Bible Study Help! What does this mean....

[GodsGrace]

Right.
So hurry up and get out there and start baptizing babies...

Oh Lord help us.

 

[for_his_glory]

God is Sovereign and Omniscient.

I think we have to consider the 6 days of creation wherein God saw all that he created and judged it very good, not perfect.

Why would Sovereign Omniscient God, Psalm 139:1–6, Isaiah 46:10, plant a tree in the center of the garden and then make it off limits?
In his Omniscience, if he wanted Adam and Eve to remain unblemished he would not have planted that tree.
But he did.
That then tracks back to God having predestined all things.
Because all that is predestined according to God's will and plan and for his glory. Psalms 19:1
Romans 11:36

Was it God's fault that Adam disobeyed Him or was it Adam who chose to disobey God's command. Temptations are always being placed before us, but chose you this day in whom you will serve.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

"Life in the fast lane doesn't have to be a rat race."

A rare quote by Rollo Tamasi.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I didn't say having kids is a curse.

I said THE PAIN involved in birthing them is a curse given to Eve and thus every woman.

No "blocks" available till recently.
Much pain anyway.
And sometimes, death.
Especially in past times.

NO CURSE was ever pronounced on Adam OR Eve. There were, however consequences for their actions.

 

[GodsGrace]

NO CURSE was ever pronounced on Adam OR Eve. There were, however consequences for their actions.

Whatever you say Bob..

 

[GodsGrace]

"Life in the fast lane doesn't have to be a rat race."

A rare quote by Rollo Tamasi.

You're in the fast lane?
I've moved one lane over.
It's full of turtles here.

 

[GodsGrace]

NO CURSE was ever pronounced on Adam OR Eve. There were, however consequences for their actions.

BTW
Did you see my post to you, no. 92?

 

[tdidymas]

Yes sir, you are reading his post right.


He may be unable to answer you right at the moment.


What are your thoughts, about what he believes about God not imputing people’s sin to them?




JLB

There is the same theme running through all his posts, that prior to Moses, God did not impute sins on anyone, and that those people died because God imputed Adam's sin to them. I find that very far-fetched. The reason is that laws did exist prior to Moses, and when Paul is talking about the law in that context, he is talking about law in general. So when Paul gets to "the wages of sin is death," he is talking about any sin breaking any law, whether known or not, because he is talking about a principle of sin operating in human nature. So the way I read Paul is that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world - those under law, and those under grace. And those under law God imputes their sin to them, and those under grace He imputes righteousness.

So the issue is how to interpret Paul's meaning of "sin is not imputed when there is no law." I don't believe that Paul is limiting his definition of "law" to what Moses wrote. It's as if he is making an exaggerative philosophical hypothesis, since he contrasts it with the reality of death in that period. It's like saying, "ok, you say that God would be unjust to condemn someone if they are ignorant of what His will is; I'll go with you there by saying sin is not imputed when there is no law, that is, when people are ignorant of God's will."

And then the contrast - "Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses..." - IOW, the reality is that God either imputed their sins to them regardless of whether they knew His will or not, or their death was the result of the fall. I don't believe that Paul thought there was no law before Moses. If my measly self can show from scripture that laws existed, and people knew them, then Paul would have certainly known that. Therefore, I think it is not reasonable to interpret the statement "sin is not imputed when there is no law" as people dying before Moses due to imputation of Adam's sin. Certainly as a result of the fall, as a result of fallen human nature, as a result of the sin nature. But not because of any imputation of Adam's sin.

However, I should qualify this. If imputing Adam's sin means that all Adam's progeny are born without the indwelling Spirit, then I would have to agree with the idea of imputing Adam's sin to the human race. I guess it boils down to what is the definition of imputation, and what did Paul mean by it. If imputation of Adam's sin causes the human race to be guilty enough to lack the indwelling Spirit (as opposed to merely a natural process of inheriting the sinful nature), then I would have to reconsider my position. Since I'm not an expert on the subject, I still need to do more study.

 

[JLB]

There is the same theme running through all his posts, that prior to Moses, God did not impute sins on anyone, and that those people died because God imputed Adam's sin to them.

Yes. Same theme, that comes from a misunderstanding.

• ”God did not impute (the individual person’s) sin to them“

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned Romans 5:12-13

This is false and comes from a misunderstanding of the peculiar way Paul makes his point, in the above verse, by using a certain linguistic device that comes across as “backwards“ or the opposite of what point he is making.

