Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

[Free]

The tricky thing is that the previous two parables (of talent and the ten virgins) are fir the Christians, especially in the second one, five wise virgins are separated from five foolish virgins; this one however is the judgement of the NATIONS - aka what “gentile” means, based on how they have treated “my brethrens”, which is all believers who do his work, see Matt. 12:48. He’s separating not Christians, but the nations into sheep and goats.

So, you're implying that works save. Is that what you really want to teach? Doesn't "all" mean all? Shouldn't "all the nations" mean what it says, which would include everyone? Are there not Gentile followers of Christ? Since when does the word "Gentile" separate Gentile believers from Gentile non-believers? Does it not separate Jew from non-Jew?

It really isn't tricky. The two parables show that not all who profess Christ belong to Christ and are known by him. This is all carryover from chapter 24 and Jesus answering his disciples' questions regarding signs of the end of the age and Christ's return, ending with the comparison of a "faithful and wise servant" to a "wicked servant." As, I stated, the five wise virgins are those true followers of Christ and the five foolish are those who merely profess to be followers but are not. This is also the same in the parable of the talents, with the "wicked and slothful" servant not being a true servant.

The rest of Matt 25 is about the final judgement and everyone will be there, not just Gentiles, not just unbelievers. The works that the sheep and goats did do not save them, but rather are proof of who is saved and who is not. Even Christians will be judged on how they treated fellow believers, that is not exclusive to unbelievers, nor to Gentiles only.

 

[Corinth77777]

Let me also note towards the statement of "adding works" something that just came to me

The confession is made toward salvation

One is saved, and one continuing in His works is also saved or being saved.

So we are saved by His faith ( a faith that intends to act) and we are saved ( as we walk in His works that He prepared before hand that we should do)

So the so called, " works we do" are part of our salvation

I want to try this on: in reference to a scripture that says the gentile will be saved by faith and Jews through faith [ my adds -the faith]


So if we look into what Peter says in this light that
There is 1 baptism. "Repent and be baptised"..

The Gentiles mentioned, entered through belief who Jesus is. And were capable of entering into the religion/faith of the Jew. And the Jews if they continued to believe by accepting Jesus as Lord would continue and enter the new covenant which would be in His blood. Not the blood of animals And therefore saved through the faith.

I do wonder if:
by faith and through faith are in reference to-
The Faith meaning religion vs. The faith as belief


One possible references is the grafting

But one would Have to find out if all Jews were saved at Water Baptism

-[ I still would not consider water Baptism a work that earns but that shows you have the same benifits, right and privileges as all the other members of the body.]

And Find out if all Gentiles by mere belief and afterwards received a water baptism, rather a Presbyterian's or Baptist’s one ?


Romans 11

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[b] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.


Romans 3:30
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

just some thoughts but I do believe it means through the same faith and not "the faith"

 

[Hopeful 2]

The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” e 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

It is written..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16)
Men "call on the name of the Lord" at their baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)

Water baptism in name of the Father, Son, Spirit was ordained by Jesus and was practiced in the NT as we read and so to this very day. I was baptized myself, but Jesus is not bound by it before He forgives sin. He's looking at the heart of a person and nothing is hidden from Him. Anyone who calls on Him with true faith will be saved.

So the "ordination by Jesus" doesn't really matter ?
True faith will result in true obedience to all that the apostles have taught us.
Including baptism.

 

[Dave...]

I disagree about the "once you add work"
For couldn't your thumb note "all Jesus" Be in what He tells you to do? For can not the Faith in "all Jesus" be in your intent walk in his teachings?

Like part of the scriptures that says: Believe in your heart Jesus and confess with your mouth for example?

Why could not the latter confession be part of faith...as water Baptism.

One ideal that passage says to me is that the outside has to match the inside.

So any outward act of what one believes sounds like it would show who one trust. That would mean belief plus intention to act= Faith-

Or
Faith is moving in what you say you believe


Therefore one might say the faith that works by love is a faith that acts.

The first step would seem to get the inner dimension of the heart clean- the second step
Would be Confession.

But Confession could be water baptism or the calling upon His name as or in the act of water baptism.

For if Confession means to own up to the condition of your soul then it may be represented through the movement by any outward sign.

So it just might not be the water but the movement towards the water.
More so it teaches me Our Faith alone will not save others- But movement from what we believe will.

