Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

[Drew]

References to “forever†are not always intended to be taken literally. There is clear scriptural precedent for the use of such terms to denote finite periods of time. Consider this from Isaiah 34, describing the destruction of Edom,which we know has already occurred:

It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.

Clearly, fanciful poetic language is used to describe the destruction of Edom. We know that smoke does not rise from Edom today. Therefore,"forever" does not really mean forever here.

Another example from 1 Samuel:

"Then the man Elkanah went up with all his household to offer to the LORD the yearly sacrifice and pay his vow. But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, "I will not go up until the child is weaned; then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD and stay there forever."

These examples are powerful evidence that the writers of Scripture sometimes use references to "eternality" and "forever" in a non-literal sense.

 

[Guest]

The Challenge: Defend the eternal torment position against Paul's statements like "the wages of sin is death".

A Common Response:

1. When Paul says the wages of sin is death, he is specifically speaking of the body, to the exclusion of a consciousness-bearing soul;
2. So, yes, the physical body does indeed die;
3. The consciousness-bearing soul (or spirit) lives on in eternal torment.
4. Therefore, such statements by Paul do not challenge the "eternal torment" position.

The problem with this view is that rests on an assumption - that it is indeed Biblically correct to divide up the human person into (1) a consciousness-bearing soul (or spirit) that can exist apart from the body; and (2) a physical body in which that soul / spirit is "housed", at least during this present life.

The problem is that there is, I believe, no Biblical support for such an assumption.

I suggest that Paul means exactly what he says - the ultimate penalty is death. Not life in torment, but death.

Your soul and spirit that are inside of you is not an assumption, it's a fact..
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/bible-answer-man/appendix/are-soul-spirit-same.html

 

[Drew]

Your soul and spirit that are inside of you is not an assumption, it's a fact.

For the moment, I will not challenge this, although I suspect we disagree about what the Bible really says about it.

What I will re-iterate is this: there is no Biblical evidence for a consciousness-bearing soul or spirit that can survive apart from the body.

I do not respond to links to lengthy material: I believe that if you really have a case for a certain position, you should be able to explain your position yourself, in a reasonably concise manner.

 

[Drew]

For my part, I will point a particular Old Testament use of the word "soul". Somewhere in Leviticus, the author asserts that the "soul" is "in the blood".

This usage casts doubt on the position that, Biblically at least, the term "soul" denotes some sort of non-physical aspect of the human person.

 

[Guest]

Your soul and spirit that are inside of you is not an assumption, it's a fact.

For the moment, I will not challenge this, although I suspect we disagree about what the Bible really says about it.

What I will re-iterate is this: there is no Biblical evidence for a consciousness-bearing soul or spirit that can survive apart from the body.

I do not respond to links to lengthy material: I believe that if you really have a case for a certain position, you should be able to explain your position yourself, in a reasonably concise manner.

Well there is evidence. Let's start with this one, notice Matthew 25:46 says these. Who are these? Saying your soul and spirit can't survive apart from the body is saying there is no eternal life with God after death. You're also saying that there is no consequence for sin after death. Big mistake. What are you specifically looking for in scripture and I will find it for you, if Matthew 25:46 doesn't do it for ya. I encourage you to read the site i gave you, and you will learn something new.

 

[Drew]

Well there is evidence. Let's start with this one, notice Matthew 25:46 says these. Who are these? Saying your soul and spirit can't survive apart from the body is saying there is no eternal life with God after death.

I do not see how the Matthew text supports your case. Here is the text:

And these shall go away into qeverlasting punishment: but the righteous into qrlife eternal

Please explain how this text affirms the existence of a consciousness-bearing soul or spirit that can survive apart from the body. I suspect that you are assuming that eternal life is non-physical. If so, I suggest that is obviously non-Biblical, at least in terms of the final state of the believer: we are given resurrection bodies.

How does this text support your position without the prior assumption that this eternal life - the good or the bad forms of it - is experienced in a disembodied, non-physical state?

You're also saying that there is no consequence for sin after death. Big mistake.

I do not see how I am mistaken. Nothing I have posted supports a conclusion that there is no consequence for sin after death. Please explain exactly how it is that I am mistaken.

What are you specifically looking for in scripture and I will find it for you, if Matthew 25:46 doesn't do it for ya. I encourage you to read the site i gave you, and you will learn something new.

Why won't you defend your position rather than send me to a lengthy text? Presumably you understand your own belief - so, please, explain to us how the Bible makes the case that humans have a consciousness-bearing soul or spirit that can survive apart from the body.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Your soul and spirit that are inside of you is not an assumption, it's a fact.