Almost what we would call a “backhanded insult” meant to “facetiously“ make a point.


Example:

A father who was waiting for his teenage son to come home from high school, one afternoon and was late, sees him pull up and goes out to see what was the problem because the son was driving his father’s car.


The young man walks up to the house holding a piece of paper.


”Dad you are not going to believe what happened. I got a speeding ticket for no reason. Was coming home and I took such and such road because of traffic, and was driving along when this police officer seemed to come out of no where, and said I was speeding, and gave me this ticket for no reason, because there was no speed limit signs that said 20 MPH.

• Son, people don’t receive tickets where there is no speed law.

The evidence that there was a specific speed law on that road, was the ticket in his son’s hand.


The evidence that there was “a law” before the law of Moses, is the death; which came about by the law of sin and death.

• and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Adam’s sin did indeed spread to all his offspring and thus death, because all sinned; the sin in our flesh entices us to gratify its lustful cravings.


The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.


Because Adam’s sin spread to all flesh through “procreation” doesn’t mean God imputed Adam’s sin to all mankind.

It happened automatically. Just like a cow who ate grass that was induced with toxic fertilizer. It will be passed on to the calf.



Each person was indeed imputed (accounted) with sin, because all sinned. Not after the likeness of Adam’s sin, but for a myriad other types of sin.


Examples:

Cain
The people of Noah’s day
Sodom and Gommorah.

and on and on ….






JLB

 

[tdidymas]

Yes. Same theme, that comes from a misunderstanding.

• ”God did not impute (the individual person’s) sin to them“

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned Romans 5:12-13

This is false and comes from a misunderstanding of the peculiar way Paul makes his point, in the above verse, by using a certain linguistic device that comes across as “backwards“ or the opposite of what point he is making.

Almost what we would call a “backhanded insult” meant to “facetiously“ make a point.


Example:

A father who was waiting for his teenage son to come home from high school, one afternoon and was late, sees him pull up and goes out to see what was the problem because the son was driving his father’s car.


The young man walks up to the house holding a piece of paper.


”Dad you are not going to believe what happened. I got a speeding ticket for no reason. Was coming home and I took such and such road because of traffic, and was driving along when this police officer seemed to come out of no where, and said I was speeding, and gave me this ticket for no reason, because there was no speed limit signs that said 20 MPH.

• Son, people don’t receive tickets where there is no speed law.

The evidence that there was a specific speed law on that road, was the ticket in his son’s hand.


The evidence that there was “a law” before the law of Moses, is the death; which came about by the law of sin and death.

• and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Adam’s sin did indeed spread to all his offspring and thus death, because all sinned; the sin in our flesh entices us to gratify its lustful cravings.


The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.


Because Adam’s sin spread to all flesh through “procreation” doesn’t mean God imputed Adam’s sin to all mankind.

It happened automatically. Just like a cow who ate grass that was induced with toxic fertilizer. It will be passed on to the calf.



Each person was indeed imputed (accounted) with sin, because all sinned. Not after the likeness of Adam’s sin, but for a myriad other types of sin.


Examples:

Cain
The people of Noah’s day
Sodom and Gommorah.

and on and on ….






JLB

I've read further on the matter, and came up with this:
After reading this:

https://www.hopeopc.com/assets/2016/04/12_imputation_of_adams_sin_handout.pdf

I can see how the subject requires very deep insight. What I noticed was in 5:18 it says "many were made sinners," which implies that God changed the nature of man at the time of Adam's sin. The removal of the indwelling Spirit as the prime motivator of desire and actions is a changing of the nature, and a corrupting of it. Man was not meant to be autonomous and self-determining, because the primary motivator is his fleshly nature. Man was meant to house the indwelling Spirit to be his primary motivator. This is what Christ restores to man, but not all the way until the resurrection.

Therefore, if God's removal of the Holy Spirit from the process of natural reproduction is the act of imputing Adam's sin to the human race, then I agree with the idea of that imputation. I believe the Bible teaches the inheritance of the sinful nature, and is proven also in reality.

