“The Romans Road†has a disastrous fork in the road!

[Jethro Bodine]

Explain this verse to us, George:

Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." (John 9:40 NIV)

I'm quoting the clear words of scripture. God condemns or acquits on the basis of what we know and are accountable for, not what we don't know. And the scriptures tell us plainly that the testimony of God has gone out into all the world in one fashion of another to make men accountable. Paul even prefaces his Romans 2 argument with that very fact:

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened." (Romans 1:18-21 NIV)

Let's leave the judging (that every single soul who has never heard about Christ and the gospel is damned) to God, who alone knows who has responded appropriately in faith to that which God has shown them, glorifying and thanking him, and who has not. Okay?

Well of course he was speaking to those who thought to justify themselves by works of the law, Those who think they can "earn" salvation by good works. But the sinner admits the truth of the Gospel, that "none are righteous, no not one" and the only way to be saved is by faith. This is pretty basic stuff, that a first year bible student would understand.

Actually, George, he is talking about those who "don't have the law" (Romans 2:14 NIV).

Well of course that makes no sense, but it does not matter to the truth I made, those who claim to have their own righteousness are those who are blind to their sin and all need the Blood of Christ and to accept His Righteousness by faith.

What you need to do is convince us that the person who never heard of Jesus' gospel message of forgiveness but who responds in faith to what he does know about God's righteousness and the judgment to come is somehow still in a works righteousness.

The problem is, the church can't see that believing in the message of God's forgiveness, and the judgment to come, and then repenting because you believe in that truth is indeed a salvation by faith. But we've have been erroneously taught to believe that equates to be trying to earn your salvation--that the repentance part is optional, not an expected and obligatory outcome of believing the message (like getting wet is the expected and obligatory outcome of going swimming). And that is why I think it's hard for many to understand how God can deal justly with those who have not heard about Jesus' gospel.

It's a deeply, deeply seated indoctrination in the church. A repentantless faith is a faith that can not save. Repentance does not mean perfection. It means a change of mind, a new mindset about the gospel and sin, and a determination to walk in the righteousness of Christ, not our own. And, most importantly of all, it hardly includes a rejection of the very blood that made that possible. But OSAS says you do not need to have to the very end the very thing that made your salvation possible--your trust in the blood of Christ to remove sin guilt.

 

[smaller]

Your hiding behind a weak and vague argument. To think the way you do is to have no gospel truth at all.

I might not see like you, that's for sure. I already know whatever 'reflections' I have are not perfect, so that's where I start from every time with myself and anyone else.

Those who think they have perfect reflections, to me, are deceived. I don't condemn them to hell for being deceived.

It's every man for himself because it's impossible to discern the truth.

It's actually very easy to see that some other guy (or denomination) does not have PERFECT TRUTH.

There is a difference between a person who sees the fact that no other person sees Perfectly and somebody who claims to see PERFECTLY claiming their sights are PERFECT TRUTH.

Not discerning everything PERFECTLY doesn't mean there is no discernment, only that it is not PERFECT.

Again, a popular argument among unbelievers, not those in the church. I'm not suggesting you're an unbeliever. I'm simply showing you how worldly and misguided and uninformed these beliefs are.

And I'm showing you the fallacy of claimers to PERFECT TRUTH. To me all such claimers are liars and are deceived. And as such I have zero interests in falling into such mind traps.

Take your reflections any direction you think you see. The bottom line is that NONE of us see PERFECTLY.

I know this simple factual approach is not a friend to denominationalism. I never met a denomination who claims they see partially. They (nearly) all claim Perfect Sight or they'd have no members. Who want's to follow a loser anyway huh?

Therein lies a dilemma doesn't it? Many believers do in fact have a very worldly approach to their particular flavor, wanting and thinking they have thee only PERFECT reflection.

I know better. IN Biblical terms one needs to understand their naked pitiful blindness in order to even see at all.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your hiding behind a weak and vague argument. To think the way you do is to have no gospel truth at all.

