Bible Study Help! What does this mean....

[Walpole]

Agreed.
It seems very clear to me in reading Romans.
Thanks for the input.

I wasn't sure if you were disagreeing with me when you looped me into your post!

 

[GodsGrace]

I wasn't sure if you were disagreeing with me when you looped me into your post!

No. I agree with you.
You were on the thread that started this, so I thought to tag you in.

Your posts are always very good.

 

[Walpole]

No. I agree with you.
You were on the thread that started this, so I thought to tag you in.

Your posts are always very good.

Gotcha.

I enjoy your posts as well. They are well thought out. (Though I disagree with what you write about St. Augustine but chose to refrain from posting a refutation as I did not want to derail that thread!)

 

[Quantrill]

YES!!!!!

You just can't seem to accept this because you're using your own reasoning instead of what Paul tells us.



YES!!!



What comes first....
THE FALLEN NATURE
OR
SINNING???

The Fallen Nature....
and thus, we can have the fallen nature without having any sin.



I wrote to you regarding Romans 4:8.

Sorry. I have been warned of further 'violations' by me will result in a ban. I will not participate in your thread.

Quantrill

 

[PeterJens]

No Peter...
the simple question is:
Are we IMPUTED with Adam's sin?
Romans 5:12 says we are not and yet some here say that we are.
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

You have made me ask a slightly deeper question. The second death is always assumed to be because of sin.
When Ezekiel cried "I am not worthy" "unclean lips" there is a sense of contamination, making that which is holy unholy.
We simplify this into sinful behaviour, but maybe that is our mistake. If I say "sin" is the only thing that makes us unclean I am wrong, because the law describes many things that can make someone unclean. To ignore this and perform holy acts is sin, but being unclean requires cleansing.

So maybe what we are inheriting is Adams status of being unclean, separate, not in communion, unable to reconcile with the Father. Our language says we inherit the sinful nature, but maybe our language is wrong. Man without communion with God is mans nature unbounded or constrained by love, so will just destroy. It is Gods presence that makes love and life flow. Our natures may simply be a reflection of what dwells within and motivates us.

A common issue with the knowledge of good and evil, is the evil we know that could be could tempt us more than the good we could do, so are corrupted by just the knowledge itself. When I hold a knife in my hand I am very aware of how dangerous it is, and am careful. But this knowledge could me I take advantage, which in love I choose not to.

A common experience in war is the elation of beating ones enemy. This hurts the consciences of many, rather than realising it is true of any competitive situation, and encourages us to win. For some this knowledge original sin becaue no truly perfect person would feel or think these things. And there we have the dilemma of empathy and survival. To survive we need the whole mixture of feelings and knowledge, while to choose to follow love and be responsible.

If Paul was using "sin" as a summary description of this uncleaness, then all falls into place.
God bless you

 

[GodsGrace]

Gotcha.

I enjoy your posts as well. They are well thought out. (Though I disagree with what you write about St. Augustine but chose to refrain from posting a refutation as I did not want to derail that thread!)

Augustine has a lot to do with this....
It wouldn't be derailing.

 

[JLB]

If Romans 5:13 states very plainly that "SIN IS NOT IMPUTED WHEN THERE IS NO LAW"....
then we must accept the fact that before The Law (Moses) sin was not imputed to man.

I guess you didn’t read what I posted about this phrase.

Sin certainly was imputed to men, because there was a law.

That’s Paul’s point.

The Law by which made men guilty and therefore they received death, was the law of sin and death, which was the “parent” law to the law of Moses; the law from which the law of Moses was derived.


Abraham, learned about this law, directly from God, by faith, because he obeyed God’s command to “walk before Him and be blameless”.


Here is the result of walking with God in His Presence, in His Spirit, and receiving both grace (the ability to obey) and faith:

• because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:5

I will stop here, before this post gets too long.






JLB

 

[tdidymas]

I don't, however, Calvinists present "Regeneration" as a "Step toward" being born again, but not actually getting saved. IOt's their theological "Work Around" for their Total Depravity concept.