For the moment, I will not challenge this, although I suspect we disagree about what the Bible really says about it.

What I will re-iterate is this: there is no Biblical evidence for a consciousness-bearing soul or spirit that can survive apart from the body.

I do not respond to links to lengthy material: I believe that if you really have a case for a certain position, you should be able to explain your position yourself, in a reasonably concise manner.

Hi Drew, what is the state of both the wicked and righteous before the final judgement, could you clarify if you see any differences between the OT and NT?

Thanks, I look forward to your response!

 

[Guest]

Why won't you defend your position rather than send me to a lengthy text? Presumably you understand your own belief - so, please, explain to us how the Bible makes the case that humans have a consciousness-bearing soul or spirit that can survive apart from the body.

The 'lengthy text' supports my position with scriptures. Read the text Drew. Reading is how we learn. To understand, and to move forward in this conversation, you will have to learn what the spirit and soul are. There are three main functions of the spirit and soul. functions of spirit - conscience, intuition and communion & functions of soul - will, mind and emotion

Also, can I ask you a question. What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is? What do you know about his resurrection?

 

[Drew]

Hi Drew, what is the state of both the wicked and righteous before the final judgement, could you clarify if you see any differences between the OT and NT?

Thanks, I look forward to your response!

I believe that all "sleep" till the final judgement. I believe what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 and what Jesus shows us" we (the redeemed) experience eternity in physical bodies. Jesus got a body, and Paul tells us we will get one too.

As a general point (on which which I suspect we agree, but as a minority among believers): there is no Bilical evidence for this notion of "souls" that are conscious and can exist apart from a body. That's a Greek idea, not a Jewish idea.

 

[Drew]

Read the text Drew....

Sorry: If you cannot make your own case, in your own words, I am not prepared to read that lengthy text.

Also, can I ask you a question. What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is? What do you know about his resurrection?

I believe the following:

1. The standard Trinitarian model;
2. Jesus is "God in the flesh" (an elaboration of (1));
3. Jesus came to complete the task of Israel, and did so;
4. On the cross, Jesus bore the sins of the world, defeated the power of evil, and established the kingdom of God;
5. Jesus was physcially resurrected on the third day.

There is more I could say. I trust you see that I believe the "standard" Christain stuff about Jesus. The only possible exception is item 3. I believe that Jesus took on the destiny of Israel and fulfilled her covenant obligations. I know a lot, perhaps most, Christians do not believe this. But I don't think that aspect is really relevant to the discussion at issue (but who knows).

 

[Guest]

Hi Drew, what is the state of both the wicked and righteous before the final judgement, could you clarify if you see any differences between the OT and NT?

Thanks, I look forward to your response!

I believe that all "sleep" till the final judgement. I believe what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 and what Jesus shows us" we (the redeemed) experience eternity in physical bodies. Jesus got a body, and Paul tells us we will get one too.

As a general point (on which which I suspect we agree, but as a minority among believers): there is no Bilical evidence for this notion of "souls" that are conscious and can exist apart from a body. That's a Greek idea, not a Jewish idea.

What you're saying doesn't make sense. You believe in immortal bodies after death, but we will not have a conscience and a soul? What??? We will be zombies in heaven for eternity? :silly

 

[Grappler]

Hi Drew, what is the state of both the wicked and righteous before the final judgement, could you clarify if you see any differences between the OT and NT?

Thanks, I look forward to your response!

I believe that all "sleep" till the final judgement. I believe what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 and what Jesus shows us" we (the redeemed) experience eternity in physical bodies. Jesus got a body, and Paul tells us we will get one too.

As a general point (on which which I suspect we agree, but as a minority among believers): there is no Bilical evidence for this notion of "souls" that are conscious and can exist apart from a body. That's a Greek idea, not a Jewish idea.

Exactly. No human souls are in heaven now nor are there anyone in a place called Hell...yet. Oh and the unrighteous won't be burning in torment for eternity either...:D

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I believe that all "sleep" till the final judgement. I believe what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 and what Jesus shows us" we (the redeemed) experience eternity in physical bodies. Jesus got a body, and Paul tells us we will get one too.

As a general point (on which which I suspect we agree, but as a minority among believers): there is no Bilical evidence for this notion of "souls" that are conscious and can exist apart from a body. That's a Greek idea, not a Jewish idea.

Well, the issue I have with this is in regards to believers Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. What do you make of the few texts that have a similar message?