I might not see like you, that's for sure. I already know whatever 'reflections' I have are not perfect, so that's where I start from every time with myself and anyone else.

Those who think they have perfect reflections, to me, are deceived. I don't condemn them to hell for being deceived.

It's every man for himself because it's impossible to discern the truth.

It's actually very easy to see that some other guy (or denomination) does not have PERFECT TRUTH.

There is a difference between a person who sees the fact that no other person sees Perfectly and somebody who claims to see PERFECTLY claiming their sights are PERFECT TRUTH.

Not discerning everything PERFECTLY doesn't mean there is no discernment, only that it is not PERFECT.

Again, a popular argument among unbelievers, not those in the church. I'm not suggesting you're an unbeliever. I'm simply showing you how worldly and misguided and uninformed these beliefs are.

And I'm showing you the fallacy of claimers to PERFECT TRUTH. To me all such claimers are liars and are deceived. And as such I have zero interests in falling into such mind traps.

Take your reflections any direction you think you see. The bottom line is that NONE of us see PERFECTLY.

I know this simple factual approach is not a friend to denominationalism. I never met a denomination who claims they see partially. They (nearly) all claim Perfect Sight or they'd have no members. Who want's to follow a loser anyway huh?

Therein lies a dilemma doesn't it? Many believers do in fact have a very worldly approach to their particular flavor, wanting and thinking they have thee only PERFECT reflection.

I know better. IN Biblical terms one needs to understand their naked pitiful blindness in order to even see at all.

s

But smaller, why aren't you getting this? You insist faith itself is not an essential part of being saved (yet you lambaste us for suggesting an uninformed pagan might have faith and be saved?). How is it that you insist the church embrace your personal version of imperfect vision? How is that even reasonable? That, as I say, is the world's argument, the unbelievers argument straining to somehow be saved without submitting to the way God said to be saved.

The point is, there are some truths of the gospel that simply are not up for debate. Justification by faith is one of them. To depart from that is to be in another religion, not be a disagreeing part of the gospel in the Bible.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

George, smaller, go back to the many scriptures I posted and explain why they can't be taken for what they plainly say. That's the only way you're going to get your point across. Truthfully, opinions, including mine, not connected to scripture don't mean much. Open the Bible up and start showing us why we don't have to have faith to the end as demonstrated by a mindset of repentance in order to expect salvation on the Day of Judgment. That's the only way you'll win anyone over to your argument.

Show us Biblically that we don't have to take the narrow side of the fork in the road to be saved on the Day of Wrath. I've been showing why we do.


“13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

(Matthew 7:13-14, 21, 24-27 NIV)

 

[George Muller]

What you need to do is convince us that the person who never heard of Jesus' gospel message of forgiveness but who responds in faith to what he does know about God's righteousness and the judgment to come is somehow still in a works righteousness.

Well if the clear reading of the scriptures and the words of the Lord Himslf, do not convince you that faith in Christ is required? Then I would not think you would heed my words either? How can one "repond in faith" apart from Christ? I do not even understand what you are trying to affirm in this post? Do you believe that a person is saved apart from faith IN CHRIST?

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Seems clear to me!

 

[George Muller]

George, smaller, go back to the many scriptures I posted and explain why they can't be taken for what they plainly say. That's the only way you're going to get your point across. Truthfully, opinions, including mine, not connected to scripture don't mean much. Open the Bible up and start showing us why we don't have to have faith to the end as demonstrated by a mindset of repentance in order to expect salvation on the Day of Judgment. That's the only way you'll win anyone over to your argument.

So the believer, who has excepted Christ and washed in His Blood, needs this strict standard of "faith" but the nonbeliever who rejects Christ, does not really even need faith to be saved? And you want us to come into the middle of your doctrine and try to convince you of the truth? I think you should start here and admit the error you are in and then we can bring some correction to your other doctrinal errors.