Think about it Jesus belief alone in God didnt save anyone but when He gave His life as a living sacrafice, and God raised Him it did.

So it sounds like When you move He moves.

As I am writing I see water Baptism -a seal of ones inner faith. WHICH IS Highly possibly that God could confirm you at water Baptism as His.

Yet I believe He can also confirm one through any act of faith. Rather scriptures open up, they speak in tongues, prophesy all these gifts seem to proclaim the mighy works of God to others.

I see them metaphorically as living waters
The Spirit being poured out.

unfortunately I can also see why people leave the faith...
So many trying to formulate how God only works through things they've experienced. And seeing their church as the correct way and only way to God.

But God cannot be contained by man especially where man judge others from their formulas. For God is the only God. And it is He who justifies.

Most of what you said here is evidence. Remember, God's standards are perfect. He cannot comprise Himself. If you add yourself, it only poisons the well. God's standards require a perfectly righteous and sinless life. Jesus, when asked what a man must do to be saved, stringently laid out what perfect obedience to the Law means. Then these same men replied, what then can man do? Jesus answered "what is impossible for man, is possible for God." He did for us what we could not do.

BTW. I'm only supplying the spiritual mechanics of our being placed into the Body of Christ, the Church. The spiritual benefits to us. The legal benefits of our salvation as it pertains to God's Law, and how it was made possible as recorded by scripture. I'm doing my best to keep everything within its proper context, biblically, historically, and culturally.

I have a couple of questions for you free and anyone else who is like minded and cares to answer.

Why did Adam and Eve need to be removed from God's presence for one sin?

With one sin, they not only sinned, but also made themselves accountable before God, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They were no longer innocent due to their ignorance.

Why does the Bible speak of justification for believers as past tense if our works are required?

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

You might ask... what if the they lived a life of faith, and then reject God later in life?

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

"Evidence" One of the evidences of a genuine faith is perseverance in said faith.

Dave

 

[Hopeful 2]

I have a couple of questions for you free and anyone else who is like minded and cares to answer.
Why did Adam and Eve need to be removed from God's presence for one sin?

God did not want them to also take part of the tree of life.

Why does the Bible speak of justification for believers as past tense if our works are required?
Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

From the writers perspective when he wrote it, it was in the past.
What do you mean by "our works" ?
Repentance from sin, and getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins ?
Enduring faithfully until the end ?
Or something else that is not commanded by our Lord ?

You might ask... what if the they lived a life of faith, and then reject God later in life?
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
"Evidence" One of the evidences of a genuine faith is perseverance in said faith.

Absolutely !

 

[Dave...]

God did not want them to also take part of the tree of life.

Hi hope

I believe that they had to wait, with all the OT saints, until Jesus lived a sinless life, and atoned for our sin. When Jesus ascended, that's when Adam and Eve were reunited with God.

The point being, if one sin separates us from God, what then can man do? [Jesus] The righteousness of God [/Jesus]

Jesus did it for us.

(Romans 5:1) --

It was the 'justification' for Paul and the people he was speaking to that was in the past. What justified them before God had already happened. If our works contribute to our salvation in any way, it would still be future. Paul and the people he was speaking to were all still alive when he wrote that letter. Yet they were already justified.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

The one true 'baptism'. The one true 'immersion'. The one true 'placing into'. That baptism, immersion, placing into, is by Jesus, with the Holy Spirit as the agent of that baptism, not water. This is the baptism initiated by faith. Faith alone, Jesus alone, Grace alone.

Dave

 

[Corn Pop]

I don't think Adam and Eve dunked each other in water so why do they get a free pass, and Moses, Asbraham, Noah, and so on?. Correct me if im wrong but water baptism was for the repentance of sins and started with John, and Jesus was baptised by John and repented for the house of Israel. Baptism was repentance for the house of Israel.

Another thing, are there any examples in scripture where peoppe not of the house of Isreal getting baptised in water?. Correct me if there is because I dont see it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi hope
I believe that they had to wait, with all the OT saints, until Jesus lived a sinless life, and atoned for our sin. When Jesus ascended, that's when Adam and Eve were reunited with God.

I was thinking more along the lines of "why were Adam and Eve removed for the garden of Eden ?".
Back to your point, though, where is it written that they were removed from God's presence ?
Adam and Eve won't be reunited with God until the day of judgement.

