The Catholic Church.

[GodsGrace]

That's your opinion only. As I pointed out "Church" (capitalized) doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible. It does appear elsewhere of course, such as in "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" and "The Church of Satan"

I give up!
But I love you anyway!

 

[jaybo]

BTW, look up the various churches in your area (or anywhere). Every single church (the institution/building, etc.) is capitalized. Examples: "Grace Community Church", "First Presbyterian Church", "Holy Trinity Orthodox Church", "St Elias The Prophet Greek Orthodox Church", "St John the Baptist Catholic Church", "Church of Christ", "First Baptist Church", "Gospel Life Community Church", "Holy Family Episcopal Church", etc., etc., etc.

So your statement...
Church is the Body of Christ.
church is the institution/building, etc.
... is wrong.

 

[Fastfredy0]

What I mean by "original Church" is the Church that Jesus built when He said, "On this rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."

That seems to fall far short of a definition to me. Most definitions don't use the word to be defined in the definition. Your definition didn't address the function or description or characteristics of "the church":
is it made up of O.T. saints ?
when did it start ?
Is the church is made up of all the saints? ...(some call it the invisible church)
Is it physical buildings that are replaced by other buildings?
Is it the R.C.C. ?
What are the powers of the church? Can it determine and/or interpret God's will?
yahda, yahda ...

I like jaybo s definition: "There is one church and one church only: the body of Christ." Is that what you mean?

 

[WIP]

I like @jaybo s definition: "There is one church and one church only: the body of Christ." Is that what you mean?

Yes.

 

[Bethel]

Catholic by definition means all encompassing. This is just my guess but in 110 AD the term Catholic probably was a pretty accurate description of the Church (capital C intentional).

For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC.

Notice that #3-5 below..., are a complete fabrication created by the Catholic Church, and are not found in the NT< or in any document related to the bible, that exists, unless its a CC creation.

They just made it up.

Also noteworthy is to note Catholic festival days or days that celebrate Mary.
The CC has more days of celebration for Mary, then then they have days that celebrate Jesus.
-
"
""""""""""The theological development of devotion to Mary begins with Justin Martyr (100–165) who articulated Mary's role in salvation history as the Second Eve. This was followed up by Irenæus, whom Herbert Thurston calls "the first theologian of the Virgin Mother".

The Church's magisterium has identified these teachings about Mary as = dogmas of faith.

1.) These include belief in her virginal conception of Jesus, taught by the First Council of Nicaea in 325.

2.) The Council of Ephesus in 431 applied to her the description "Mother of God", (Theotokos).

3.) The perpetual virginity of Mary was taught by the ecumenical Second Council of Constantinople in 553, which described her as "ever virgin", and was expressed also, by the Lateran synod of October 649,

4.) The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception states that from the first moment of her existence Mary was without original sin. This doctrine was proclaimed a dogma ex cathedra by Pope Pius IX in 1854.

5.) The dogma of the Assumption of Mary, defined by Pope Pius XII in 1950, states that, at the end of her earthly life, her body did not suffer corruption but was assumed into heaven and became a heavenly body, """""

 

[jaybo]

For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC.

Notice that #3-5 below..., are a complete fabrication created by the Catholic Church, and are not found in the NT< or in any document related to the bible, that exists, unless its a CC creation.

They just made it up.

Also noteworthy is to note Catholic festival days or days that celebrate Mary.
The CC has more days of celebration for Mary, then then they have days that celebrate Jesus.
-
"
""""""""""The theological development of devotion to Mary begins with Justin Martyr (100–165) who articulated Mary's role in salvation history as the Second Eve. This was followed up by Irenæus, whom Herbert Thurston calls "the first theologian of the Virgin Mother".

The Church's magisterium has identified four teachings about Mary as dogmas of faith.

1.) These include belief in her virginal conception of Jesus, taught by the First Council of Nicaea in 325.

2.) The Council of Ephesus in 431 applied to her the description "Mother of God", (Theotokos).