 

[Eugene]

Hi Jethro and thanks for your response, but I look at things differently as to what the word "Saved" entails and its application differs. First, it is the new nature of Christ in us that our Father sees. Regardless the spin, everlasting does not mean conditional. An excerpt from a pamphlet I wrote is below.

Ephesians 2:8, 9. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Now, if salvation is a gift, we can't do anything to earn it, but you read in Philippians 2:12 that you must work out your own salvation with all fear and trembling. If God has provided this salvation as a free gift, how am I to add anything to that?

First - It is provisional. If you accept Jesus as your savior, you will be saved. Romans 10:9-10. "If you say with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Second - When you become saved, it is at this time that you are born again and have overcome the penalty of sin, or become saved from the great white throne judgment and the resulting lake of fire. John 5:24, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." In Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus."

Third - The working out your own salvation referred to in Philippians 2:12 is learning to overcome the habit of sin in our lives. This is the experiencing part of our salvation and is another step in our growth as a Christian. 2 Peter 1:5-7 tells us to "Add to your faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity." To realize this growth in our lives, we must learn to begin counting our old man dead. Romans 6:6. "Knowing this, that our old man (The Adamic nature) is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” Ephesians 4:22 “That ye put off concerning the former conversation (Manner of life) the old man who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;” Colossians 3:9 “Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds." We all have an old man we should count as dead that still wants to rule our lives. Even though the Apostle Paul knew he was saved, he experienced all kinds of problems with the old man trying to control his life. Romans 7:14-25 states that (15) he ends up doing that which he hates. In (16,17), Paul realizes that if he agrees that the law is good, then it is no more him that was responsible, but sin that was in him. In looking for an answer he says (24) "Who shall deliver me?" (25) "I thank God through Jesus Christ"

Romans 8:1. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." And in Romans 8:4 it says that "The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Fourth - We will be saved from this corrupt world. In Romans 8:18-23, Paul states (18) "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (21) Because the creature (Creation) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." John states in 1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

God's grace allows unbelievers to enter the kingdom? That's completely contrary to the gospel message. The Bible is very clear about nothing impure or evil being in the kingdom that believers will one day inhabit. Unbelievers are outside of the kingdom.

Seemingly any that has any sin whatsoever below will not inherit the kingdom. With the thought that these follow and set the conditional quality of our eternal life, the slightest offense disqualifies us. I would suggest that judgment of condemnation, and that of reward is determined solely by the blood shed for us that we have applied to our eternal future.

1 Corinthians 6:9- 10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

George, smaller, go back to the many scriptures I posted and explain why they can't be taken for what they plainly say. That's the only way you're going to get your point across. Truthfully, opinions, including mine, not connected to scripture don't mean much. Open the Bible up and start showing us why we don't have to have faith to the end as demonstrated by a mindset of repentance in order to expect salvation on the Day of Judgment. That's the only way you'll win anyone over to your argument.

So the believer, who has excepted Christ and washed in His Blood, needs this strict standard of "faith" but the nonbeliever who rejects Christ, does not really even need faith to be saved? And you want us to come into the middle of your doctrine and try to convince you of the truth? I think you should start here and admit the error you are in and then we can bring some correction to your other doctrinal errors.

You have not been reading carefully enough.

When the pagan, who has no knowledge of Christ and the gospel, believes in what God has shown him and then repents, that faith is the basis for his salvation.

The Christ-less pagan is saved by his faith, just as we are saved by our faith in what we know about the forgiveness of sins in the very specific revelation of Jesus Christ.

I have been saying this all along.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What you need to do is convince us that the person who never heard of Jesus' gospel message of forgiveness but who responds in faith to what he does know about God's righteousness and the judgment to come is somehow still in a works righteousness.

Well if the clear reading of the scriptures and the words of the Lord Himslf, do not convince you that faith in Christ is required? Then I would not think you would heed my words either?