The point being, if one sin separates us from God, what then can man do? [Jesus] The righteousness of God [/Jesus]

Man now has the opportunity to repent of sin, and be baptized into Jesus Christ...thanks to Jesus.

Jesus did it for us.

Thanks be to God !

(Romans 5:1) --
It was the 'justification' for Paul and the people he was speaking to that was in the past. What justified them before God had already happened. If our works contribute to our salvation in any way, it would still be future. Paul and the people he was speaking to were all still alive when he wrote that letter. Yet they were already justified.

I was justified by the blood of Christ, when I was "immersed" into the death and burial of Jesus. (1 Cor 6:11, Rom 6:3)
That baptism was of my own free will, so if you want to call obedience to God a "work" so be it.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
The one true 'baptism'. The one true 'immersion'. The one true 'placing into'. That baptism, immersion, placing into, is by Jesus, with the Holy Spirit as the agent of that baptism, not water.

Don't the Spirit, water, and blood of cleansing "agree in one" in 1 John 5:8 ?

This is the baptism initiated by faith. Faith alone, Jesus alone, Grace alone.

Your list of three elements nullifies all the "alones" you could print.

Dave

 

[Corn Pop]

Baptism is being buried and raised through Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit through faith and recieving Gods grace and mercy both for jew and non jew. Water baptism is a baptism of repentance in the house of Israel for the forgiveness of sins.

Jesus was punished , buried, and raised for all that all might be saved through him. That's the baptism.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Baptism is being buried and raised through Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit through faith and recieving Gods grace and mercy both for jew and non jew. Water baptism is a baptism of repentance in the house of Israel for the forgiveness of sins and Jesus being of the house of Israel repented for Israels sin and got baptised.

I find I cannot agree with most of that.
What I do agree with is...water baptism is for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

 

[Corn Pop]

I find I cannot agree with most of that.
What I do agree with is...water baptism is for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

John only baptised in water and said there is a greater baptism. Water baptism is not a baptism of the Holy Spirit. As i see in scripture someone can have water but not the Spirit yet can have the Spirit yet not had water. Correct me if im wrong.

"but he who sent me to give baptism with water said to me, The one on whom you see the Spirit coming down and resting, it is he who gives baptism with the Holy Spirit."

And there is a few verses about being sealed by the Holy Spirit through Jesus and his baptism. "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption"

And in scripture some people had only been in John's baptism of water and it was only when they knew there was a Spirit and the laying on of hands they recieved the Holy Spirit?.

So guess I can at least conclude the work of water alone does not save as can have water but what's water without the Spirit.

So can someone recieve the Spirit without water?. I guess I need to study more and someone can show me where in scripture. Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah, correct me if im wrong but no one literally dunked them in water to be credited with righteousness by God. They believed God that Christ would come and deliver, and we all believe God Christ did come and delivered. That's called faith.

 

[Corn Pop]

Jesus said “Verily, verily I say unto thee, unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

Yet how water Is defined and the water Jesus is speaking about is the question.

 

[Corn Pop]

Through Jesus is the water as he makes one clean and through him comes the Holy Spirit. Water is a symbol of cleaning and Jesus washes clean and through him is the Spirit sent.

I think thats the Water and Spirit Jesus was talking about. His baptism.

Water symbolises cleaning. Christ is the water baptism. I only need his living water.

"Our sins are washed away and we are made clean because Christ gave His own body as a gift to God. He did this once for all time."

I don't need to believe Mary was ever virgin or someone to dunk my head in water, I just need Christ. That's just my belief.

 

[Randy]

It is written..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16)
Men "call on the name of the Lord" at their baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)

It is also written as I posted
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
That was defined for us by Paul.
if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved

I stated Jesus is not bound to water baptism in order for Him to forgive sin and agreed water baptism is shown as well. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus not water baptism which is stated as a pledge of a clear conscience towards God. God grants us repentance which leads to the knowledge of the truth. (grace)

 

[Corn Pop]

Christs death, burial, and ressurection is the baptism of Water and Spirit.

Christ washes clean and gives the Spirit to whoever believes and puts there trust and hope in him that baptism that is the gospel. Thats baptised.


Jesus said “Verily, verily I say unto thee, unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

If someone has Christ wash them clean through his works and give them the Spirit then I guess they been baptised in both water and Spirit.

