Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

[Drew]

i don't wanna be a zombie on the new earth with God after i die, that would suck. haha. This issue isn't even worth responding too. Where do you posters come from, seriously.

Is this your way of saying that you are not prepared to defend your position?

Please do not insult us, especially as I see evidence of either:

1. You defending your position Biblically (other than appealing to someone elses' ideas);
2. You pointing out any errors in the arguments I (and perhaps others) have presented.

Let's discuss this matter scripturally, and leave the insulting and dismissive comments to the politicians.

 

[Guest]

i don't wanna be a zombie on the new earth with God after i die, that would suck. haha. This issue isn't even worth responding too. Where do you posters come from, seriously.

Is this your way of saying that you are not prepared to defend your position?

Please do not insult us, especially as I see evidence of either:

1. You defending your position Biblically (other than appealing to someone elses' ideas);
2. You pointing out any errors in the arguments I (and perhaps others) have presented.

Let's discuss this matter scripturally, and leave the insulting and dismissive comments to the politicians.

No, this is my way of not indulging in your insanity.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Sorry about the fonts - never could figure that stuff out....

Paul's statement that he would rather be "absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord" works perfectly with the position that the redeemed sleep until the future resurrection. From Paul's perspective as a subject of experience, he will indeed experience an instant transition from the body to the Lord's presence, even if he factually rests in the grave for several thousand years. I see no reason to discount this "phenomenological"reading.

That is indeed a possible interpretation, I'll grant that. What do you do then with texts like this?

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, Hebrews 12:22-23

Curious to know your answer. Thanks!

 

[reba]

Some of the snarks are removed if I missed yours I am sorry. Moderator

 

[Drew]

I invite anyone who believe so, to point us to where the Bible asserts that human beings possess consciousness-bearing souls (or spirits) that can exist apart from the body? Or, to explain to us how it is that the culture in which the Bible was written embraced this belief?

 

[Guest]

I invite anyone who believe so, to point us to where the Bible asserts that human beings possess consciousness-bearing souls (or spirits) that can exist apart from the body?

Drew, what you're saying is that when born again christians die and are resurrected in our new bodies to live with God on the new earth, our bodies will not have a soul, spirit and conscience. Do you understand how insane that sounds, literally. Do you not see it? Are you into zombie flicks or something, i don't understand how you could come to this conclusion.

 

[Drew]

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, Hebrews 12:22-23

Curious to know your answer. Thanks!

Good question. I will have to think about it. If I do not get back to you, please feel free to remind me....

 

[Drew]

Drew, what you're saying is that when born again christians die and are resurrected in our new bodies to live with God on the new earth, our bodies will not have a soul, spirit and conscience. Do you understand how insane that sounds, literally. Do you not see it? Are you into zombie flicks or something, i don't understand how you could come to this conclusion.

I suggest this only sound insane to someone who believes that the soul is a thing that can exist apart from the body and function as a seat of consciousness. This is a "western" / greek idea, and I suggest that independent historical inquiry will show that Jews did not necessarily believe in this model. Can you explain to us how you know that this "soul" you speak of us exists?

Let's all realize that there are many different to think about the nature of the human person. Many secular people believe that "we're just bodies". Well, I kind of disagree with that, but the point is that it is not obvious that they are wrong.

I do not, repeat not, believe we will lack consciousness in our resurrection bodies. I believe we will indeed be conscious. But here is the key: it is not logically necessary for there to be an immaterial consciousness-bearing soul (or spirit) for consciousness to be manifest.

 

[Free]

I invite anyone who believe so, to point us to where the Bible asserts that human beings possess consciousness-bearing souls (or spirits) that can exist apart from the body?

Drew, what you're saying is that when born again christians die and are resurrected in our new bodies to live with God on the new earth, our bodies will not have a soul, spirit and conscience. Do you understand how insane that sounds, literally. Do you not see it? Are you into zombie flicks or something, i don't understand how you could come to this conclusion.