This is Jonathan Edwards' refutation of objections to the doctrine:

The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended:

The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, Evidences of it's Truth produced, and Arguments to the Contrary answered.

www.mountainretreatorg.net

I noticed in it he puts much emphasis on the oneness of Adam with his progeny. I can think of some examples in which other people are considered one with the one in question. Examples:
1. Long before Levi existed, he is considered (by the writer of Hebrews) to have paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham.
2. Achan sinned, and 36 people died because of it, and his whole family and all his animals were stoned to death.
If we consider the federal head idea, then some of scripture makes more sense, such as "the husband is head of the wife." So Achan being the head of his family, his sin was then imputed to his whole family and all his property. In addition, his singular sin was imputed to the whole nation, so that God was no longer with them in the battle at Ai, and 36 soldiers died in the battle. I suppose if we studied this with due diligence, that we would find many other cases where a person was considered a representative for others, so that if they sinned, then the sin was accounted to the whole group. In the NT there are cases where one person in a crowd spoke up, and the crowd was with them, so it is rendered "they said...," which is an expression implying representation.

So, I would think that if Paul is presenting the idea that Christ is our federal head, or representative, that we have an identity in Him, and so His righteous acts are imputed to us. And if he is comparing that representation with Adam's representation of the human race, then it makes sense that Adam's sin is imputed to the human race, since he is the federal head, and represents us. And if the reality of the sin nature proves that God is not with the human race for the sake of righteousness and eternal life, then it is showing that Adam's sin is imputed to the human race.

My conclusion, then, is to accept the idea since I've had an adjustment to my knowledge on the subject. It may be that the doctrine is misunderstood because it is not considered in the context of the nature of sin. If the idea of imputation is isolated from the context of the nature of sin and death (which Paul calls 'the law of...'), then someone might object that it seems unjust. But "God is just, and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus" on the positive side of imputation, and therefore there is a negative side also, that the sin of Adam is imputed to his progeny. Although it is not expressly stated in the text, I think it is implied in Rom. 5:19.

 

[JLB]

The removal of the indwelling Spirit as the prime motivator of desire and actions is a changing of the nature, and a corrupting of it.

Amen. That was well said

 

[JLB]

I suppose if we studied this with due diligence, that we would find many other cases where a person was considered a representative for others, so that if they sinned, then the sin was accounted to the whole group.

Amen

 

[JLB]

therefore there is a negative side also, that the sin of Adam is imputed to his progeny. Although it is not expressly stated in the text, I think it is implied in Rom. 5:19.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Romans 5:12

It certainly is implied here.

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

Was it God's fault that Adam disobeyed Him or was it Adam who chose to disobey God's command. Temptations are always being placed before us, but chose you this day in whom you will serve.

It was God's will that Adam ate of the fruit , since Adam did not possess awareness to make an informed choice in matters of obedience or disobedience.

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

Not true. Adam wasn't an IDIOT. He KNEW what God had told him NOT to do (what God's law was) and he KNEW the penalty for breaking God's Law (death). SO Adam let his lust conceive, and become SINFUL ACTION - and Died (spiritually) when he did. Just like every one of us do also.

Of course Adam wasn't an idiot. He was an innocent. Who had no knowledge of good nor evil. Ergo, he could not make an informed choice of obey God, do good, or disobey God, consent to the leading of evil, because Adam did not know consequence. Which arrives with understanding of the differences between the good or the bad.

Once Adam and Eve ate of the fruit they became like God, knowing hood and evil. Which is why God expelled them from the garden. Do they would not eat of the fruit of the tree of life and be immortal in the flesh.

Then, generations after, God sent himself to atone for the sinful state he placed upon the elect of the human race, so we would be immortal once our fledh was dead.

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

THIS is how you split any post.
Go to the end of the sentence you wish to comment...
Just press ENTER and it'll break up as I did above.

Thank you.

Don't want this to turn into a reformed theory thread. We have a few of those going on.
If you check the THEOLOGY forum, you'll find I'm doing a series on why calvinism is not biblical.
I'm doing T.U.L.I.P. and I'm up to the I, which will be next, as soon as I have an hour or so.
Check it out. However, I'm not responding to posts there...

I'll just say this:
GOD FOREKNEW everything.
He did not predestine everything.

Of course he did. That's why about 27%, give of take, of God's word is prophecy.
In Christ we too have been claimed as God's own possession, since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will .

I think you mean the Edenic Covenant....not sure.
Which laws were in the Adamic, Noahic and Abrahamic covenants?

The Edenic covenant is the first part of the Adamic Covenant, which is in two parts and are God's promise to Adam.
Adam violated that covenant when he ate of the fruit and sin and death entered the world.

The second part of the Adamic Covenant pertains to God's response to violating the Edenic covenant.
The enmity between Eve and Satan, pain during child birth , etc...Crush Satan's head ,bruise the heel.