 

[Hopeful 2]

John only baptised in water and said there is a greater baptism. Water baptism is not a baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I agree, and I appreciate your interest in the subject.

As i see in scripture someone can have water but not the Spirit yet can have the Spirit yet not had water. Correct me if im wrong.

By "have water", I assume you mean water baptism.
Many have been baptized using water in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and have not received the gift of the Holy Ghost...(also known as the baptism of the Holy Spirit).
That is because they have not repented of sin.

"but he who sent me to give baptism with water said to me, The one on whom you see the Spirit coming down and resting, it is he who gives baptism with the Holy Spirit."

Correct.
Men baptize using water, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
God baptizes with the Holy Ghost.
The water baptism in the name of the Lord cleans the "temple", so it is fit for the Holy Ghost's residency.

And there is a few verses about being sealed by the Holy Spirit through Jesus and his baptism. "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption"

That is the baptism of the Spirit that seals us until the day of redemption.

And in scripture some people had only been in John's baptism of water and it was only when they knew there was a Spirit and the laying on of hands they recieved the Holy Spirit?.

Yes, the twelve at Ephesus, in Acts 19, had been baptized unto repentance using John's water baptism.
But until they were baptized, again with water, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins they couldn't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost/Spirit baptism.

So guess I can at least conclude the work of water alone does not save as can have water but what's water without the Spirit.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is a waste of time, if one won't repent of sin.
The baptism of the Holy Ghost won't save someone if they do not endure faithfully until the end.
All four of those are required for salvation on the last day of earth.

So can someone recieve the Spirit without water?.

Yes, there was one occurrence at the house of Cornelius.
But that was a special case, meant to show the Jews that Gentiles were also worthy of conversion.

I guess I need to study more and someone can show me where in scripture. Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah, correct me if im wrong but no one literally dunked them in water to be credited with righteousness by God. They believed God that Christ would come and deliver, and we all believe God Christ did come and delivered. That's called faith.

Three of the four you listed were pre-Law, so had no sins imputed against them.
It is written..."... for where no law is, there is no transgression." (Rom 4:15)
And..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

God gave the Law to Moses to show the world exactly what He forbade, and what was sinful.
The law had ways of atonement for sin, but until Jesus was raised from the dead all men had to walk in the "flesh".
Since His resurrection, we have been enabled to be "immersed" into Him, and into His death, burial, and resurrection, by water baptism in His name.
By our resurrection with Him, we have been enabled to walk in the Spirit, instead of in and after the "flesh".
Those who won't turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, will not be able to walk in the Spirit.

 

[Hopeful 2]

It is also written as I posted
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
That was defined for us by Paul.
if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved

I agree.
But that "calling on the name of the Lord" occurs at baptism in His name.
Acts 22:16..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

I stated Jesus is not bound to water baptism in order for Him to forgive sin and agreed water baptism is shown as well.

I disagree.
Was Peter filled with the Holy Ghost when he said..."Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
I say Jesus is bound by Spirit initiated prophesy.

We are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus

How do we get "in Christ Jesus" ?
Rom 6:3 says..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
Gal 3:27 says..."For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
Some have a faith that is outside of Christ Jesus.

not water baptism which is stated as a pledge of a clear conscience towards God.

The scripture you paraphrase is actually..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Peter 3:21)
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins provides us with a clear conscience by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
If we are part of His death and burial, we are also part of His resurrection, and new creatures.
All by water baptism in His name, (after a true turn from sin).

God grants us repentance which leads to the knowledge of the truth. (grace)

Isn't that the truth Jesus said could free us from service to sin ? (John 8:32-34)

 

[JLB]

Jesus said “Verily, verily I say unto thee, unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

Yet how water Is defined and the water Jesus is speaking about is the question.

Born of water = Born of the flesh - natural birth.

Verse 6 is the answer.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh

 

[Hopeful 2]

Born of water = Born of the flesh - natural birth.

Verse 6 is the answer.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh

New creatures have been reborn of the Spirit !
They are Spirit !

 

[Free]

Born of water = Born of the flesh - natural birth.

Verse 6 is the answer.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh

So, to be consistent then, you must necessarily believe that babies that die by miscarriages and abortions, or are stillborn, cannot enter the kingdom of God. Is that your position?

What in the context makes you think “born of water” is referring to natural birth?