Bible Study WHY!

[th1b.taylor]

Paul, did not excommunicate him. He had to leave so others, especially the youngest, would not think that what he was doing was OK to do. Thus, spreading the sin among other believers.

Nor can I, my Church, you nor your Church nor the Catholic Church excommunicate anybody. However if you never judge anyone, who can you witness to and for? When I was lost, David Keaton judged me lost and very pointedly witnessed to me about my condition. All the people that have been drawn to the foot of the cross because I submitted to Jesus and judged that they needed a witness (judged them lost) might never have found the LORD for their salvation.

Nope. Breaking fellowship can be a call to repentance of A sin. As it was here.

Okay, but if they refuse, and refuse and refuse the third attempt with the Church as their witness, where is the evidence they were anything more than a Pew Whale? Pew Whales hear but do not recieve, they make up aq little better than 98% percent according to the mid-eighties Barna survey of the American Church. And anyone that rejects the basic tenants of the Christian Faith is not saved and God will not have us to be Spiritually Ignorant.

LOL, ezrider sure knows a lot about what it says for never reading it and believing what it says about salvation and grace.
I'm not sure and maybe he will respond to this post, but the more I have read his posts, I get the idea he is saying, "worship the Lord not the Book."

But getting an idea has no relavance to what he clearly states. He has stated, more than once, he does not need the Word of God because the spirit in him tells him what is and what is not.

The Spirit in me does the same thing but there is a principal in the scriptures (2Tim. 2:15) where we are to handle the scriptures correctly and that requires the scriptures to supersede every other source, especially, personal revelations. If any revelation is in conflict with the Word of God it is a lie because in Mal. 3:6a we learn that God never has and god never will change. That's very final and you see, judgment, discernment or whatever name is attached is required!

 

[Deborah13]

Sorry, forgot to consult God. In Matt. 7:16 we find that by their fruit we will know them. This is the measuring device God has given us to use, when we have been about cleaning our lives to live under God's rule.

Sorry about my pride rising up.

And it's almost impossible to know ones fruit in their walk with the Lord unless you personally see them in action. And many times we have no idea what they are doing for the Lord even when we see them every day. They might be a tremendous prayer warrior, they may feed and cloth the poor with every extra dime they have, just because they love the Lord and serve Him in silence about their good deeds.
Sometimes people are judged because their doctrine doesn't exactly agree with what WE think the word says.
Sometimes we just don't understand what someone else is saying. Paul was judged for this same reason. The Jews accused him of teaching other Jews that they shouldn't be circumcised or observe the feasts, etc. Paul never taught any such thing.

 

[th1b.taylor]

How can you presume to judge the righteous judgement of the Lord when by your own words you have rejected His new covenant of Grace.

There you go extra biblical again for I am saved by the Grace of God and educated by the Holy Ghost through the Word of God and you, not I have presented me with animosity reviling the Whole Word of God, taking the Commentary, spoken through servants of God and recorded for our profit.

I am not important enough to be a problem. i am nought but a Bond Servant of the LORD, my Master.

 

[th1b.taylor]

And it's almost impossible to know ones fruit in their walk with the Lord unless you personally see them in action.

Deb,
I seek not to revile nor to be be reviled but you speak here, either without foreknowledge or in denial of what is clearly seen. In the case of ez I have no cause against ez other than his clear statements, posted by no other than himself. And in the case of the lady charged by others, not me, she did indeed confront me with the lie that my faith was weak, coupled with her personal statement that she, not God, could heal me if I would have faith in her and her side kick. And, my class being next door to hers, doors open to the hall, she did each heresy within my hearing and chastised me for not teaching the same heresy.

I do my best to remain clean and to do only the work of my Master, as it measures agAINST The Word of God, that Satan may never trick me.

I'm out for four hours so my wife may bomb the house.

 

[Deborah13]

David Keaton judged me lost and very pointedly witnessed to me about my condition.

David Keaton was someone who knew you. Did you tell him you were saved and knew Jesus was your Lord and Savior and then did he call you a liar? I don't hardly think that is the same.

He has stated, more than once, he does not need the Word of God because the spirit in him tells him what is and what is not.