THe Noahic Covenant contains the 7 Noahide laws that pertains to all of humanity descended from the family of Noah.

1. Do Not Deny God
2. Do Not Blaspheme God
3. Do Not Murder
4. Do Not Engage in Incestuous, Adulterous or Homosexual Relationships.
5. Do Not Steal
6. Do Not Eat of a Live Animal
7. Establish Courts/Legal System to Ensure Law Obedience

The Abraham I Covenant, Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The Abrahsamic Covenant carried over the 7 Noahide laws.

Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no-one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
(Galatians 3: 6-14, NIV)

Sin was imputed to Adam.
HE sinned. Sin is imputed to the one that commits the sin.
I agree that sin was not imputed to anyone until Moses and The Law.


Agreed.

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

I agree with all you've said except the part about Adam's sin being imputed to the entire human race due to federal headship.

If Romans 5:13 states very plainly that "SIN IS NOT IMPUTED WHEN THERE IS NO LAW"....
then we must accept the fact that before The Law (Moses) sin was not imputed to man.

You had asked about Abraham and Levi when Levi was not even born yet.
I can't think of this as imputation, but it's not the subject so I won't spend too much time on this.

You also asked why I believe that Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us and our sins are imputed to Him and I don't know if I ever answered you.

The reason is that we personally, did not CHOOSE to disobey God in the Garden.
It is through Adam that we are affected with his sin...(but not imputed with it).

Instead we CHOOSE to accept the free gift of Jesus which is for our salvation.
Our sins are actually (all sins - past present and future) imputed to Him...
He became sin for us...He who had no sin...
And we are imputed with His righteousness so that we can be declared right, justified, before God.
We are made right with God through Jesus....this is imputation. WE get credit for what HE did.
What HE did is reckoned to us.

We suffer the affects of Adam's sin, as tdidymas explained perfectly, better than I ever could.

The effect of Adam's disobedience of a direct command is that we are born with
the sin nature
the flesh
concupicsense
tendency toward sin
......
or whatever other word you care to use depending on what denomination you attend.

Each of us is only responsible for our own sins...
not for the sins of others.
Adam is a different person from us...he is responsible for HIS sinning.

BUT,,,,his sinning caused all of mankind to fall....

I don't know how this could be made more clear.


tdidymas
for_his_glory
JLB
PeterJens
Bob Carabbio
WIP
Chocolate Roadrunner
WalterandDebbie
Christ_empowered
Walpole
jasonc
Randy

(hope I got everyone)

Why do we suffer for that sin of Adam? When he is the father of the human race?
"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin. 2 Kings 14:6

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Of course Adam wasn't an idiot. He was an innocent. Who had no knowledge of good nor evil.

And apparently TOO STUPID to know that when God said: "DON'T EAT OF THAT TREE, because you'll DIE IF YOU DO", it wasn't a good idea to eat of that tree.

Is THAT your concept of Adam and Eve???

 

[tdidymas]

I don't know if you read my last post here (it was to someone else):

Bible Study - Help! What does this mean....

Right. So hurry up and get out there and start baptizing babies... Oh Lord help us.

christianforums.net

I just wanted to point out that if God imputed one man's sin to others, as in the case of Achan, then it's a small step to the imputation of Adam's sin to the human race, since Adam was the head of the human race. Achan's whole family was stoned to death and all of his animals, and his property was burned, because of that one man's sin. Also 36 soldiers died because of his sin. So that's an example of a sin of a man being attributed to others, as a consequence of that sin.

Here is the implication: It begs the question, why isn't anyone in the human race born with the indwelling Spirit? Didn't God breathe into Adam the indwelling Spirit, that is, the spirit (breath, ruach) of life? Then why are people born in spiritual death? It seems that God made a decision to let Adam's progeny exist without the indwelling Spirit, and that decision is due to God imputing Adam's sin to his progeny, as a consequence to his sin.

Is this a reasonable hypothesis in your assessment?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Why do we suffer for that sin of Adam? When he is the father of the human race?
"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin. 2 Kings 14:6

WE don't. You already provided the answer in your cite.

The "Creation" (ground / environment) was CURSED - made subject to vanity. MAN was never CURSED. We, because of our HUMAN NATURE (same as Adam had) will willfully go into SIN as soon as we get the chance to do so. It's got nothing to do with ADAM. We don't need anything from HIM to be sinful. We successfully do it on our own without a problem.