Clearly that is not at all what he is saying. A close look at what he is saying actually implies that we will indeed once again be souls--bodies with consciousness-bearing spirits--when we are resurrected. His argument leaves no room for any other understanding, much less such a Straw Man such as being zombies.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Good question. I will have to think about it. If I do not get back to you, please feel free to remind me....

Hi Drew,

Thank you for taking the time to consider it and work it out, theology is not always perfectly easy to iron out all the different issues. I appreciate your attitude of humility and courtesy throughout this exchange.

Be blessed!
Servant of Jesus

 

[Guest]

Drew, what you're saying is that when born again christians die and are resurrected in our new bodies to live with God on the new earth, our bodies will not have a soul, spirit and conscience. Do you understand how insane that sounds, literally. Do you not see it? Are you into zombie flicks or something, i don't understand how you could come to this conclusion.

I suggest this only sound insane to someone who believes that the soul is a thing that can exist apart from the body and function as a seat of consciousness. This is a "western" / greek idea, and I suggest that independent historical inquiry will show that Jews did not necessarily believe in this model. Can you explain to us how you know that this "soul" you speak of us exists?

Let's all realize that there are many different to think about the nature of the human person. Many secular people believe that "we're just bodies". Well, I kind of disagree with that, but the point is that it is not obvious that they are wrong.

So it's true, you're not joking around with me. I just wanna make sure that you're serious. I've seen and read a lot of things in my lifetime, but this one takes the cake. No Free, Drew does not believe we will possess a soul, spirit and conscience after we die. Read closer.

 

[Drew]

Clearly that is not at all what he is saying. A close look at what he is saying actually implies that we will indeed once again be souls--bodies with consciousness-bearing spirits--when we are resurrected. His argument leaves no room for any other understanding, much less such a Straw Man such as being zombies.

As a very slight qualification to this, my opinion is that while we can predicate both a "body" and "a spirit" of a person, resurrected or otherwise, neither of these can be described as the "place" where consciousness lives - I think consciousness is a property of the entire human person as a whole.

This is a very slight nuance, though, and I appreciate that you understand that I am not endorsing the notion that we are zombies.

 

[Free]

Drew, what you're saying is that when born again christians die and are resurrected in our new bodies to live with God on the new earth, our bodies will not have a soul, spirit and conscience. Do you understand how insane that sounds, literally. Do you not see it? Are you into zombie flicks or something, i don't understand how you could come to this conclusion.

I suggest this only sound insane to someone who believes that the soul is a thing that can exist apart from the body and function as a seat of consciousness. This is a "western" / greek idea, and I suggest that independent historical inquiry will show that Jews did not necessarily believe in this model. Can you explain to us how you know that this "soul" you speak of us exists?

Let's all realize that there are many different to think about the nature of the human person. Many secular people believe that "we're just bodies". Well, I kind of disagree with that, but the point is that it is not obvious that they are wrong.

So it's true, you're not joking around with me. I just wanna make sure that you're serious. I've seen and read a lot of things in my lifetime, but this one takes the cake. No Free, Drew does not believe we will possess a soul, spirit and conscience after we die. Read closer.

I read closer and I find it interesting how you left out the last part of his post: "I do not, repeat not, believe we will lack consciousness in our resurrection bodies. I believe we will indeed be conscious. But here is the key: it is not logically necessary for there to be an immaterial consciousness-bearing soul (or spirit) for consciousness to be manifest."

Perhaps you believe that we will not have bodies when we are resurrected, that we will just be spirits floating around. Is that what you believe?

 

[Guest]

Clearly that is not at all what he is saying. A close look at what he is saying actually implies that we will indeed once again be souls--bodies with consciousness-bearing spirits--when we are resurrected. His argument leaves no room for any other understanding, much less such a Straw Man such as being zombies.

As a very slight qualification to this, my opinion is that while we can predicate both a "body" and "a spirit" of a person, resurrected or otherwise, neither of these can be described as the "place" where consciousness lives - I think consciousness is a property of the entire human person as a whole.

This is a very slight nuance, though, and I appreciate that you understand that I am not endorsing the notion that we are zombies.

wow, so i never knew my spirit and soul were never connected to my brain. interesting but still insane. Free, read closer my friend. lol.

