Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

[Grappler]

Paul said no such thing...you either misread or twisted scripture. Paul said he would "rather" be absent from the body and present with the Lord. What true Christian wouldn't want to be with Jesus?? Paul did not state this as a fact he stated this as a preference. Paul said the dead are "asleep". Have you never read those verses? Would you like me to post them for you??

Let's examine the texts shall we, I am of course familiar with the texts that say the dead sleep, however I believe that those who "sleep" in Christ has a different function and meaning.

Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8(ESV)

I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. Philippians 1:23(ESV)

and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, Hebrews 12:23(ESV)

These texts lead me to believe that something changed with the Resurrection of Jesus. That those who depart from the body are at home with the Lord, that Jesus is indeed preparing a place of us that is not permanent, but that when we depart we will forever be with him, whether in heaven or in the new creation.

That there is indeed an assembly of the first born who are enrolled in heaven... as well as what is described as the "spirits of the righteous made perfect." While I do not believe the soul is innately immortal, I believe that those who believe in Christ will never truly taste death.. they no longer go to Sheol to be in the place of silence and darkness and sleep the sleep of death.

You said that Jesus was going to go and prepare a place for us but you forgot to post the rest...Jesus said that he was going to prepare a place for us and then what?? He was going to come again and get us. Now Iesou why would Jesus have to come back to get us if we are already in heaven with him like you say??

 

[Grappler]

You might wanna pass that on to Drew. Blessings.

Why, he will be accountable for his action here, as I will be... just as you will be.

For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. For each one will bear his own load. Galatians 6:4-6(NASB)

.... Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. Galatians 6:7(NASB)

Beyond this, it is the responsibility of the forum moderators, please try to stay on-topic though so that the thread is not closed.

Thank you,
Servant of Jesus

Because Drew doesn't believe our spirit and soul will exist in the afterlife. No soul and spirit, no eternal life, no punishment.

You sure a big on that punishment part aren't you urk??lol

 

[Grappler]

Ok, so my soul and spirit are not connected to my brain. Good to know guys.

You continue to ascribe your conceptualization of the world to others. Not surprisingly, when you do this, an inconsistent worldview results.

I am not sure how to convince you of what seems obvious to me: You understand the concepts "soul" and "spirit" as denoting something different from the denotation I ascribe to for these terms.

I do not believe there is anything I have posted so far that leads to a worldview that is either (1) internallly inconsistent; (2) inconsistent with the facts of the world.

Well, you don't believe our spirit and soul can function outside of our body. What do you think happens to our old body and new body after we die? Where does our spirit and soul go?

To "sleep" urk waiting on the resurrection. I mean how hard is that for you to comprehend?? Would you like some scripture to support that?

 

[Guest]

You sure a big on that punishment part aren't you urk??lol

Grappler, I already know what you think about hell so, why not just make peace.

 

[Grappler]

You sure a big on that punishment part aren't you urk??lol

Grappler, I already know what you think about hell so, why not just make peace.

Lighten up urk i am just kidding with you.

 

[Guest]

You sure a big on that punishment part aren't you urk??lol

Grappler, I already know what you think about hell so, why not just make peace.

Lighten up urk i am just kidding with you.

You know what i think and i know what you think about hell, no sense in battling it out every day if you know what I mean.

 

[Guest]

So the question at hand for anyone participating on the price is right is, where did Jesus go when he died?

 

[Drew]

....

We're done - you will not do me the courtesy of acknowledging what I believe. It is impossible to continue under such a condition.

 

[jasoncran]

sheol. the pardise is in sheol. sheol has two areas. one for the righteous Hebrews and the other for the sinner Hebrews.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Paul said no such thing...you either misread or twisted scripture. Paul said he would "rather" be absent from the body and present with the Lord. What true Christian wouldn't want to be with Jesus?? Paul did not state this as a fact he stated this as a preference. Paul said the dead are "asleep". Have you never read those verses? Would you like me to post them for you??

Let's examine the texts shall we, I am of course familiar with the texts that say the dead sleep, however I believe that those who "sleep" in Christ has a different function and meaning.

Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8(ESV)

I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. Philippians 1:23(ESV)

and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, Hebrews 12:23(ESV)

These texts lead me to believe that something changed with the Resurrection of Jesus. That those who depart from the body are at home with the Lord, that Jesus is indeed preparing a place of us that is not permanent, but that when we depart we will forever be with him, whether in heaven or in the new creation.

That there is indeed an assembly of the first born who are enrolled in heaven... as well as what is described as the "spirits of the righteous made perfect." While I do not believe the soul is innately immortal, I believe that those who believe in Christ will never truly taste death.. they no longer go to Sheol to be in the place of silence and darkness and sleep the sleep of death.

You said that Jesus was going to go and prepare a place for us but you forgot to post the rest...Jesus said that he was going to prepare a place for us and then what?? He was going to come again and get us. Now Iesou why would Jesus have to come back to get us if we are already in heaven with him like you say??

That is a good question Grappler, the fact that the next verse clarifies that (sorry ripped that one out of context) this is most likely referring to the final dwelling place of the righteous.

My concern is not to be right, but to align with Scripture, therefore I wanted to present Scriptural passages that have traditionally been used to support the understanding that I currently possess, and see if there was a better understanding of these texts in your position.

However, the most compelling Scripture that I feel supports my position is Hebrews 12:22-23(NASB). Do you have an interpretation of this passage?

Thank you Grappler, look forward to your response.

Servant of Jesus

 

[Doulos Iesou]

sheol. the pardise is in sheol. sheol has two areas. one for the righteous Hebrews and the other for the sinner Hebrews.

Do you have any support for this doctrine in Scripture, especially the OT which has many references to Sheol?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

You said that Jesus was going to go and prepare a place for us but you forgot to post the rest...Jesus said that he was going to prepare a place for us and then what?? He was going to come again and get us. Now Iesou why would Jesus have to come back to get us if we are already in heaven with him like you say??

Hi Grappler,

Here are some other texts that I'd like to hear your thoughts on...

1. And he said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.†(Lk 23:43).

- Jesus told the prisoner on the Cross that today, which absolutely meant the same day, he would be with Jesus in paradise. Note this Lexicon's definition of this specific usage.

67.205 σήμερον: the same day as the day of a discourse—‘today.’ ὕπαγε σήμερον ἐργάζου ἐν τῷ ἀμπελῶνι ‘go work in the vineyard today’ Mt 21:28.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (653). New York: United Bible Societies.

2. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, thus also God will bring those who have fallen asleep through Jesus together with him. (1 Th 4:14).

3. And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had, 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “⌊How long⌋, holy and true Lord, will you not judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?†11 And to each one of them a white robe was given, and it was said to them that they should rest yet a short time, until the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been were completed also. (Re 6:9–11).

4. Also Revelation chapter 5, which describes the throne room of God, in which there are elders (humans) who are worshiping God at the time John wrote the book of Revelation.

I look eagerly await your responses, and appreciate your contributions so far.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

P.S. Drew you can respond to this post too

 

[Guest]

Question for Drew, where did Jesus go when he died?

I will consider answering this question, but only if you acknowledge that I believe the following:

1. The "soul is not a thing";
2. The spirit does not have consciousness in the absence of a body.

I am not asking you to accept this. I am asking you to accept that I believe it.

Until you take me seriously about what I believe, I am not sure there is value in continuing.

Our soul and spirit have substance, and our spirit does have a conscience. When we are resurrected in our immortal bodies after we die, our soul and spirit will be with us and will have functions.

 

[Guest]

The Human Spirit

According to the revelation of the Bible and the experience of believers, the human spirit can be said to have three main functions. These three functions are conscience (Rom. 9:1; 8:16), intuition (Mark 2:8), and communion (John 4:24). The conscience is the part of the spirit which distinguishes right from wrong and is not influenced by knowledge stored in the mind; it is rather a spontaneous direct judgment. The intuition is the “knowing†part of the spirit. All true knowledge originates not in the mind, but in the spirit. The revelations of God and the movements of the Holy Spirit are known to the believer through his intuition. A believer must, therefore, take care to heed these two aspects of his spirit: the speaking of his conscience and the teaching of his intuition.