3.) The perpetual virginity of Mary was taught by the ecumenical Second Council of Constantinople in 553, which described her as "ever virgin", and was expressed also, by the Lateran synod of October 649,

4.) The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception states that from the first moment of her existence Mary was without original sin.[57] This doctrine was proclaimed a dogma ex cathedra by Pope Pius IX in 1854.

5.) The dogma of the Assumption of Mary, defined by Pope Pius XII in 1950, states that, at the end of her earthly life, her body did not suffer corruption but was assumed into heaven and became a heavenly body, """""

I really feel sorry for the people that buy into these fabrications. I thank God for the truth as revealed in Scripture, not addendums made up by "holy" men.

 

[Walpole]

Different denominations view communion differently.
If someone doesn't believe they are receiving the body and blood of Christ, then they do not agree with transubstantiation and these are those that are not allowed to receive communion.

If YOU do, but belong to a different church,,,you can receive communion.

Communion just means IN COMMUNION WITH...
If a person is not in communion with the teaching of the CC,,,then how can they receive the host?
It would be like disrespecting the CC's teaching.

Maybe Walpole would like to add to this.

The Early Fathers that learned from the Apostles, believed what the CC teaches.
Even Luther did.

I don't know the history,,,but I believe it might have been changed just so the reformers could remove themselves from all Catholic teachings.
Not sure.

It's important to remember that not even all Catholics can receive communion. Right from the beginning, there were principles and conditions set forth for authentic reception of the Eucharist. (cf. 1 Cor 10 and 11)

 

[GodsGrace]

It's important to remember that not even all Catholics can receive communion. Right from the beginning, there were principles and conditions set forth for authentic reception of the Eucharist. (cf. 1 Cor 10 and 11)

Right.
I hope WIP Sees this, but I think he already knows that there are conditions even for Catholics to receive communion.

 

[WIP]

Right.
I hope WIP Sees this, but I think he already knows that there are conditions even for Catholics to receive communion.

Yes, I am aware. There are even some Lutheran associations that do not allow nonmembers to partake. LCMS or the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod is one. Even though I am a member of a Lutheran congregation but because I am not a member of the LCMS, I would not be allowed to share Holy Communion with an LCMS congregation.

 

[jaybo]

Yes, I am aware. There are even some Lutheran associations that do not allow nonmembers to partake. LCMS or the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod is one. Even though I am a member of a Lutheran congregation but because I am not a member of the LCMS, I would not be allowed to share Holy Communion with an LCMS congregation.

That is absurd. At the Passover dinner Jesus shared the bread and wine with Judas, even though He knew that Judas would betray Him.

Excluding someone from partaking of the bread and wine is a serious sin IMHO.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Excluding someone from partaking of the bread and wine is a serious sin IMHO.

I forbid my sons from partaking of communion until they made a statement of faith. Did I sin? My dad did the same with me.

 

[jaybo]

I forbid my sons from partaking of communion until they made a statement of faith. Did I sin? My dad did the same with me.

How can anyone answer that question? How old were your sons? Did they make a statement of faith just to please you or did they truly mean it? Most kids seek their parents' approval so will do what's asked of them.

 

[Fastfredy0]

How old were your sons?

Between age of 0 and 7 (my guess is 7) I did not allow them to take communion because I had no substantial reason to believe they were 'believers' and I do not believe that non-believers should partake of communion and furthermore believe that partaking of communion by non-believers is a sin for one must be IN CHRIST to have communion with Christ. So, to the best of my abilities, I stopped them from potentially sinning.

Did they make a statement of faith to please you

Who knows the spirit of other men (boys) other than themselves. That being said, I took what I considered reasonable steps to form an opinion as to born again status. That opinion was used to stop or permit their participation in communion.

So, did I commit a serious sin?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Between age of 0 and 7 (my guess is 7) I did not allow them to take communion because I had no substantial reason to believe they were 'believers' and I do not believe that non-believers should partake of communion and furthermore believe that partaking of communion by non-believers is a sin for one must be IN CHRIST to have communion with Christ. So, to the best of my abilities, I stopped them from potentially sinning.


