Bible Study Genesis 2-3

[for_his_glory]

Address the argument, not the person

As Christians we do not argue the word of God, but discuss what has already been written.

 

[for_his_glory]

Edward for_his_glory Never are any believers ever declared to be outside the walls of Jerusalem. That is what is meant by the term "outer darkness" - it's just the darkness on the outside. The unbelievers are said to be in the darkness outside God's heavenly city.

The unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire where Satan and the false prophet will also be cast into and remembered no more as they are cast out into outer darkness.

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Outer darkness, lake of fire is all separation from God forever which has no place on the renewed heaven or earth where the New Jerusalem will be ushered down.

 

[for_his_glory]

Edward T. E. Smith

Luke 23:41-43 I believe the thief knowing he was a sinner and with his physical death approching finally recognized the need to repent as I would only assume he heard Jesus speak to the multitudes and so did repent before his death so that when Jesus returns he too will be part of the Bride. This is why he asked Jesus to remember him in paradise. Kinda like a death bed confession.

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 Paul says he will come to visions and revelations and did not know if this man was in or out of his body. I believe the meaning is that this man was not actually in heaven (paradise), but in the Spiritual realm right where he sat as seeing a vision of paradise and hearing the Holy Spirit speak to him. I know when I am one on one with the Holy Spirit he speaks to me sometimes with visions and sometimes revelations.

I feel where God is at in the third heaven can be as what Jerusalem was at one time being a place where the presence of God filled the actual Temple. God fills His Temple in Heaven with His Shekinah glory as God is never changing and when Jesus returns and the New Jerusalem (I don't believe it is literal as in a city made with hands) is ushered down to a new pruified heaven and earth God will also fill the temple as God and Jesus are the temple made without hands and the brightness of the Shekinah glory means there will be no more darkness of night anymore.

I also feel the New Jerusalem could be the Garden of Eden as scripture is silent on whatever happen to it from the time Adam was evicted, Genesis 3:24, and the Cherubims who God sat at the Eastern gates are probably still guarding the entrance as no one has ever found it nor will they ever.

The Eastern Gate has been sealed off by the Turks since the1500's and has never been opened again. Scripture speaks of Jesus who entered in and out of it while here on earth and will again enter the Eastern Gate, or as it is sometimes called the Golden gate, when He returns to fight the final battle. According to Luke 21:5, 6 Jesus was speaking ab out God destroying the Temple as there will not be left one stone upon another during the time of Gods great wrath and in Rev 21:9-27 John is given the vision of the New Jerusalem as the temple is God and Jesus and there will need not be any sun as the Shekinah glory will be our light.

Ref scriptures: Ezekiel 43:1-4; 44:1-3; Zechariah 14:3, 4; Matthew 21:1-5; Acts 1:10-12; Rev 21:9-27

(Side note):
Zechariah 14:3,4 speaks of Jesus coming down to plant His feet on the Mount of Olives that faces the east of Jerusalem and will cause the mountain to split in half from east to west making a very large valley. I never thought of this before, but it could be that valley is the Garden of Eden that has layed under ground all these years. Something to think about.

In my minds eye I do not see the New Jerusalem as a literal city that is being built up in heaven like we see a city built up here on earth, but that the heaven and earth being all made new again is what God ushers down from heaven as the whole earth will be the New Jerusalem where all who are God's own will live in for eternity , Rev 21:1-4.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lake of fire will not be a part of the new heaven and new earth, but outer darkness in a wicked realm.

 

[eddif]

Pretty sure the man seeing into heaven was also seeing inside himself. Of course that thread was trashed years ago. Not a problem. The symbolism of our body is still with us. Made in the image of God is still made in the image of God. The ground is men's hearts. The Romans 1:20 is still written. The natural heart pacemaker still looks like a crucified man (marred beyond the semblance of man).

Not necessarily all or in this order:

In the mind of God
Spoken as words ( creation including us)
First a body
Then a living breathing soul ( mind, will, emotions, concept of eternity)
Calling on God
Tabernacle
Temple
Fullness of God bodily (Jesus express image of God)
Quickening Spirit ( body and - mind and heart?) (New Jerusalem?) Just open door
Holy Spirit gifts to witness

1 Thessolonians 4:16 kjv
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Be forever in the clouds? Or just this is how we get wherever..
Definitely through a glass darkly LOL

eddif

 

[Edward]

The unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire where Satan and the false prophet will also be cast into and remembered no more as they are cast out into outer darkness.

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Outer darkness, lake of fire is all separation from God forever which has no place on the renewed heaven or earth where the New Jerusalem will be ushered down.

Those are good scriptures and must be true.

So if all of the unprofitable servants are cast into outer darkness...then who are these people outside of the walls of New Jerusalem?

Because that is a scripture too so must be true.