But it is obvious he already knows what it says.
I think there are several people on this forum who could put down their Bibles for a long time and be completely lead by the Holy Spirit and live very Godly lives. Those people will not fail if things were to get really bad. They will stand whether they have the written word or not. They have buried His word, His heart, in their hearts.

 

[ezrider]

There you go extra biblical again for I am saved by the Grace of God and educated by the Holy Ghost through the Word of God and you, not I have presented me with animosity reviling the Whole Word of God, taking the Commentary, spoken through servants of God and recorded for our profit.

I am not important enough to be a problem. i am nought but a Bond Servant of the LORD, my Master.

And what man when he comes into the Kings palace seeks out the message of the servant except he be involved in gossip or seeking leverage over the king? Has not the man come to the palace that he might gain audience to hear the word of the King? But just like the servants of old block the way that the voice of the King can not be heard; you don't enter in to the kingdom and you are preventing those who would enter in from doing so. But try as you might, you can not prevent the voice of our Lord and King from being heard. For I do wonder if you know the wisdom of our Lord, for when his servants, the bond slaves of His covenant with Moses prevented the people from hearing the word of Lord, the Lord came unto them disguised as a servant but speaking with the voice of his Father. Even the bond slaves of the law did not perceive their own station, and they thought of themselves much higher than they should, and they would not hear the Word's spoken unto them because they looked upon Jesus as a man of low station.

But he has not made us as unto servants, he hath brought us into one in Christ and he has made us unto sons of Gods through Faith in Christ Jesus under His Covenant of Grace. Now if the bond slaves of the covenant of law should happen keep you from gaining audience with the King, perhaps He shall favor you and one of His Son's might cross your path, an if that Son be true, then the Son may speak on behalf of his Father, and you will have gained audience to your King if your heart should be ready to receive it.

.

 

[Deborah13]

I seek not to revile nor to be be reviled but you speak here, either without foreknowledge or in denial of what is clearly seen.

I have no idea what you are not clearly saying here. Foreknowledge?
Nothing I have said was in relationship to what happened in your church with that woman. I don't have any reason to comment on that at all. If you are referring to what I said about differences in doctrines causing someone to say another is not saved, it definitely doesn't have anything to do with your church situation. Unless you said the church determined she wasn't saved and I missed that?

Edit: I just looked back, your church did declare her not saved. They wouldn't ever have to worry about me darkening their door step.

 

[Chopper]

Wow! First I want to thank my old friend Bill Taylor for coming to my aid answering some of questions raised by my other friend's. Second, I'd like to, in some way, to answer some of the questions raised and to shed some light on my thinking concerning Old and New Covenants....I apologize for not getting right back to your questions. The death of my Wife's twin Sister has placed the two of us into a very busy schedule without much time for enjoyment. We must now oversee two of her older children, plus bring up her 11 year old Son Jordan of who she adopted. Our home has ceased being a quite retreat from busy stressful days.

As I've said before, I'm of late, a serious student of the Old Covenant so that I can gain some wisdom in discovering what applies to me in the New Covenant. Deb, my good friend and critic of some of my theology of which I appreciate because that make me careful in presenting truth backed up with Scripture, has posed some interesting questions.

I began to see some important lessons about Israel and Judah's unfaithfulness in following God's Commands, Statues, and rules, and God's faithfulness in restoring the Jew's when they repented. If I were still behind the pulpit teaching God's people, I would teach thru 1st and 2nd Chronicles. Just think of the messages around the prayer of Solomon for wisdom instead of feeding his flesh.

There are lessons on the lives of Abijah, Asa, Jehoshaphat and the kings in Israel and Judah that followed them. Their success and failures house mighty wisdom and understanding that, if applied to our lives, would benefit greatly our daily walk with the Spirit of God as noted in Romans 8.

I believe that God established a form of Salvation for the Jews in the Old Covenant. The prophets, especially Isaiah, spoke about a Messiah, born a particular way, lived (Isaiah 53:12 "Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

I believe that the Jews, by faith, believed in a Savior that would appear sometime in the future, and in the meantime, they must remain faithful to Yahweh and to obey His Commands, and to keep the feast days, keeping the Sabbath and so on. Abraham was the example before the people. Since Abraham, Isaac, &Jacob will appear in heaven some day, that tells me that they had a Salvation. Certainly the way of Salvation was different than ours, but saved to be sure.

Getting back to my OP, Jesus taught out of the Old Covenant as well as the Apostles and other inspired writers of the New Covenant. It seems to me that the Apostles wrote to the, lets say, the seven major churches found in Revelation. Therefore, if I were a pastor today, I would look to the letters to those churches as an example of how to organize and conduct services and policies.

Having the opportunity to study the books of the Old Covenant, personally I see how to live a life pleasing to the Lord. The major difference being how the Old & New obtained Salvation. Galatians for example, warns the people against going back to the Old method of obtaining righteousness thru obedience to the Law because that would be the same as disowning Christ Jesus as the only way to Salvation.

The bottom line here is the Old Covenant teachings hold the key to how to please Yahweh and by observing the New Covenant teachings to the Churches of Christ Jesus, and the letters to the dispersed Jewish people like Romans ans Hebrews, I can live the "whole counsel of God", not just an unbalanced theology.

What I see in many people who are taught primarily from the New Covenant are people who see a Christian lifestyle of Luvy duvy, warm and fuzzy with no or little teaching on the wrath of God, fear of the Lord, and seeing Jesus only as a loving Savior and not the Lion of the Tribe of Judah who will return to squash His enemies with the violence of nature and the sword of His mouth....THERE HAS TO BE A BALANCE!! That can only be attained by an equal teaching and preaching from both Covenants.

 

[th1b.taylor]

David Keaton was someone who knew you. Did you tell him you were saved and knew Jesus was your Lord and Savior and then did he call you a liar? I don't hardly think that is the same.

But it is obvious he already knows what it says.
I think there are several people on this forum who could put down their Bibles for a long time and be completely lead by the Holy Spirit and live very Godly lives. Those people will not fail if things were to get really bad. They will stand whether they have the written word or not. They have buried His word, His heart, in their hearts.

Debroah, he errs to much to have the Word buried in his heart, I know because from the time I began I have been busy hiding the Word in my heart. And if I get up in the morning and put on a blue t-shirt and ez tells at 4:30 that my shirt is pink and when I look at it and it is still blue, one of us errs or the other is color blind or telling stories.

Repeatedly I search his unaddressed references and find his application in error and when I address the issue he tries to change the subject, be aggressive and then change the subject to make it all my fault. And now, instead of allowing us to resolve the issue, you are going to follow him without finding the s cripture and read it in context?

I agree, without the address attached what he says sounds right but it isn't when I labor through and search out what he has said. I learned in the Army that to sell a lie all it needs is just enough truth to sound familiar.

I will go so far as to agree that it is likely that ez believes every word he preaches but belief here does not make right. Truth, has only one side and when the spirit within me tells me anything, and I honestly do mean any6thing, it had better align itself with the written Word of God or it is a lie, period.

I stand on the truth of God's Word and any time I find another Jim Jones or David Koresh, I will obey God and mark them to be known. ez is, likely, not there, yet.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Good to see you back Chopper, now I'll get out of the way.

 

[eddif]

Amos 8:1
Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.
2
And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

If you read Ezekiel you will find that judgement is finally come to the north and south of Israel, and nothing in their power will stop it.

However

The appearance of the Son of God will have the ability to change Israel.
Romans 11.25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The deliverer is none other than Jesus Christ the Righteous.

All of a sudden the captivity / dispersion of true Israel happens. The ability of salvation fo Jew and Gentile is accomplished in Messiah / Jesus. The disciples will receive Holy Spirit and become the apostles that shall become witnesses to the whole world. The middle wall of patrician is broken down and all of Ephesians II will be accomplished.

Back in Amos the Jews were done for, but in Christ there was hope. Eternal hope, and not temporal hope of II Chronicals 7:14 or the curse of II Chronicals 7:19-20

The gentile lady dog was included by crumbs due the puppies. Faith overcame the end of Jewish fruit, and the Gentile inclusion (faith in Christ and not faith in faith).

If Israel fruit had ended forever, prophecy would have basically ended. The time of heart and mind arrived at Pentecost. The oracles of God were applied to Jew and Gentile alike. Why do we still trip over the rubble of the broken down wall?