Who knows the spirit of other men (boys) other than themselves. That being said, I took what I considered reasonable steps to form an opinion as to born again status. That opinion was used to stop or permit their participation in communion.

So, did I commit a serious sin?

Very interesting statement
So from ages of 0-7, were they in fear of hell if they were to die?
Were they on their own at the age of 8?
Many questions could be asked.

 

[jaybo]

Between age of 0 and 7 (my guess is 7) I did not allow them to take communion because I had no substantial reason to believe they were 'believers' and I do not believe that non-believers should partake of communion and furthermore believe that partaking of communion by non-believers is a sin for one must be IN CHRIST to have communion with Christ. So, to the best of my abilities, I stopped them from potentially sinning.


Who knows the spirit of other men (boys) other than themselves. That being said, I took what I considered reasonable steps to form an opinion as to born again status. That opinion was used to stop or permit their participation in communion.

So, did I commit a serious sin?

Well, I don't know about a serious sin. Only you, in prayer, can answer that.

On another point, I don't agree that "partaking of communion by non-believers is a sin for one must be IN CHRIST to have communion with Christ". My belief is that anyone and everyone should be able to celebrate the Lord's sacrifice for them (even if they don't realize it was for them). Perhaps their taking of communion will make them into Christians.

 

[Walpole]

For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC.

Mary was created by God, not the Catholic Church.

Notice that #3-5 below..., are a complete fabrication created by the Catholic Church, and are not found in the NT< or in any document related to the bible, that exists, unless its a CC creation.

They just made it up.

I thought Protestants claim to accept the first seven ecumenical councils? Do you know why those councils declared those dogmas? (They safeguard orthodox Christology and Trinitarian theology.)

As for #3-5, I should remind you these were all held by the progenitors of Protestantism. For example, on the feast of the Immaculate Conception (Dec. 8th) in 1527, Martin Luther preached a sermon on original sin. He opens his sermon with the following...

“Today is the festival of the Virgin Mary, celebrating that she was conceived without original sin…” (Source)


On the feast of the Assumption (Aug 15th) in 1522, Martin Luther preached a sermon in which he states...

"Today the festival of our dear Lady, the Mother of God, is observed to celebrate her death and departure above...

There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith... It is enough to know that she lives in Christ." (Source)


These sermons demonstrates the Immaculate Conception and Assumption were not only part of the regula fidei, but even the progenitor of Protestantism himself also held these beliefs.

I think the modern Protestant opposition to the Church's Marian dogmas stem from a deep-seated prejudice against the Catholic Church and her authority, coupled with a lack of understanding of the incarnation. I'm surprised Protestants don't just rid their Bibles of Mary and be done with her.

Also noteworthy is to note Catholic festival days or days that celebrate Mary.
The CC has more days of celebration for Mary, then then they have days that celebrate Jesus.

This is not true. The Church’s liturgical calendar commemorates the life of Jesus Christ as well as the saints who glorified Christ by their lives of virtue here on earth. The liturgical calendar makes sacred that which is ordinary and it is something inherited from Judaism. There are roughly only a dozen Marian feasts on the annual liturgical calendar of 365 days.

-
"
""""""""""The theological development of devotion to Mary begins with Justin Martyr (100–165) who articulated Mary's role in salvation history as the Second Eve. This was followed up by Irenæus, whom Herbert Thurston calls "the first theologian of the Virgin Mother".

All doctrine develops. Perhaps you are unaware that it took the Church over three hundred years to develop the dogma of the Trinity? Or that it took over four hundred years for the Church to develop her Christological dogmas? These are the core dogmas upon which the Christian religion is based. There is no verse in Scripture which explicitly defines the dogma of the Trinity as defined at the Council of Nicea. Likewise there is no verse in Scripture which explicitly defines the dogma of the hypostatic union of Christ as formulated by Pope Leo the Great and the Council of Chalcedon. Yet both of these dogmas are found in the Scriptures implicitly, and at the same time, both teachings developed over time, across several centuries. So it is with the Church's Marian dogmas. Like the Trinity and Hypostatic Union, they are found in the Scriptures implicitly.