How do you have faith in a Christ you never heard of? How is it that the gospel of God's forgiveness has only been in the message of Christ in these last 2000 years of human history, but we see people responding in faith to God and being saved well before that?

How can one "repond in faith" apart from Christ? I do not even understand what you are trying to affirm in this post? Do you believe that a person is saved apart from faith IN CHRIST?

On what basis were the OT saints justified? Answer that and you have the answer to your own question.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Seems clear to me!

That is made clear to you and me, and our response of faith has to be in accordance with that.

You have to read the Bible and see that this specific object of faith, Jesus Christ, has only been revealed in these last days, and that people prior to that revelation were saved by their faith according to their (limited) revelation of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi Jethro and thanks for your response, but I look at things differently as to what the word "Saved" entails and its application differs. First, it is the new nature of Christ in us that our Father sees. Regardless the spin, everlasting does not mean conditional. An excerpt from a pamphlet I wrote is below.

Ephesians 2:8, 9. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Now, if salvation is a gift, we can't do anything to earn it, but you read in Philippians 2:12 that you must work out your own salvation with all fear and trembling. If God has provided this salvation as a free gift, how am I to add anything to that?

First - It is provisional. If you accept Jesus as your savior, you will be saved. Romans 10:9-10. "If you say with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Second - When you become saved, it is at this time that you are born again and have overcome the penalty of sin, or become saved from the great white throne judgment and the resulting lake of fire. John 5:24, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." In Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus."

Third - The working out your own salvation referred to in Philippians 2:12 is learning to overcome the habit of sin in our lives. This is the experiencing part of our salvation and is another step in our growth as a Christian. 2 Peter 1:5-7 tells us to "Add to your faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity." To realize this growth in our lives, we must learn to begin counting our old man dead. Romans 6:6. "Knowing this, that our old man (The Adamic nature) is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.†Ephesians 4:22 “That ye put off concerning the former conversation (Manner of life) the old man who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;†Colossians 3:9 “Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds." We all have an old man we should count as dead that still wants to rule our lives. Even though the Apostle Paul knew he was saved, he experienced all kinds of problems with the old man trying to control his life. Romans 7:14-25 states that (15) he ends up doing that which he hates. In (16,17), Paul realizes that if he agrees that the law is good, then it is no more him that was responsible, but sin that was in him. In looking for an answer he says (24) "Who shall deliver me?" (25) "I thank God through Jesus Christ"

Romans 8:1. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." And in Romans 8:4 it says that "The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Fourth - We will be saved from this corrupt world. In Romans 8:18-23, Paul states (18) "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (21) Because the creature (Creation) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." John states in 1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

God's grace allows unbelievers to enter the kingdom? That's completely contrary to the gospel message. The Bible is very clear about nothing impure or evil being in the kingdom that believers will one day inhabit. Unbelievers are outside of the kingdom.

Seemingly any that has any sin whatsoever below will not inherit the kingdom. With the thought that these follow and set the conditional quality of our eternal life, the slightest offense disqualifies us. I would suggest that judgment of condemnation, and that of reward is determined solely by the blood shed for us that we have applied to our eternal future.

1 Corinthians 6:9- 10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Hmmm...long post.

I'll have to come back to it later when I have time to read and contemplate it and can answer thoughtfully.

Right now I'm just popping in and out as I can while I take advantage of the holiday weekend to get some things done around the place.

 

[George Muller]

How do you have faith in a Christ you never heard of? How is it that the gospel of God's forgiveness has only been in the message of Christ in these last 2000 years of human history, but we see people responding in faith to God and being saved well before that?

Show me that? For from the time Able offered the Lamb, faith has been in Christ. Abrahm knew Christ well. Christ is the Author and the finisher of all true faith, to suggest that some could be saved apart from HIM, Is to make an extreme error and then to try to condemn believers by a standard you do not deem needed for non-believers is just more error. The muslims teach aginst Christ in their own koran, to ignore that and somehow suggest they are saved apart from Him, can never be accepted as truth.