 

[Free]

Clearly that is not at all what he is saying. A close look at what he is saying actually implies that we will indeed once again be souls--bodies with consciousness-bearing spirits--when we are resurrected. His argument leaves no room for any other understanding, much less such a Straw Man such as being zombies.

As a very slight qualification to this, my opinion is that while we can predicate both a "body" and "a spirit" of a person, resurrected or otherwise, neither of these can be described as the "place" where consciousness lives - I think consciousness is a property of the entire human person as a whole.

This is a very slight nuance, though, and I appreciate that you understand that I am not endorsing the notion that we are zombies.

I take it that you understand 'soul' as it is first used in the Bible--that God breathed into Adam and he became a soul, a living-being, correct? I suppose I presumed that in my previous response. It seems to be that if it is the breath of God into our bodies that somehow animates us and interacts with our brain and gives us consciousness, it follows that at the resurrection God would have to "breath" into us or in some other way provide spirit to our bodies and we would essentially be who we are now (albeit in a glorified body).

I'm not stating it well but I'm sure you know what I'm getting at.

 

[Drew]

wow, so i never knew my spirit and soul were never connected to my brain. interesting but still insane. Free, read closer my friend. lol.

I really do not believe I have presented anything that is either clearly non-Biblical or internally inconsistent. I have not even commented on the "connections" between soul, spirit, and body.

And I certainly have clearly asserted that we will be conscious in our resurrected state. I believe that you cannot, or will not, at least provisionally, entertain the possibility that humans do not have consciousness-bearing souls (or spirits).

I am not sure my "insanity" lies - my not holding your world view about how human beings are split up into parts certainly is no mark of insanity.

 

[Free]

Clearly that is not at all what he is saying. A close look at what he is saying actually implies that we will indeed once again be souls--bodies with consciousness-bearing spirits--when we are resurrected. His argument leaves no room for any other understanding, much less such a Straw Man such as being zombies.

As a very slight qualification to this, my opinion is that while we can predicate both a "body" and "a spirit" of a person, resurrected or otherwise, neither of these can be described as the "place" where consciousness lives - I think consciousness is a property of the entire human person as a whole.

This is a very slight nuance, though, and I appreciate that you understand that I am not endorsing the notion that we are zombies.

wow, so i never knew my spirit and soul were never connected to my brain. interesting but still insane. Free, read closer my friend. lol.

Please stop calling someone else's understanding insane, especially since you are not providing any counter-argument of substance.

 

[Drew]

I take it that you understand 'soul' as it is first used in the Bible--that God breathed into Adam and he became a soul, a living-being, correct? I suppose I presumed that in my previous response. It seems to be that if it is the breath of God into our bodies that somehow animates us and interacts with our brain and gives us consciousness, it follows that at the resurrection God would have to "breath" into us or in some other way provide spirit to our bodies and we would essentially be who we are now (albeit in a glorified body).

Exactly - well-stated. I am inclined to believe that our "spirits" are, in some sense, the animating essence that God provides us.

 

[Guest]

Ok, so my soul and spirit are not connected to my brain. Good to know guys.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

wow, so i never knew my spirit and soul were never connected to my brain. interesting but still insane. Free, read closer my friend. lol.

I really do not believe I have presented anything that is either clearly non-Biblical or internally inconsistent. I have not even commented on the "connections" between soul, spirit, and body.

And I certainly have clearly asserted that we will be conscious in our resurrected state. I believe that you cannot, or will not, at least provisionally, entertain the possibility that humans do not have consciousness-bearing souls (or spirits).

I am not sure my "insanity" lies - my not holding your world view about how human beings are split up into parts certainly is no mark of insanity.

Hmm, would you say that the way that they interact is not that they are 3 separate parts of a body, as in they can be separated and still exist/be alive. That they all three together comprise the whole of a person, that the person isn't truly the person without all three present, therefore there is no consciousness between the first death and the resurrection?

Let me know if I am coming to the right conclusions about what you believe. Also, I'm sure you might prefer that some of the words be switched around or said a little differently, I know when I believe something and have worked it out in my own mind, I like to say it in a particular way.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus