Paul E. Michael
Member
False. They are one Lord, but two Persons.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
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Oh my.
Now we're going to start with the word Lord.
When referring to the Father (maybe you're not),
can we at least capitalize the word to LORD?
LORD is God Father
Lord is Jesus the Son on earth
(this could get so confusing!)
A creed cannot deny scripture.
If you can find one that does, let us know.
No is responding to whether you can forget scripture for a while and just try to understand the Trinity.
Scripture has, of course, everything to do with it, but some verses are rather confusing.
Your answer is No. I guess that means you don't really care to understand the Trinity, but just want to continue
debating it.
This is your prerogative.
I didn't say that you wouldn't be able to understand the Trinity just from scripture due to your intelligence level,
It's just really difficult to do because the persons that protected the doctrine of Jesus being God took years to do this and many different heresies had to be fought.
I agree with this.
It IS a matter of spiritual understanding.
Well, you only used the part of my comment that suited you.You just denied what is written in one of the creeds; which says that Jesus is uncreated.
But I know that you were siding with scripture in that instance.
I was only explaining how I felt and why. The various religions are an example of what happens. Well anyway, I was not intending to upset you. I always think it is best to explain any differences and clear the air, rather than bottle them up. Anyway, I am sorry, but now I feel I cannot say my two pennyworth anymore.
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You can say your two pennies worth all you want to.
We here do not like to censor what persons believe to be true.
Just keep in mind that this is not the Lounge or one of the autonomous zone forums.
I say anything I wish to say.
I just say it civilly and with respect.
Have you given any real thought to how it might be difficult to use only scripture for the doctrine of the Trinity?
Maybe we also need to use the thinking of some of the early church theologians that put the doctrine together?
The similarities between Father and Son are remarkable, and there are many more examples than I give here. We could almost think they are the same, literally One, and this is what I am beginning to think, which is that Jesus is literally the Father in the flesh. "God with us."
God never changes.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Jesus never changes.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1
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God is the only Saviour.
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11
Jesus is the only Saviour
Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. --Acts 4:12
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The Lord was the creator
I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24
Jesus was the creator
By him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16
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God is the first and the last.
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4
Jesus is the first and the last.
Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17
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God forgives sins.
"Who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7
Jesus forgives sins.
And He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven." (Luke 7:48)
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God is our redeemer.
Thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16
Jesus redeemed us.
The great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.
Titus 2:13-14
etc, etc.
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I'm going to try and go through each verse below.
See what you think.
(this is why it's important to understand that EACH PERSON is separate, otherwise we start thinking (from scripture) that Jesus the Son is the Father...and He is not. He is GOD, but the Word/Logos, not the Father.
Maybe we should start saying Word/Logos and stop saying Son...that might help.
In the OT LORD in caps means God Father, the Almighty, Creator of the universe,
the one and only God. Deuteronomy 6:4 HEAR O ISRAEL,,,THE LORD IS ONE.
Jesus was both God and our Savior.
Even in the OT God Father declared that HE would be the savior.
But as the Word/Logos/Son, not as the Father.
It is still God.
There's only One God.
(Different Persons)
Exactly. There are more verse but I won't post them since we know what we're talking about.
God Himself will shepher His sheep, God Himself will save mankind.
As the Son, Word, Logos.
God Father never left heaven,
The Son, Word, Logos, did leave heaven.
He shall be called Immanuel....God with us.
Jesus IS God with us.
The Son, Word, Logos, that came to earth as a sacrifice to save us.
LORD is in caps...referring to God Almighty, God Creator, Father, the One and Only God.
The being that made everything.
All was made by THE WORD, and was nothing made without the Word.
God SPOKE everything into creation.
Jesus is the WORD OF GOD.
No comment.
Agreed.
Because Jesus IS GOD.
He is NOT not God.
There is only One God.
Same as above.
Same as above.
Same as God Father is our Savior....
but in the Person of Jesus, Son, Word, Logos.
Jesus is God.
I know there are many more.
I think it has to be understood from a different point of view.
My entire understanding came from
John 1:1 (once it really sunk in).
The diagram is based on the mormon concept of deity, period.
That link shows that the Greek word for "and" is indeed "kai"
I think that you must be blind as a bat. "only" means "only".
I answered both of those questions. Are you deliberately being obtuse?
Is Jesus a true god or a false god?