I must not be a "Calvinist" according to your definition, then. In my view, regeneration = born again. In my readings of Reformed Theology, I've never seen any "work around" for Total Depravity like you're talking about.

SO is an "infant" still DEAD spiritually, and hell bound when they die prematurely??

Spiritually dead doesn't mean hell-bound in regard to infants. God saves them because of His mercy. But if you have to be legal about it, one might say they haven't sinned as yet, or one might even say their sins are forgiven until the time that God deems them culpable (I forgot the term for it). That's all speculation and open for debate.

Because of HIS LUST. Simple as that. Play "Word games" if you please.

Jesus' lust (that is, desire) was not corrupted by the fallen human nature like the rest of mankind, since He was "separate from sinners."

So, in fact HE WAS NOT tempted in every respect as WE ARE.

Not in the way you want that to mean. He was tempted in every kind of way that is common to humans. Namely, to exercise his own will against God's will, which caused him to sweat blood the night before His arrest. Also, when He was driven into the wilderness by the Spirit, He was tempted with greed (to own the nations), with pride (show of miraculous power), and with fleshly satisfaction (He was hungry). Yet, He confidently resisted the devil because His divine nature kept Him pure. Those are the kinds of ways that are common to man - desires of the flesh, desires of the eyes, and the pride of life, according to 1 John 2:15-17.

But it seems like what you want is a savior that is tempted as much as you are in the specific things you are tempted about. No, that's not the savior the scripture describes. In fact, one's set of sins they fall in are not the same as those of other people. Some have trouble with drugs, others with fame, etc. But all of those are common to man in the general sense, as Paul says in 2 Cor. 10. All sins stem from man's disconnectedness from God, that is, his self-centered conceit.

 

[tdidymas]

Yes, that is your problem.

This response doesn't help.

What text?

You should already know the scripture I'm talking about - Rom. 4:11, 22

Your 'distinction' doesn't matter. What distinction does Scripture say.

I already explained that in the context of 4:8, imputation of sin is on those not forgiven for sins they already committed. that's not the same as imputing sin prior to the acts. How can you say this doesn't matter? Of course it does.

No, if you want to find it, you can. If you don't want to, you won't. If you're that lazy to 'wade through' then don't participate.

Quantrill

Your responses like this don't help. If you can't explain yourself or refute what I'm saying, then either admit you can't, or don't respond.

 

[Randy]

Agreed on everything you've stated.

Man will have no excuse --- but for HIS OWN sins.
Do you think we're respsonsible for Adam's sin?
Or are we just affected by it?

Just affected by it.

 

[tdidymas]

Your question in 2 is exactly what we cannot agree on, even though it is explicit in Romans 12-14 that Adam's sin is NOT imputed to us.
ONLY the EFFECT of his sin is.....

JLB has introduced a new idea to the subject matter, which is the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

The Law of Sin and Death could only have come about after Moses since Paul states that being under the Law could only bring death because we are not able to keep it....this is the law of sin and death.

But it is after Moses.

Romans 8:1-4
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The Law is the law given to Moses...

1. Were you talking to me? I thought you agreed with me on the matter, so I'm confused. I was saying that I thought the sin nature was a result of Adam's sin, not an imputation of sin. Are we on the same page?

2. I don't agree with his idea that the law Paul is talking about in 5:13 is the "law of sin and death." 8:2 is talking about a principle in operation, not about a written code.

3. Yes, The Law is that law given to Moses which he wrote down. However, keep in mind that similar laws did already exist long before that, and was passed down through the generations. Even Cain had a law in his conscience before any "thou shalt not commit murder." That fact shows up in his lie and his fear. But Paul is using the law of Moses as a tangible item to support his argument. His argument still holds for any law that one has a conscience for, who believes it's the will of God. He talks about gentiles having law in their conscience in Rom. 2. Also, he says that before Moses death reigned, because the wages of sin is death. Therefore, his statement "sin is not imputed when there is no law" cannot mean that sin was not imputed to people who committed sins prior to Moses.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What does Genesis 3:17 state?

Genesis 3:14-19
14The LORD God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;

15And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

16To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”

17Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.

18“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;

19By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”


All of the above are curses...
curses NEVER were for man's benefit, but a penalty for not keeping his part of a covenant....

Except the Biblically ONLY the "Ground", and the Serpent are STATED to be cursed. all the rest of it are "inconveniences".

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Guess you've never borne a baby.

(chuckle) nope, men don't do that. I've only Raised 4 of 'em. What do you think that has to do with anything???

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Are you saying Jesus was born with the sin nature??

Jesus was born WITH A HUMAN NATURE, like us. He had to be in order to be TEMPTED in every respect AS WE ARE. The difference in Jesus was that He never let his lust "Conceive" and become SIN (James 1).

 

[tdidymas]

Yes, that is your problem.

What text?

Your 'distinction' doesn't matter. What distinction does Scripture say.



No, if you want to find it, you can. If you don't want to, you won't. If you're that lazy to 'wade through' then don't participate.

Quantrill

Ok, I read all your posts starting at this link:

Paul, James and Sotereology

Give me a verse stating you deserve hell just for existing. Only a megalomaniac god would issue such a decree. I feel terrible for your children that their own father believes they deserve hell after having brought them into the world. I invite you to learn about Jesus Christ. He is our Good...

christianforums.net

In that link, you claim that people before Moses did not die because of their sin, but rather died because of Adam's sin. IOW, God did not impute their sins to them, but rather imputed Adam's sin to them. Did I get you right here?

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

Hi CR,,,
Welcome to the forum...it's nice to have you here, you sound like a thinker.
I would not agree that the first commandment or law was when God told Adam not to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree.
God told Adam a specific command...it was not told to any other person but Adam.
Romans 5:12-14 tells us that until Moses there was no Law.



God put it there for a reason.
Do we know what the reason is?
Did God know Adam would disobey? (I believe He did, of course).
But God did everything anyway --- we do not know why, except we know that He creates.


The Law was given to Moses....that's all it means.
But physical death still cursed man since Adam was meant to be immortal.
From the time Adam sinned,,,all men died because all men sinned....
They sinned and they died.
Romans 5:14
Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come.


Where does the bible tell us God has predestined, foreordained, everything - even our lives.
I do believe John Calvin said this...not God.



Do you have to kick your dog for him to know you?
God could have revealed Himself to us in any method He so chose.

However, from the beginning God knew man would disobey, and already from the beginning He had a plan in place so that those WHO SO CHOSE could be made children of God and still be saved.
Genesis 3:15
15And I will cause hostility between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring.
He will strike your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

The HE above is Jesus
The YOU above is satan



Judas played his part.
Did God USE Judas,,,,or did God purposefully plan for him to betray Jesus?
There is no way for us to know this.
There MAY BE some times throughout the history of the Old and New Testament that God actually did predestine something to happen...
but how I understand it is that God uses persons to achieve His purpose.

Like a football game.
Each move is individually decided by the FREE WILL of each player, or players in unison.

But God will achieve His purpose and make that football game end with the winner HE desires to win.

Man retains his free will.
God retains His sovereignty.

There is no big mystery between free will and God's sovereignty.
God is a mighty God and is not afraid of giving to mankind their free will.

There are a lot of points there and I can't find how to split your reply into parts to address each one.

There are numerous passages that inform us God foreordained all things as Sovereign Lord.

A few examples:
Acts 2:23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross.

Acts 4:28They carried out what Your hand and will had decided beforehand would happen.


Romans 8:29
Isaiah 45:7

And of course The Lamb's Book of Life, filled with the names of God's elect before the foundation of the world.

In light of that we can have no free will. Even our choices are of God and his planning.

Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.

Also I would disagree that the divine law of God did not exist before Moses.
God's divine law was found in the Adamic covenant, the Noahic covenant, and the Abrahamic covenant.

If God's command not to eat of the fruit was not a law, then even though sin entered the world through Adam after he disobeyed God and did eat, sin could not have been imputed on Adam or Eve. Nor could anyone sin until Moses.

"For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." (Romans 5:13-14)

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

Hi Chocolate Roadrunner and welcome to CF.

It was the temptation of Satan that Adam fell in disobedience believing a lie over that which God told him not to do, not because God planted the tree of good and evil.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on those like Adam, Pharaoh, the Egyptians and all those who walk in disobedience. God gave Pharaoh and the Egyptians a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but they rejected God.

When people think of the law they are seeing the 613 Mosaic laws That Moses received on Mt, Sinai that were specifically written to the Jews as from Adam to Moses their was no such thing as a Jew or a Gentile. Abraham was the first to be called a Hebrew in Genesis 14:13.

Beginning with Genesis 2:16 the Babylonian Talmud listed six commandments given first to Adam and then again to Noah after the flood referred to as the Noahic laws.

Noahic Laws:
Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

God is Sovereign and Omniscient.

I think we have to consider the 6 days of creation wherein God saw all that he created and judged it very good, not perfect.

Why would Sovereign Omniscient God, Psalm 139:1–6, Isaiah 46:10, plant a tree in the center of the garden and then make it off limits?
In his Omniscience, if he wanted Adam and Eve to remain unblemished he would not have planted that tree.
But he did.
That then tracks back to God having predestined all things.
Because all that is predestined according to God's will and plan and for his glory. Psalms 19:1
Romans 11:36

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

I think the answer would be yes. After all, Adam knew God in a very personal way, right? Had he or none of us not rebelled as he/we did, we, his ancestors, would still be living in that very same relationship. As it is now, most do not know God. Oh, they know of Him but they do not know Him.

Yes, had the fall not been predestined we would all have that relationship and contact with God as Adam and Eve did.


But God let Satan live after the war in heaven and made him Lord of this world seeking souls to devour.
So now, God's Lambs Book of Life tells us he has predetermined his elect by name.
And all because of one tree and a serpent God let enter Eden. Knowing what was to come to pass because it was his plan.

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

True. They Died Spiritually when they chose satan over God, and did what they were told not to.

That would be an assumption. Babies have no SIN - until they figure out how to, and DO IT like all humans do. SO are you using the Calvie version of "Regeneration" or the "Regeneration" = "Born Again" version that others use??

Nope it didn't. Adam followed the "James process just the same as everybody else - drawn away of HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. And like everybody else he fell like a ton of bricks. Jesus was subjected to the exact SAME process as a human man, but DIDN'T let His lust conceive.

If he "was not inclined (as a human) to SIN", then He WAS NOT tempted in every respect as we are.

They did not possess the requisite knowledge to choose to obey or disobey God . Because they did not possess knowledge or right or wrong. Therein they could not make a conscious choice to follow Satan by disobeying God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I guess you didn’t read what I posted about this phrase.

Sin certainly was imputed to men, because there was a law.

That’s Paul’s point.

The Law by which made men guilty and therefore they received death, was the law of sin and death, which was the “parent” law to the law of Moses; the law from which the law of Moses was derived.


Abraham, learned about this law, directly from God, by faith, because he obeyed God’s command to “walk before Him and be blameless”.


Here is the result of walking with God in His Presence, in His Spirit, and receiving both grace (the ability to obey) and faith:

• because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:5

I will stop here, before this post gets too long.






JLB

Don't you believe the law of sin and death came after the Law of Moses?

Romans 8:2 NLT
And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death.

Paul says that The Law is good
Romans 7:12
12But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.

It shows us that we are sinners ... he does not say the Law is bad.
Romans 7:7b
12But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.

Paul says the Law of sin killed him. It is the law of sin and death.
Romans 7:11
11Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me.

What law existed at the time of Adam except the specific commandment that was given to him?