 

[Edward]

Luke 23:41-43 I believe the thief knowing he was a sinner and with his physical death approching finally recognized the need to repent as I would only assume he heard Jesus speak to the multitudes and so did repent before his death so that when Jesus returns he too will be part of the Bride. This is why he asked Jesus to remember him in paradise. Kinda like a death bed confession

I'm with you here, except for, part of the Bride? How can this be so? Servant of God, Friend of God, Sons of God...are all well defined in scripture. That thief had no resume of trust with God. Good possibility that he didn't follow the commandments nor was led by the Spirit of God. So how could he be the Bride of Christ?

I feel where God is at in the third heaven can be as what Jerusalem was at one time being a place where the presence of God filled the actual Temple. God fills His Temple in Heaven with His Shekinah glory as God is never changing and when Jesus returns and the New Jerusalem (I don't believe it is literal as in a city made with hands) is ushered down to a new pruified heaven and earth God will also fill the temple as God and Jesus are the temple made without hands and the brightness of the Shekinah glory means there will be no more darkness of night anymore.

Huh? Just a vision? So what did Christ mean when He said, I go to prepare a place for you?

I always thought they were building the New Jerusalem. Whup, Tony Smith accepted the Lord, we're going to need another mansion...

I also feel the New Jerusalem could be the Garden of Eden as scripture is silent on whatever happen to it from the time Adam was evicted, Genesis 3:24, and the Cherubims who God sat at the Eastern gates are probably still guarding the entrance as no one has ever found it nor will they ever.

Could be. Old civilizations have always built upon the ruins of the last culture, and they learned to do that somewhere, lol. So if a new city which contained a huge Garden was supernaturally come down and set in place, then, it's believeable and plausible.

 

[eddif]

I'm with you here, except for, part of the Bride? How can this be so? Servant of God, Friend of God, Sons of God...are all well defined in scripture. That thief had no resume of trust with God. Good possibility that he didn't follow the commandments nor was led by the Spirit of God. So how could he be the Bride of Christ?



Huh? Just a vision? So what did Christ mean when He said, I go to prepare a place for you?

I always thought they were building the New Jerusalem. Whup, Tony Smith accepted the Lord, we're going to need another mansion...



Could be. Old civilizations have always built upon the ruins of the last culture, and they learned to do that somewhere, lol. So if a new city which contained a huge Garden was supernaturally come down and set in place, then, it's believeable and plausible.

Edward you really do know how to give classroom assignments.

You have described everything from the depagrture of Jesus to the resurrection. IMHO

When Jesus returned to heaven, what was to happen to hisdisciples?
They were left as mainly as Jewish persons waiting for power from on high.

Their mindset had to change in two ways:

Hebrews 10:16 kjv
16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

This is a New Jerusalem concept for them:
1. Their hearts will not be stony hearts of the letter of the law, but hearts of flesh.
2. Their minds will need to see problems as unimportant. They will be called before kings for their belief they can not be anxious.

Outside of their new inner self the world still goes on, but inside a new inner peace will come down to them from heaven ( Jesus seated on the right hand of the Father.

If any of them fall away from this new concept ( after all attempts at restoration fail) they are cast out of the church for the destruction of the flesh, so that in the day of the Lord Jesus they might be saved. (Google will supply scriptures). Church discipline begins. Even still on this site there is casting into outer darkness if you attack brothers and ignore warnings. Your mind just has to wrap itself around where we are now (the mind of Christ in us and us in Christ). This existence must rule). Can you do all this with the will of man? No. The Holy Spirit must be leading. The quickening Spirit must be acknowledged / praised.

As a Mississippi redneck: that is about all I know about that.

eddif

 

[eddif]

I never heard of any of God's own living outside the gates of the New Jerusalem. Will have to research that. Rev 22:14-15 gives a description of those outside of the gates.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I have read this several times, and finally a little understanding is beginning.

The beyond JordAn group did exist at a point in time.
But
New covenant believers are aggressively sought to be involved in every aspect of full fellowship. The letters to the churches show good and error to be promoted or dealt with. The Holy Spirit and Jesus being lifted up draws people to return to the closet possible fellowship. The Holy Spirit also is bringing people in.

So you are correct.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

I have read this several times, and finally a little understanding is beginning.

The beyond JordAn group did exist at a point in time.
But
New covenant believers are aggressively sought to be involved in every aspect of full fellowship. The letters to the churches show good and error to be promoted or dealt with. The Holy Spirit and Jesus being lifted up draws people to return to the closet possible fellowship. The Holy Spirit also is bringing people in.

So you are correct.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

You're getting it my friend

 

[for_his_glory]

Edward you really do know how to give classroom assignments.

You have described everything from the depagrture of Jesus to the resurrection. IMHO

When Jesus returned to heaven, what was to happen to hisdisciples?
They were left as mainly as Jewish persons waiting for power from on high.

Their mindset had to change in two ways:

Hebrews 10:16 kjv
16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

This is a New Jerusalem concept for them:
1. Their hearts will not be stony hearts of the letter of the law, but hearts of flesh.
2. Their minds will need to see problems as unimportant. They will be called before kings for their belief they can not be anxious.

Outside of their new inner self the world still goes on, but inside a new inner peace will come down to them from heaven ( Jesus seated on the right hand of the Father.

If any of them fall away from this new concept ( after all attempts at restoration fail) they are cast out of the church for the destruction of the flesh, so that in the day of the Lord Jesus they might be saved. (Google will supply scriptures). Church discipline begins. Even still on this site there is casting into outer darkness if you attack brothers and ignore warnings. Your mind just has to wrap itself around where we are now (the mind of Christ in us and us in Christ). This existence must rule). Can you do all this with the will of man? No. The Holy Spirit must be leading. The quickening Spirit must be acknowledged / praised.

As a Mississippi redneck: that is about all I know about that.

eddif

Colossians Chapter three teaches us how to put on the new self that we are risen with Christ and need to seek those things from above where Christ sits at the right hand of the Father.

 

[Edward]

Now I did tell you that I'm not being dogmatic on this subject. I heard it, it sounds somewhat plausible, but it is entirely possible that I am wrong about it too. ??

Ok then, for the sake of discussion though, if no one will be living outside New Jerusalem, then...why do you suppose that the River of Life and Tree of Life are outside the walls?

What purpose could that serve outside?

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm with you here, except for, part of the Bride? How can this be so? Servant of God, Friend of God, Sons of God...are all well defined in scripture. That thief had no resume of trust with God. Good possibility that he didn't follow the commandments nor was led by the Spirit of God. So how could he be the Bride of Christ?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

When I read Luke 23:39-43 I see this is what the thief did when he recognized who Jesus truly was as he confessed him as Lord before he died as Jesus knew his heart. Look what Jesus said to him, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." This would be like anyone who confessed Jesus as Lord and then died afterwards in a car wreck or any other type of unexpected death.

Huh? Just a vision? So what did Christ mean when He said, I go to prepare a place for you?

I always thought they were building the New Jerusalem. Whup, Tony Smith accepted the Lord, we're going to need another mansion...

I go to prepare a place for you are words of encouragement, not only for the disciples when Jesus told them that, but for all that come to Christ. Jesus prepares a place for all of us who are His own as He prepares us a place in the New Jerusalem and there we will be with the Lord forever.

Let not your heart be troubled.

Could be. Old civilizations have always built upon the ruins of the last culture, and they learned to do that somewhere, lol. So if a new city which contained a huge Garden was supernaturally come down and set in place, then, it's believeable and plausible.

What I presented is only my understanding as seeing the Spiritual of the literal, but with God anything is possible above our understanding.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Now I did tell you that I'm not being dogmatic on this subject. I heard it, it sounds somewhat plausible, but it is entirely possible that I am wrong about it too. ??

Ok then, for the sake of discussion though, if no one will be living outside New Jerusalem, then...why do you suppose that the River of Life and Tree of Life are outside the walls?

What purpose could that serve outside?

Where does Revelation say the tree and water are outside the city? 22:2 says it's in the middle of the city's streets.
And no snide comments.

 

[Edward]

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

When I read Luke 23:39-43 I see this is what the thief did when he recognized who Jesus truly was as he confessed him as Lord before he died as Jesus knew his heart. Look what Jesus said to him, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." This would be like anyone who confessed Jesus as Lord and then died afterwards in a car wreck or any other type of unexpected death.

I go to prepare a place for you are words of encouragement, not only for the disciples when Jesus told them that, but for all that come to Christ. Jesus prepares a place for all of us who are His own as He prepares us a place in the New Jerusalem and there we will be with the Lord forever.

Let not your heart be troubled.


What I presented is only my understanding as seeing the Spiritual of the literal, but with God anything is possible above our understanding.

Yeah, He said thou shalt be saved. He did not say, thou shalt be the Bride of Christ.

I don't buy it that everyone is the Bride of Christ. She is the unblemished one. The fewest of the few. Remember the parable of the Talents? There is a clue there also. One guy got 1 Talent. One guy got 5 Talents. One guy got 10 Talents! That shows evidence of a ranking system do it not?

And we know from scripture that there is four levels. You can be a Servant. We make ourselves to be Servants. Being a Servant does not even denote pay. Being a Servant is being a Servant and it can be with or without pay.

Want a promotion? Move up to being a "Friend" of God? Friends are closer and have more privliges than Servants. It says in James 2:

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.../

So Abraham exercised his Faith and walked in it while doing his god works in the flesh and by doing so made Faith Perfect...and so, was called the "Friend" of God! That is how to be promoted to Friend!

Now don't forget about the Talents while I explain, lol. And that, to more whom is given, more shall be required, remember that?! So if one wanted to move up and be one of the Sons of God, we have the power to do that ourselves (John 1:12). We were given this with Salvation in the beginning. But more is required to take this step. More than walking in Faith! A dedication. Intensive study sessions, Berean style, lol. And...Praying without Ceasing! (Prayer accomplishes Everything!)

Essentially, when one prays without ceasing, one is being led by the Spirit of God. So pray without ceasing to pray. Romans 8:14
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God..../

And...I can't recall seeing a scripture which delineates the Bride of Christ. So I suspect that in the case of if we would desire to become the "Bride" of Christ, that...it's highly likely to not be up to us to make that decision. That is the Bridegrooms decision!

I picked my own Bride! Why wouldn't Jesus?

So, my Dear Sister, can you show me somehow how the Theif on the cross is indeed the Bride of Christ? Because I can't fathom that in the face of all these other scriptures and teachings about Ankle deep, waist deep, swimming! To those more is given, more is required.

I understand the Thief picked door #1 and will live, and very well mind you, Praise the Lord! But, he didn't win both showcases! How could he? Not the Bride.

 

[Edward]

Where does Revelation say the tree and water are outside the city? 22:2 says it's in the middle of the city's streets.
And no snide comments.

That's a pretty good question. I took that from memory and I don't know offhand. Let me see what I can find. I hope my notes are good. Lol.

 

[T. E. Smith]

That's a pretty good question. I took that from memory and I don't know offhand. Let me see what I can find. I hope my notes are good. Lol.

Ok. In my experience, popular preachers/Christian speakers will just say things that are not in the Bible and then say something like, "In Revelation, it tells us that the river and the trees will be outside the city." Without giving a specific reference. Fortunately for me, I have enough memory of the NT for that to ring a warning bell in my mind.

 

[jaybo]

Does anyone realize that the OP concerns Genesis 2-3? The discussion was gone far away from this topic.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Does anyone realize that the OP concerns Genesis 2-3? The discussion was gone far away from this topic.

for_his_glory made the OP and she is engaging in this new discussion, so that's fine by me.

 

[Cooper]

I don't understand Genesis 2-3 (or more properly 1-3) to be literal truth. I believe they were written to teach us certain basic principles of God, at least in the way the ancient Hebrews understood them.

Take for example, Eve being created from Adam's rib (or side). I don't believe that this literally happened, but was written to teach that a husband and wife are of one essence. Genesis 2:18, "Then the Lord God said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner.’ " Then 23-24, "Then the man said,

‘This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
this one shall be called Woman,
for out of Man this one was taken.’

Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and clings to his wife, and they become one flesh." NRSV

There is no better way to define the relationship between husband and wife than these verses.

Likewise, Genesis 3:5, "... for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.’ " The two trees represent pure faith in God -- the tree of life -- versus humans discerning "truth" on their own -- knowing good and evil. I don't believe there was a literal orchard.

This does not mean that I don't believe the Bible or that it is not God's word, but that there are lessons to be taught. That isn't the case with Exodus through Jude, but I believe that Genesis 1-4 and Revelation are meant to be interpreted rather than taken literally.

Matthew Henry says, “She was not made out of his head to top him, she was not made out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal to him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be loved.”

The message here is about the unity of marriage. When a man leaves his father and mother and is united with his wife, they become one. Adam, it seems, only had one wife.

(I wouldn't have posted. I only read the first post and thought it was about Genesis chapter two. I will leave you all to get on with it.)

 

[for_his_glory]

Now I did tell you that I'm not being dogmatic on this subject. I heard it, it sounds somewhat plausible, but it is entirely possible that I am wrong about it too. ??

Ok then, for the sake of discussion though, if no one will be living outside New Jerusalem, then...why do you suppose that the River of Life and Tree of Life are outside the walls?

What purpose could that serve outside?

This is a good discussion and I enjoy discussing this with you. I know you are not dogmatic as we can only hope we are right, but will know in the end.

Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

New Jerusalem is measured to be twelve thousand furlongs, which is approximately 1500 square miles as an example would be approximately the size of Alaska minus 200 square miles. The earth at present is 196.9 square miles.

Here is my reasoning. Since we know that this present heaven and earth will pass away, Rev 21:1, and God will make new again, the new earth has to be a different size then what it is now, and since there is only outer darkness outside the gates of the New Jerusalem, the new earth would have to be much larger than what the present earth is now. So, I see that the New Jerusalem is not a part of the new earth, but is the new earth.

Those outside the city gates that are never closed are the unredeemed whose names were not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life as they were cast into outer darkness separated from God for all eternity. These are they that were cast into the lake of fire and remembered no more as being the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, Rev 22:15.

The river of life and the tree of life are within the New Jerusalem, not outside the walls.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.