Communion is the third function of the spirit, and is related to the worship of God. The soul is not competent to worship God. According to John 4:24, “God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.â€

The Human Soul

Not only does man possess a spirit which enables him to function in the spiritual realm; he also possesses a soul which is the organ of his self-consciousness. The soul is the seat of the human personality. The ingredients which make us human beings belong to the soul. The intellect, thought, ideals, love, emotion, understanding, decision, choice, and other like qualities are all associated with the soul. The three main functions of the soul are the will (Job 7:15), the mind (Lam. 3:20, RSV), and the emotion (2 Sam. 5:8; Deut. 6:5). The will is the instrument for making decisions and choices. The second function of the soul is the mind, the instrument for thinking. It is in this part of the soul that man reasons and has knowledge (Prov. 2:10). The third function of the soul is the emotion. This is the instrument of likes and dislikes. Through the emotions we are able to express love or hatred, joyfulness, anger, sadness, or happiness. A shortage in this area will render us insensitive. By a careful study of the Bible we cannot help but be impressed that these three primary functions of the personality belong to the soul.

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/bible-answer-man/appendix/are-soul-spirit-same.html

 

[jasoncran]

im going to have to ask. theres a controversy on this. I may have erred on this. I do know that the jews do accept an idea of sheol even now but. the commentantors I like say that urk's position is one of the rcc. that said whom where the saints that were raised up from the grave?

 

[Grappler]

So the question at hand for anyone participating on the price is right is, where did Jesus go when he died?

To Tartarus.

 

[Grappler]

The Human Spirit

According to the revelation of the Bible and the experience of believers, the human spirit can be said to have three main functions. These three functions are conscience (Rom. 9:1; 8:16), intuition (Mark 2:8), and communion (John 4:24). The conscience is the part of the spirit which distinguishes right from wrong and is not influenced by knowledge stored in the mind; it is rather a spontaneous direct judgment. The intuition is the “knowing” part of the spirit. All true knowledge originates not in the mind, but in the spirit. The revelations of God and the movements of the Holy Spirit are known to the believer through his intuition. A believer must, therefore, take care to heed these two aspects of his spirit: the speaking of his conscience and the teaching of his intuition.

Communion is the third function of the spirit, and is related to the worship of God. The soul is not competent to worship God. According to John 4:24, “God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

The Human Soul

Not only does man possess a spirit which enables him to function in the spiritual realm; he also possesses a soul which is the organ of his self-consciousness. The soul is the seat of the human personality. The ingredients which make us human beings belong to the soul. The intellect, thought, ideals, love, emotion, understanding, decision, choice, and other like qualities are all associated with the soul. The three main functions of the soul are the will (Job 7:15), the mind (Lam. 3:20, RSV), and the emotion (2 Sam. 5:8; Deut. 6:5). The will is the instrument for making decisions and choices. The second function of the soul is the mind, the instrument for thinking. It is in this part of the soul that man reasons and has knowledge (Prov. 2:10). The third function of the soul is the emotion. This is the instrument of likes and dislikes. Through the emotions we are able to express love or hatred, joyfulness, anger, sadness, or happiness. A shortage in this area will render us insensitive. By a careful study of the Bible we cannot help but be impressed that these three primary functions of the personality belong to the soul.

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/bible-answer-man/appendix/are-soul-spirit-same.html

Jesus just divided man into body and soul.

 

[Guest]

So the question at hand for anyone participating on the price is right is, where did Jesus go when he died?

To Tartarus.

what?? Tartarus?

 

[Grappler]

So the question at hand for anyone participating on the price is right is, where did Jesus go when he died?

To Tartarus.

what?? Tartarus?

Sure why not?

 

[jasoncran]

im going to have to ask. theres a controversy on this. I may have erred on this. I do know that the jews do accept an idea of sheol even now but. the commentantors I like say that urk's position is one of the rcc. that said whom where the saints that were raised up from the grave?

Is urk a Catholic?

I dont know. hmm barnes isn't sure if its sheol or hell, Clarke says he went to preach to those souls in prison for their faith. yet neither really holds.