The Catholic Church.

[Bethel]

It sounds like you guys are stuck in defensive mode and neither is going to budge so maybe it's time to move on past this?

How about this... WIP

It was to your post that i posted to you....

Bethel said:
For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC.

Walpole, then said this......

""""Mary was created by God, not the Catholic Church.""""

So, we see that the confusion, was Walpole misreading....>"Mary's Position, as created by the CC"...as "Catholics Created Mary"


Following that......Walpole has now changed the comment to this...

""Once again Mary, nor her position, was created by the Catholic Church. She, and her position in the economy of salvation, was created by God.""""""

So, ive not changed my quote that i first posted to you, Wip, which was.....

""""For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC.""""

Now, i have no issue with leaving this person to their POV, except that they keep trying to twist what i posted to you, originally, in more and more posts.

 

[GodsGrace]

You probably feel that if a person discusses Catholic Theology, they are personally attacking you.
But, in my case, that is not even related to our discussion.
You can believe that i dont hate Catholics.
I dont hate anyone.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now....Here is the "goal post"..... You said that i said that "Catholics created Mary".

So, that was your original, false statement.

You have now quoted what i posted, and you noticed i never said that "Catholics Created Mary".

I said, "position"..... but i explained it to you a few times as the >purpose<, and i will post the Catholic Theology for you again down below that explains both the "position and purpose".

The CC elevates Mary, as i said, to "mediatrix, and queen", and she is neither.


Here is the CC theology.
-
"""""""The will of the Blessed Virgin is completely conformed to that of Her Son, in other words – God. She is the most humble and chaste spouse of the Holy Ghost and will never do anything contrary to the will of God. Thus, we ought to trust the Blessed Mother just as God has, because She ultimately brings us to God. Mary is our Salvation, and Christ is the source of our Salvation. Mary is the Gate and Christ is the Key. It is only through Her that we are saved.
She saves us by bringing us to Christ """

Pope Leo XIII said: "The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace."""""

This is not a HE SAID SHE SAID type of forum.
We here are accustomed to respecting each others opinions.....you seem a bit hostile.

I do not want this thread to be closed.
Please forget about who said what and continue in a civil manner.

Walpole does not feel attacked and is well versed in his theology.

Please show respect for all members.
As we will for you.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have a very difficult time understanding the CC belief in Mary. She was just a random teenager selected by God to give birth to Jesus in human form and apparently did a good job of raising Him. She is not and never will be divine.

There is a very strong belief in marianismo where I live...

Marianismo is an aspect of the female gender role in the machismo of Hispanic American folk culture. It is the veneration for feminine virtues like purity and moral strength. For example, it represents the "virgin" aspect of the dichotomy. Evelyn Stevens states: it teaches that women are semi-divine, morally superior to and spiritually stronger than men." The ideas within marianismo include those of feminine passivity and sexual purity. In marianismo, power that is granted to women stems from the female ability to produce life. This term derives from Catholic belief in Mary, mother of Jesus, as both a virgin and a mother. She became a subject of veneration and admiration. From this is derived the idea that an ideal woman should be spiritually immaculate and eternally self-giving. source: wikipedia

Forget about where you live.
Only what is taught by the CC is important, and that is what should be addressed.

 

[GodsGrace]

How about this... WIP

It was to your post that i posted to you....



Walpole, then said this......

""""Mary was created by God, not the Catholic Church.""""

So, we see that the confusion, was Walpole misreading....>"Mary's Position, as created by the CC"...as "Catholics Created Mary"


Following that......Walpole has now changed the comment to this...

""Once again Mary, nor her position, was created by the Catholic Church. She, and her position in the economy of salvation, was created by God.""""""

So, ive not changed my quote that i first posted to you, Wip, which was.....

""""For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC.""""

Now, i have no issue with leaving this person to their POV, except that they keep trying to twist what i posted to you, originally, in more and more posts.

Mary was created by God in the same sense that all humans are.

Mary's position was also created by God.
For some reason, God chose HER to be the mother of The Son, the incarnated 2nd person of the Trinity.

Luke plainly states that she is favored by God...
By God.

To try to bring Mary down to the level of every other woman is a disservice to what she accomplished for humanity.

Perhaps the CC is correct in elevating her stature...albeit a bit too much for some tastes.

 

[Walpole]

You probably feel that if a person discusses Catholic Theology, they are personally attacking you.
But, in my case, that is not even related to our discussion.
You can believe that i dont hate Catholics.
I dont hate anyone.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't take an attack on Catholic theology personally. After all, I am in a Protestant discussion forum. I do, however, take accusations of dishonesty personally. Our posts are there for all to see. I quoted you VERBATIM and even provided links to your posts.