I vote for the better covenant. If I return to the first I crucify the Son of God anew.

eddif

 

[ezra]

Presently, I'm studying the history of Israel, or the Jewish people....So, the Old Covenant (OT) was written concerning Israel.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Now we come to the New Covenant (NT). As it was for Israel, so it is with the writings of the Apostles etc. They are a history of the early churches that got established. The letters by Paul was to specific churches. Each one received instruction in righteousness.

Here's my question. The Bible is a holy Book of history concerning Israel and the early churches. What makes you think that those words are for us, 2,000 years later? As 1 Corinthians 10:11 says.it was an example to those early churches, and to anyone who was alive at that time.

well in our adult s.s class we are in 1st Corinthians from about chapter 5 on it describes whats going on in the church land today especially chapter 7 its very much for us today.

 

[JohnD]

Thank you Rollo, my good friend. I am looking for Scripture that proves that the Bible's verses are for me today as well as those who lived in the first century who were receiving the letters and so on.

The verse you quoted can be argued that it is for the people of that time because there is no statement that's it for today.

All that existed at the time of the writings in the NT was the OT.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (though it does apply to NT as has been said it is present tense in the Greek).
1 Corinthians 15:3-4
Acts 17:11
Etc.

 

[ezra]

The whole Bible especially the New Covenant (NT)....I want Scripture that states that modern Christians are responsible for what is written to the Churches.

i just preached a message on responsibility . we are very responsible and i also am pretty sure you believe we are also.

 

[JohnD]

To my knowledge Dr. Chuck Missler coined the statement "The Bible is an integrated message system... ...the Old Testament contains the New Testament concealed, the New Testament contains the Old Testament revealed."

 

[Deborah13]

We must now oversee two of her older children, plus bring up her 11 year old Son Jordan of who she adopted. Our home has ceased being a quite retreat from busy stressful days.

Oh Wow Chopper, your life is going to change. God bless you and your wife for giving this young boy a good Christian home to grow up in.

 

[Deborah13]

Debroah,

Unfortunately you think that what I have said about judging someone's salvation was specific to one person, it wasn't.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Could you clarify what animosity you are referring to? I do not believe that there is any animosity between eddif and myself, nor is there any animosity that I can see in words of encouragement that I shared with eddif?

What is funny though is that he who has made himself and adversary to me can find nothing wrong with what I stated, and yet you see animosity and take up the chorus of presumption that I do not know the scriptures and that I should go study.

Lo, I come. In the volume of the book it is written of me. I am not made in the image of a book. I am created in the image of Christ. Lo, I come, for in the volume of the book it is written of me. How shall the righteousness of Christ and the Glory of God be manifest in your flesh when you would rather glory in the written word.

.

Hi ez, All the epistles either start or end with "Grace or Peace to the brethren." Communication between the brethren should be corporately in agreement and uplifting. Where is this Scripture?".How shall the righteousness of Christ and the Glory of God be manifest in your flesh when you would rather glory in the written word." I do glory in the written word. For man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matt. 4:4) I'm not against you. My calling and election is pastor/teacher. The Scriptures I quoted should have given you Spiritual foundation because they are true. This world is becoming completely anti-christian and so sinful that the Lord could come for us at any time . If we do not have the Spirit of Grace and peace in our exhortations. We hinder and grieve the Spirit. In what spirit did you send you last two post? Read them and see if they do not sound like a scolding to someone. I just responded to the tone that I got from the post. If it was not, I'm sorry I misunderstood it .

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[Douglas Summers]

And you couldn't see what sin was by just reading the New Testament? You couldn't receive the Gospel message and salvation without reading the old testament and especially Moses'?
How long did you study the old testament before you accepted the Gospel message, brought to you by the Holy Spirit?
Or are you saying that if you didn't have the old testament you would have forsaken the faith that you stood in?

Hi Deborah13, The Lord wrote the whole Bible for a reason. There is more to it than just salvation. If you did not understand what I wrote, I can not help it, it is Spiritual from beginning to end. The health of the body is dependent upon all it's parts. The things that you are concerned about are not of value to the hearer. In Luke 24: 13-31, Jesus quotes most of the OT so that they would know He was the Savior.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[eddif]

The bible:
1 As written text
2 Observing Jesus in action John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
3 Observing creation Romans 1:19-20
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
4 Gentiles without law Romans 2:14-15
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Others may follow.

The bible actually lists ways to know God. Written text is one way.

eddif