The Church's magisterium has identified these teachings about Mary as = dogmas of faith.

Of the Church's roughly 300 dogmas, only 4 pertain to Mary.

1.) These include belief in her virginal conception of Jesus, taught by the First Council of Nicaea in 325.

2.) The Council of Ephesus in 431 applied to her the description "Mother of God", (Theotokos).

3.) The perpetual virginity of Mary was taught by the ecumenical Second Council of Constantinople in 553, which described her as "ever virgin", and was expressed also, by the Lateran synod of October 649,

4.) The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception states that from the first moment of her existence Mary was without original sin. This doctrine was proclaimed a dogma ex cathedra by Pope Pius IX in 1854.

5.) The dogma of the Assumption of Mary, defined by Pope Pius XII in 1950, states that, at the end of her earthly life, her body did not suffer corruption but was assumed into heaven and became a heavenly body, """""

Addressed above.

 

[Bethel]

Mary was created by God, not the Catholic Church.

Mary was actually created by her parents


'"""""""As for #3-5, I should remind you these were all held by the progenitors of Protestantism. """"""""


All of this is Catholic make believe.


""""""""There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven.""""""""


Mary is not "virgin"< and noone questions that she's in Heaven.
The NT teaches that Mary is blessed "among' women, not "above" women, as the CC would teach it.



""""""""""These sermons demonstrates the Immaculate Conception and Assumption """""""""


The 'assumption of Mary, was decided in '1950 and is Catholic Church fantasy.


"""""""I think the modern Protestant opposition to the Church's Marian dogmas stem from a deep-seated prejudice against the Catholic Church and her authority,""""""""


The only "authority" that Mary has, is in the minds of Catholics.



"""""This is not true. The Church’s liturgical calendar commemorates the life of Jesus Christ as well as the saints who glorified Christ""""""

It actually is true.
Go and research it.
There are more "Mary" days, then there are days devoted to Jesus.
And if you do, be sure you make the distinction between feasts that honor the 'Sacrament", and feasts that actually honor the Son of God, Himself.

You should also research this term......"The cult of Mary", as this isn't a term created by Protestants.

 

[Walpole]

Mary was actually created by her parents

God is Creator of all, including Mary (and her parents).

'"""""""As for #3-5, I should remind you these were all held by the progenitors of Protestantism. """"""""


All of this is Catholic make believe.


""""""""There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven.""""""""


Mary is not "virgin"< and noone questions that she's in Heaven.
The NT teaches that Mary is blessed "among' women, not "above" women, as the CC would teach it.



""""""""""These sermons demonstrates the Immaculate Conception and Assumption """""""""


The 'assumption of Mary, was decided in '1950 and is Catholic Church fantasy.

Then why was Martin Luther preaching a sermon on it's feast day 428 years prior to 1950?

Also, the profile image you have above your screen name is that of St. Francis of Assisi. He lived from 1181 to 1226. He famously used to fast for 40 days starting on the feast of the Assumption and ending on the feast of the St. Michael. How could he have done so if the Assumption was not known until 1950?

"""""""I think the modern Protestant opposition to the Church's Marian dogmas stem from a deep-seated prejudice against the Catholic Church and her authority,""""""""


The only "authority" that Mary has, is in the minds of Catholics.



"""""This is not true. The Church’s liturgical calendar commemorates the life of Jesus Christ as well as the saints who glorified Christ""""""

It actually is true.
Go and research it.
There are more "Mary" days, then there are days devoted to Jesus.

You should also research this term......"The cult of Mary", as this isn't a term created by Protestants.