Now....Here is the "goal post"..... You said that i said that "Catholics created Mary".

So, that was your original, false statement.

You have now quoted what i posted, and you noticed i never said that "Catholics Created Mary".

You responded to that by stating Mary's parents created her and then doubled down by stating it was simple biology!

I said, "position"..... but i explained it to you a few times as the >purpose<, and i will post the Catholic Theology for you again down below that explains both the "position and purpose".

And I responded REPEATEDLY that Mary, AND HER POSITION, were created by God, not the Catholic Church. Simply scroll up and read this page of posts.

The CC elevates Mary, as i said, to "mediatrix, and queen", and she is neither.


Here is the CC theology.
-
"""""""The will of the Blessed Virgin is completely conformed to that of Her Son, in other words – God. She is the most humble and chaste spouse of the Holy Ghost and will never do anything contrary to the will of God. Thus, we ought to trust the Blessed Mother just as God has, because She ultimately brings us to God. Mary is our Salvation, and Christ is the source of our Salvation. Mary is the Gate and Christ is the Key. It is only through Her that we are saved.
She saves us by bringing us to Christ """

Pope Leo XIII said: "The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace."""""

I addressed this already and you completely ignored what I wrote, opting instead to accuse me of dishonesty. Here again is what I wrote in response to the above...

She is mediatrix of grace by virtue of the fact that she gave birth to the Jesus Christ, who is source of all grace. Ergo, she is the channel of grace to mankind; the gate by which God entered into His creation.

This type of poetic language is no different than a Protestant stating, "Our salvation comes from the word of God." (Source) Salvation does come from a book, but rather from the Person of Jesus Christ. However, if one learns about Jesus Christ via the word of God, then this statement is not problematic in context.

 

[Walpole]

Forget about where you live.
Only what is taught by the CC is important, and that is what should be addressed.

Exactly. Where I live Protestants handle rattlesnakes during church services. Is that a fair indictment on mainstream Protestantism?

 

[Bethel]

This is not a HE SAID SHE SAID type of forum.
We here are accustomed to respecting each others opinions.....you seem a bit hostile.

I do not want this thread to be closed.
Please forget about who said what and continue in a civil manner.

Walpole does not feel attacked and is well versed in his theology.

Please show respect for all members.
As we will for you.

I would say that your post is "hostile".
This is your first post to me, and i don't sense any "friendly" in it.

So here is the thing...

I poste this to WIP... """""For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC.""""

Walpole, then said this...... to me

""""Mary was created by God, not the Catholic Church.""""


So, as you can see, they misread what i wrote.

I said that "mary's position was created by the CC", and Walpole misunderstood this as....> "Mary herself was created by the CC".

Ive tried for 2 days now to explain their misunderstanding to them.
Ive not been successful.
Maybe you can try.

 

[Bethel]

Luke plainly states that she is favored by God...
By God.

Mary is indeed "blessed among women", however she is not blessed "above" them, which is to elevate her to a "position" that is only created by one denomination.
Just one.

 

[Walpole]

It sounds like you guys are stuck in defensive mode and neither is going to budge so maybe it's time to move on past this?

Perhaps you can go back and read through these posts and see that his accusation of dishonesty on my part is fallacious. I think he realized this and that is why he quickly moved the goal post.

 

[Bethel]

I don't take an attack on Catholic theology personally. After all, I am in a Protestant discussion forum. I do, however, take accusations of dishonesty personally. Our posts are there for all to see. I quoted you VERBATIM and even provided links to your posts.
You responded to that by stating Mary's parents created her and then doubled down by stating it was simple biology!
And I responded REPEATEDLY that Mary, AND HER POSITION, were created by God, not the Catholic Church. Simply scroll up and read this page of posts.
I addressed this already and you completely ignored what I wrote, opting instead to accuse me of dishonesty. Here again is what I wrote in response to the above...
She is mediatrix of grace by virtue of the fact that she gave birth to the Jesus Christ, who is source of all grace. Ergo, she is the channel of grace to mankind; the gate by which God entered into His creation.
This type of poetic language is no different than a Protestant stating, "Our salvation comes from the word of God." (Source) Salvation does come from a book, but rather from the Person of Jesus Christ. However, if one learns about Jesus Christ via the word of God, then this statement is not problematic in context.

--------------------------------------

You do understand that only the CC position's Mary as "mediatrix", and "queen"???????
You do realize this?
And you wrote that you understand that you are on a "protestant" forum, so, that should inform you that only a Catholic is going to agree with your POV regarding CC "Mariology"?
So, who is that going to leave out on a "Protestant" forum, if it is indeed truly "Protestant"?