There are many lords according to 1 Corinthians 8:5, small "l". There is one Lord according to 1 Corinthians 8:6, capital "L". I would contend that capitalization makes a difference to the text and that the scriptures do not make sense without it. We do not have many "L"ords; and we do not have one "l"ord.
So, when it says that there is one Lord Jesus Christ, it is referring to "Lord" with a capital "L" and it is saying that Jesus is the only Lord. However, the Father is also the Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).
Okay...you still have to deal with the other two verses.
That would indicate two Persons who are Lord. I can agree with that; for the Father is a Spirit inhabiting eternity without flesh and Jesus is the same Spirit come in flesh.
However, in that they are the same Spirit, they are the same Lord.
And also, a "Lord" by definition, is a singular Person.
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I think that anyone who hasn't been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins must be what the Bible calls "the natural man".
1Co 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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There's some message hidden in there that I don't see.
The natural man, to my understanding, is anyone that does not know God.
You might mean me, or you might mean another member, but I don't agree.
Anyone that knows GOD, even if another religion, will have the spirit of God known to them.
(if they truly follow God and not just their religion).
The "natural man" is anyone who does not have the Holy Ghost; who is promised as the result of repentance and baptism in Jesus' Name for the remission of sins.
I have been studying this since I went on line twenty-three years ago in 2000.
Things to know:
In Judaism God is given a proper name to emphasise the personal nature of God. The tetragrammaton (written YHWH) was originally the name of an Edomite or Midianite deity called Yahweh. When the word "LORD" is in all capitals it signifies that the word represents the tetragrammaton Yahweh. Yahweh or “LORD” in this case is a false deity.
The JW's do not know what they worship.
Yahweh - Wikipedia
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1Ch 29:20-21
20 David then said to the people, "Now it's your turn to praise the LORD, the God your ancestors worshiped!" So everyone praised the LORD, and they bowed down to honor him and David their king.
21 The next day, the Israelites slaughtered a thousand bulls, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, and they offered them as sacrifices to please the LORD, along with offerings of wine.
Pagan worship.
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Exo 32:5 And when Aaron saw the calf, he built an altar before it
Exo 32:5 And when Aaron saw the calf, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, "Tomorrow is a feast to the LORD."
Exo 32:6 And they rose up early on the next morning, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings. And the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
Exo 32:7 And the LORD said to Moses, "Go! Get you down, for your people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves.
Yahweh is LORD and the Golden Calf is LORD.
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Now we come to the true Lord or God.
Jesus is “Yeshua” Lord.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
JESUS IS GOD
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Tomorrow Cooper.
I've only been online 8 years.
But studying for 40....
But I'm only 38.
Nearly 80 years old. My Father was a church pastor, I accepted Christ as my saviour age ten, and was baptised in water, full immersion about two years later. Been studying on and off all that time.
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Based on other usage I assume that's why the translation states "And"
Paul E. Michael
Member
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
Which one of these two things does Jesus say in referring to/addressing His Father, and which one of them does He not say?
You ignored my statement of the truth that:
How many times does Jesus say "only" in John 17:3? By my count, it's one time, and no more.
Which one of these two things does Jesus say in referring to/addressing His Father, and which one of them does He not say?
- "Thee the only true God"
- "Thee the only person who is the only true God"
justbyfaith: <NO ANSWER, STILL>
justbyfaith: <NO ANSWER, STILL>
False. You've answered neither of them. What you've done instead of answering those questions is to try to hand me more of your word salad while telling me falsely that you've thereby answered them. Until you have said to me simply either "Yes [the Father is the Son]," or "No [the Father is not the Son]," and either "Yes [the Son is the Father]," or "No [the Son is not the Father]," you will continue in your present failure to have answered those questions.
By your word, "definition", you are referring to your extra-Biblical assumption/imposition of unitarianism.
You ignored my statement of the truth that:
Because, as you and I both know, you have no answer against it. And now, you'll do the same regarding my statement of the truth that the Bible assigns no lower nor upper limit to the number of persons a lord can be.
See message 2138. According to Justbyfaith we who don't believe "the Father" came in flesh are lost.
Well I have the Spirit of Christ in me. I don't believe Jesus was the Fathers Spirit in the beginning that became flesh.
According to Jesus those that "belong" to God hear what God states. He told those that didn't believe in Him was because they did not belong to God.
Now those who do listen to and learn from the Father go to Jesus.
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