Here are the "Mary" days as you call them on the Church's liturgical calendar:

Jan. 1 – Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God
Feb. 2 – The Presentation of the Lord in the Temple
Feb. 11 – Our Lady of Lourdes
Mar. 25 – Solemnity of the Annunciation of the Lord
May 31 – The Visitation
Sat. after Second Sunday after Pentecost – Immaculate Heart of Mary
July 16 – Our Lady of Mount Carmel
Aug. 15 – The Assumption
Aug. 22 – The Queenship of Mary
Sept. 8 – The Birth of Mary
Sept. 15 – Our Lady of Sorrows
Oct. 7 – Our Lady of the Rosary
Nov. 21 – The Presentation of Mary
Dec. 8 – The Immaculate Conception

As a reminder, there are 365 days in the year. What's the math on the percentage of feast days dedicated to Mary?

 

[Bethel]

God is Creator of all, including Mary (and her parents).

God is Creator of all, including Mary (and her parents).

God is the Creator, however, a sperm and a egg in a womb, followed by a birth, is the creation of Mary, and you as well.
This is simple biology.

Then why was Martin Luther preaching a sermon on it's feast day 428 years prior to 1950?

All im showing you is this......... In 1950, Pope Pius XII declared the Assumption of Mary.

Also, the profile image you have above your screen name is that of St. Francis of Assisi. He lived from 1181 to 1226. He famously used to fast for 40 days starting on the feast of the Assumption and ending on the feast of the St. Michael. How could he have done so if the Assumption was not known until 1950?

I have a few favorite Saints. including St Anthony, Hildegard von Bingen, Mary of Egypt, St Francis.
I always admire extreme devotion to the Love of God.
You are aware that the Catholic Church burned Joan of Arc, then later made her a "Saint"?

Aren't you glad the Catholic Church is not burning people in '2021. .

Here are the "Mary" days as you call them on the Church's liturgical calendar:

Jan. 1 – Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God
Feb. 2 – The Presentation of the Lord in the Temple
Feb. 11 – Our Lady of Lourdes
Mar. 25 – Solemnity of the Annunciation of the Lord
May 31 – The Visitation
Sat. after Second Sunday after Pentecost – Immaculate Heart of Mary
July 16 – Our Lady of Mount Carmel
Aug. 15 – The Assumption
Aug. 22 – The Queenship of Mary
Sept. 8 – The Birth of Mary
Sept. 15 – Our Lady of Sorrows
Oct. 7 – Our Lady of the Rosary
Nov. 21 – The Presentation of Mary
Dec. 8 – The Immaculate Conception

Yes, im aware of these feast days that are dedicated to Mary.
I must be, as im the one that brought them up.
What i told you is that there are more of these days dedicated to Mary, then there are the same dedicated to Jesus.

 

[Walpole]

God is the Creator, however, a sperm and a egg in a womb, followed by a birth, is the creation of Mary, and you as well.
This is simple biology.

Indeed. Hence your previous assertion that Mary was created by the Catholic Church is demonstrably fallacious.

All im showing you is this......... In 1950, Pope Pius XII declared the Assumption of Mary.

Again, if the Assumption was declared in 1950, how was Martin Luther preaching a sermon on it 428 years prior?

Perhaps you want to explain what exactly Pius XII did in 1950?

I have a few favorite Saints. including St Anthony, Hildegard von Bingen, Mary of Egypt, St Francis.
I always admire extreme devotion to the Love of God.

Wonderful! St. Hildegard von Bingen wrote some beautiful hymns and antiphons to Mary.

You are aware that the Catholic Church burned Joan of Arc, then later made her a "Saint"?

Aren't you glad the Catholic Church is not burning people in '2021. .

Red herring.

(We are discussing Mary, not the execution of Joan of Arc.)

Yes, im aware of these feast days that are dedicated to Mary.
I must be, as im the one that brought them up.
What i told you is that there are more of these days dedicated to Mary, then there are the same dedicated to Jesus.

Again, the Church's liturgical calendar is centered on the life of Jesus Christ.

---> Was Mary part of the life of Jesus Christ?

---> Of the 365 days in the liturgical calendar, what percentage are dedicated to Mary?