A.) Everyone

Bethel said:
For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC.

Walpole, then said this......

""""Mary was created by God, not the Catholic Church.""""

So, we see that the confusion, was Walpole misreading....>"Mary's Position, as created by the CC"...as "Catholics Created Mary"

Following that......Walpole has now changed the comment to this...

""Once again Mary, nor her position, was created by the Catholic Church. She, and her position in the economy of salvation, was created by God.""""""

So, ive not changed my quote that i first posted to you, Wip, which was.....

""""For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC.""""

Now, i have no issue with leaving this person to their POV, except that they keep trying to twist what i posted to you, originally, in more and more posts.

 

[Walpole]

--------------------------------------

You do understand that only the CC positions Mary as "mediatrix", and "queen"?
And you wrote that you understand that you are on a "protestant" forum, so, that should inform you that only a Catholic is going to agree with your POV.
So, who is that going to leave out on a "Protestant" forum, if it is indeed truly "Protestant"?

A.) Everyone

You are wrong as the Orthodox Church also venerates Mary as queen and mediatrix...

"You who were the mediatrix of the salvation of our race, we hymn, Virgin Theotokos! For in the flesh, that very flesh taken from you, your Son and our God, because he had embraced the passion of the cross, redeemed us from corruption, as the Lover of humankind." - The Dismissal Theotokion in the Third Tone (Orthodox hymn)

As for being queen, in Jewish custom the Queen is not the King's wife, but rather the King's mother. Jesus Christ being King makes Mary the Queen.

Walpole, then said this......

""""Mary was created by God, not the Catholic Church.""""

So, we see that the confusion, was Walpole misreading....>"Mary's Position, as created by the CC"...as "Catholics Created Mary"


Following that......Walpole has now changed the comment to this...

""Once again Mary, nor her position, was created by the Catholic Church. She, and her position in the economy of salvation, was created by God.""""""

So, ive not changed my quote that i first posted to you, Wip, which was.....

""""For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC.""""

Now, i have no issue with leaving this person to their POV, except that they keep trying to twist what i posted to you, originally, in more and more posts.

Once again, YOU did not have any ambiguity about my post because YOU RESPONDED THAT MARY'S PARENTS CREATED HER! You then doubled down and stated it was simple biology. Do you need the link again?

Furthermore, I have posted NUMEROUS times now that Mary, and her position, were created by God, not the Catholic Church. Scroll up. The gig is up.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would say that your post is "hostile".
This is your first post to me, and i don't sense any "friendly" in it.

So here is the thing...

I poste this to WIP... """""For me, the real interesting discovery has to do with Mary's position, as created by the CC.""""

Walpole, then said this...... to me

""""Mary was created by God, not the Catholic Church.""""


So, as you can see, they misread what i wrote.

I said that "mary's position was created by the CC", and Walpole misunderstood this as....> "Mary herself was created by the CC".

Ive tried for 2 days now to explain their misunderstanding to them.
Ive not been successful.
Maybe you can try.

Move on Bethel.
We all have read the posts.
This is not kindergarten.

Misunderstandings happen.
Let it go....

I forgot to welcome you to the forum.
We're a small but happy family.

 

[GodsGrace]

Mary is indeed "blessed among women", however she is not blessed "above" them, which is to elevate her to a "position" that is only created by one denomination.
Just one.

I think it's unfortunate that we protestants have not done some elevating ourselves.

I think Mary deserves better than what we're willing to give her....

 

[Walpole]

I think it's unfortunate that we protestants have not done some elevating ourselves.

I think Mary deserves better than what we're willing to give her....

Funny how the Catholic Church gets attacked for venerating Mary, but I don't think she is venerated enough in the liturgy. Mary gets two mentions in the Roman liturgy, once in the creed and once in the canon. That's only one more mention than Pontius Pilate gets!

Have you ever been to an Orthodox liturgy? It is full of devotion to the Theotokos.

 

[GodsGrace]

Funny how the Catholic Church gets attacked for venerating Mary, but I don't think she is venerated enough in the liturgy. Mary gets two mentions in the Roman liturgy, once in the creed and once in the canon. That's only one more mention than Pontius Pilate gets!

Have you ever been to an Orthodox liturgy? It is full of devotion to the Theotokos.

Never been to an Orthodox Liturgy.
I know for sure I can't stand that long.
Maybe if they had seating...I'll bet some do.

As to venerating Mary,,,,I think we get this conflated with worshiping her.