 

[Grappler]

Hi Drew, what is the state of both the wicked and righteous before the final judgement, could you clarify if you see any differences between the OT and NT?

Thanks, I look forward to your response!

I believe that all "sleep" till the final judgement. I believe what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 and what Jesus shows us" we (the redeemed) experience eternity in physical bodies. Jesus got a body, and Paul tells us we will get one too.

As a general point (on which which I suspect we agree, but as a minority among believers): there is no Bilical evidence for this notion of "souls" that are conscious and can exist apart from a body. That's a Greek idea, not a Jewish idea.

What you're saying doesn't make sense. You believe in immortal bodies after death, but we will not have a conscience and a soul? What??? We will be zombies in heaven for eternity? :silly

Urk you are confused...you might want to check out some scripture that teaches the dead "sleep". You must have not read any of those so when i get the chance here i will post some if you like...let me know.

 

[Drew]

What you're saying doesn't make sense. You believe in immortal bodies after death, but we will not have a conscience and a soul? What??? We will be zombies in heaven for eternity?

You ascribe your belief about the nature of the soul to me, and then, on the basis of that ascription, conclude my view makes no sense.

Well, of course it wouldn't make sense if I, in fact, shared your view re the nature of the soul. But I don't. I believe that humans can only experience conscious states while embodied.

I believe that the term "spirit" denotes a mysterious quality, that when "fused" together with a body results in a conscious human person. There is a lot more that I say, but the thing of relevance is that I see no evidence in Bible for this idea that consciousness can exist without a body (at least for a human).

And I believe the term "soul" is used in the Bible either as a way to refer to the entire human person, or as a "descriptive" term rather than a term denoting a "component" of the human being. So its used like secular people use the term "personality". They believe people have personalities, but they do not believe the personality lives on apart from the body.

I hope my view is getting a little more clear....

 

[Grappler]

I believe that all "sleep" till the final judgement. I believe what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 and what Jesus shows us" we (the redeemed) experience eternity in physical bodies. Jesus got a body, and Paul tells us we will get one too.

As a general point (on which which I suspect we agree, but as a minority among believers): there is no Bilical evidence for this notion of "souls" that are conscious and can exist apart from a body. That's a Greek idea, not a Jewish idea.

Well, the issue I have with this is in regards to believers Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. What do you make of the few texts that have a similar message?

Paul said no such thing...you either misread or twisted scripture. Paul said he would "rather" be absent from the body and present with the Lord. What true Christian wouldn't want to be with Jesus?? Paul did not state this as a fact he stated this as a preference. Paul said the dead are "asleep". Have you never read those verses?

 

[Drew]

Exactly. No human souls are in heaven now nor are there anyone in a place called Hell...yet. Oh and the unrighteous won't be burning in torment for eternity either...

I generally agree, although I suspect neither of us has been fully exposed to the other's complete view on these complex issues.

 

[Guest]

i don't wanna be a zombie on the new earth with God after i die, that would suck. haha. This issue isn't even worth responding too. Where do you posters come from, seriously.

 

[Drew]

Well, the issue I have with this is in regards to believers Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. What do you make of the few texts that have a similar message?

Sorry about the fonts - never could figure that stuff out....

Paul's statement that he would rather be "absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord" works perfectly with the position that the redeemed sleep until the future resurrection. From Paul's perspective as a subject of experience, he will indeed experience an instant transition from the body to the Lord's presence, even if he factually rests in the grave for several thousand years. I see no reason to discount this "phenomenological"reading.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Paul said no such thing...you either misread or twisted scripture. Paul said he would "rather" be absent from the body and present with the Lord. What true Christian wouldn't want to be with Jesus?? Paul did not state this as a fact he stated this as a preference. Paul said the dead are "asleep". Have you never read those verses? Would you like me to post them for you??

Let's examine the texts shall we, I am of course familiar with the texts that say the dead sleep, however I believe that those who "sleep" in Christ has a different function and meaning.

Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8(ESV)

I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. Philippians 1:23(ESV)

and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, Hebrews 12:23(ESV)

These texts lead me to believe that something changed with the Resurrection of Jesus. That those who depart from the body are at home with the Lord, that Jesus is indeed preparing a place of us that is not permanent, but that when we depart we will forever be with him, whether in heaven or in the new creation.

That there is indeed an assembly of the first born who are enrolled in heaven... as well as what is described as the "spirits of the righteous made perfect." While I do not believe the soul is innately immortal, I believe that those who believe in Christ will never truly taste death.. they no longer go to Sheol to be in the place of silence and darkness and sleep the sleep of death.