of their authorities are based on God.
Both agree with each other.

 

[Hopeful]

Almost all OSAS people I know put a sincere emphasis on walking in the Spirit and obedience.

I disagree with your diagnosis.

 

[crossnote]

Amen to that, but I would also follow those who are "in" Christ.

True, but that's a pretty tall order. Many claim to be Christian but their actions contradict their profession.
How do you determine if someone is 'in Christ'?
I find this helpful...

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
(Isa 8:20)

and...

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
(Act 17:11)

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, so many like to equate faith with obedience..except, when it comes to Jesus' perfect obedience (thus perfect faith).

Hi Crossnote,
The NT does equate faith with obedience.
But where does it state in the NT that our obedience must be 100%?
Nowhere.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Luke 6:46
Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do as I command?

 

[RBDERRICK]

I can’t tell when you are quoting or when you are giving commentary, the two are so much alike.

All in bold italics are quotes from others. I agree with none of them.

My words are in plain letters.

I should have been more clearer.

You don’t seem to understand. Those who are born again have a new nature, a nature that wants to please God. Have you been born again?

If you are referring to the bold quotes, I agree and ask the same.

Those sinning are not born of God, but are partakers of the divine nature, not of the devil.

I am born again of God and am not sinning with the devil by the grace and power of Jesus.

So, if you agree with any of the bold italic quotes, let me know.

OSAS teaches they are born of God and saved by grace, while sinning with the devil. You could call it now sinning by grace through faith, rather than before sinning in unbelief. Now they are 'believing' sinners.

 

[RBDERRICK]

True, but that's a pretty tall order. Many claim to be Christian but their actions contradict their profession.
How do you determine if someone is 'in Christ'?

Simple. Are we sinning now? If so, we are not in Christ, nor born of God. Not now.

We judge righteous judgment by judging all things by what we are doing now, not yesterday which is past, nor tomorrow which may not come.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Hi Crossnote,
The NT does equate faith with obedience.
But where does it state in the NT that our obedience must be 100%?
Nowhere.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment. (Matthew 22)

 

[crossnote]

Simple. Are we sinning now? If so, we are not in Christ, nor born of God. Not now.

We judge righteous judgment by judging all things by what we are doing now, not yesterday which is past, nor tomorrow which may not come.

Define ‘sinning now’.

 

[crossnote]

OSAS teaches they are born of God and saved by grace, while sinning with the devil. You could call it now sinning by grace through faith, rather than before sinning in unbelief. Now they are 'believing' sinners.

I proudly hold to OSAS, I am saved by Christ’s death, burial and resurrection.
My sins have been nailed to the cross, buried and I have been risen with Christ awaiting my new body.
Jesus has a good habit of finishing what He begins…
I am now His Son and He does not do abortions.
(Go ahead with your insults)

 

[crossnote]

Hi Crossnote,
The NT does equate faith with obedience.
But where does it state in the NT that our obedience must be 100%?
Nowhere.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Luke 6:46
Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do as I command?

I agree, but we obey out of love and a thankful heart.

Romans 5:5 NKJV
[5] Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Our obedience is not 100%, thus our need for a Savior.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You can keep all of them perfectly from birth to death (a fictional tale to be sure) and still not be saved.

So loving other people as you love yourself and loving God with all your being counts for nothing in the eyes of God? This is what keeping all the command results in, that kind of person. But instead, you’d say fulfilling the requirements of a religious matter, real as that is, that’s all that matters to God?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Crossnote, if a man keeps all the teaching of Jesus his whole life, he would be like Enoch or Jesus. Still your side insists he goes to hell. Just think about it.