I don't mind if the CC wants to call her Queen...but I have difficulty with the idea that comes up every now and then to formally giving her the title of coredemptrix.

I know the word "co" could be understood in 2 different ways...however why create the necessity of having to explain it??

I hope this never comes to pass.
Your opinion?

 

[Walpole]

Never been to an Orthodox Liturgy.
I know for sure I can't stand that long.
Maybe if they had seating...I'll bet some do.

Haha!

As to venerating Mary,,,,I think we get this conflated with worshiping her.

Indeed.

I don't mind if the CC wants to call her Queen...but I have difficulty with the idea that comes up every now and then to formally giving her the title of coredemptrix.

I know the word "co" could be understood I'm 2 different ways...however why create the necessity of having to explain it??

I hope this never comes to pass.
Your opinion?

Remember in Latin, "co" does not mean equal. Because many today are not schooled in classical language or philosophy anymore, I don't think that will ever come to pass. Here is Benedict XVI addressing it several years ago...

"I do not think there will be any compliance with this demand [to declare Mary as the Co-redemptrix], which in the meantime is being supported several million people, within the foreseeable future. The response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is, broadly that what is signified by this already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula 'Co-redemptrix' departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings.

"What is true here? Well, it is true that Christ does not remain outside us or to one side of us, but builds a profound and new community with us. Everything that is his becomes ours, and everything that is ours he has taken upon himself, so that it become his: this great exchange is the actual content of redemption, the removal of limitations from our self and its extension into the community with God. Because Mary is the prototype of the Church as such and is, so to say, the Church in person, this being 'with' is realized in her in exemplary fashion. But this 'with' must not lead us to forget the 'first' of Christ. Everything comes from him as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary too, is everything that she is through him.

"The word 'Co-redemptrix' would obscure this origin. A correct intention is being expressed in the wrong way. For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language."

- Peter Seewald, God and the World, pg. 306

 

[GodsGrace]

Haha!


Indeed.


Remember in Latin, "co" does not mean equal. Because many today are not schooled in classical language or philosophy anymore, I don't think that will ever come to pass. Here is Benedict XVI addressing it several years ago...

"I do not think there will be any compliance with this demand [to declare Mary as the Co-redemptrix], which in the meantime is being supported several million people, within the foreseeable future. The response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is, broadly that what is signified by this already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula 'Co-redemptrix' departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings.

"What is true here? Well, it is true that Christ does not remain outside us or to one side of us, but builds a profound and new community with us. Everything that is his becomes ours, and everything that is ours he has taken upon himself, so that it become his: this great exchange is the actual content of redemption, the removal of limitations from our self and its extension into the community with God. Because Mary is the prototype of the Church as such and is, so to say, the Church in person, this being 'with' is realized in her in exemplary fashion. But this 'with' must not lead us to forget the 'first' of Christ. Everything comes from him as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary too, is everything that she is through him.

"The word 'Co-redemptrix' would obscure this origin. A correct intention is being expressed in the wrong way. For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language."

- Peter Seewald, God and the World, pg. 306

Happy to hear this!
I wonder if the above is in one of Benedict's books about the life of Jesus?

I also can't grasp how Mary is a the prototype of the church. Sometimes I think I do,,,but it quickly becomes lost to me. I think even you mentioned this at some point.

 

[Walpole]

Happy to hear this!
I wonder if the above is in one of Benedict's books about the life of Jesus?

It is not in his Jesus of Nazareth books. What I posted was from an interview he gave prior to being elected pope.

I also can't grasp how Mary is a the prototype of the church. Sometimes I think I do,,,but it quickly becomes lost to me. I think even you mentioned this at some point.

I have to run so I'll address this next time I'm on here.

God bless and thanks for your all your wisdom. I enjoy your posts.

 

[Bethel]

Move on Bethel.
We all have read the posts.

Thank you for giving me your orders.
Duly noted.

Also, i was trying to "move on", but Walpole keeps sending me more posts.

Perhaps you could "pm" them, and mention what you just mentioned to me.

 

[Bethel]

I think Mary deserves better than what we're willing to give her....

Please be serious.

What more could the CC do to elevate Mary?

"""""""The will of the Blessed Virgin is completely conformed to that of Her Son, in other words – God. She is the most humble and chaste spouse of the Holy Ghost and will never do anything contrary to the will of God. Thus, we ought to trust the Blessed Mother just as God has, because She ultimately brings us to God. Mary is our Salvation, and Christ is the source of our Salvation. Mary is the Gate and Christ is the Key. It is only through Her that we are saved.
She saves us by bringing us to Christ """

Pope Leo XIII said: "The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace."""""
""