 

[Eugene]

Yes, the Judge of all the earth shall do right, that's my point.

God desires all men to be saved - but because they were born prior to 25 AD or in the wrong hemisphere, they are damned for eternity??? Your Indian ancestors wouldn't think much of that...

Not even close to what I am saying. God looks on the heart of man and judges righteously. My thoughts are; how could God do that without giving them opportunity to believe? I posted this very short example or testimony at the link below of how He reached one young man, and I don't doubt God's power to have reached all creation, and that He will continue to do so.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=50670&p=779217&viewfull=1#post779217

 

[George Muller]

God is righteous in all His ways, He has commanded that all men should hear the gospel, and that all men must come to Christ Jesus to be saved. Now if some have not heard? Thats not our judgemnt to save those who have not heard. But if we know God and trust in His Righteousness, we know that whatever He does is right. He has also declared that some where made for destruction and some where made for mercy. Its our part to preach Jesus Christ as that which saves all who believe. Its also the message of the gospel, that those who reject Him, will be destroyed, this is the gospel, and no man has authority to go beyond its truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, the Judge of all the earth shall do right, that's my point.

God desires all men to be saved - but because they were born prior to 25 AD or in the wrong hemisphere, they are damned for eternity??? Your Indian ancestors wouldn't think much of that...

Not even close to what I am saying. God looks on the heart of man and judges righteously. My thoughts are; how could God do that without giving them opportunity to believe? I posted this very short example or testimony at the link below of how He reached one young man, and I don't doubt God's power to have reached all creation, and that He will continue to do so.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=50670&p=779217&viewfull=1#post779217

I thought Eugene was making Francis' point, too, that if God is unjust, how can he be judge of the earth?

"5...God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so (God is unjust), how could God judge the world?" (Romans 2:5-6 NIV)

And part of the justice of God is not condemning those who aren't accountable to what they don't know in the first place--namely a specific faith and trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin they know nothing about.

But I understand the point Eugene was making.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God is righteous in all His ways, He has commanded that all men should hear the gospel, and that all men must come to Christ Jesus to be saved. Now if some have not heard? Thats not our judgemnt to save those who have not heard. But if we know God and trust in His Righteousness, we know that whatever He does is right. He has also declared that some where made for destruction and some where made for mercy. Its our part to preach Jesus Christ as that which saves all who believe. Its also the message of the gospel, that those who reject Him, will be destroyed, this is the gospel, and no man has authority to go beyond its truth.

But you, based on the scripture you quoted, have all men condemned who haven't heard the gospel.

But how is it that we can ignore the fact that Paul says some gentiles who have not the law will not be condemned because they show that they have the requirements of a law they have not heard about written on their hearts. But you have them condemned. Explain.

God's righteous and accurate judgment about who he condemns is not the point. The point is, Paul says some show who don't have knowledge have the requirements of the law written on their hearts nonetheless, and will be declared righteous, not condemned as you insist.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How do you have faith in a Christ you never heard of? How is it that the gospel of God's forgiveness has only been in the message of Christ in these last 2000 years of human history, but we see people responding in faith to God and being saved well before that?

Show me that? For from the time Able offered the Lamb, faith has been in Christ. Abrahm knew Christ well. Christ is the Author and the finisher of all true faith, to suggest that some could be saved apart from HIM, Is to make an extreme error and then to try to condemn believers by a standard you do not deem needed for non-believers is just more error. The muslims teach aginst Christ in their own koran, to ignore that and somehow suggest they are saved apart from Him, can never be accepted as truth.

What did Rahab have faith in that saved her?

 

[George Muller]

And part of the justice of God is not condemning those who aren't accountable to what they don't know in the first place--namely a specific faith and trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin they know nothing about.

See here you replace your opinion of justice above what God has pronouced in His Word, if fact the word says God will save who He desires, and will destroy who he desires and he is righteous in doing so.

Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

If God destroys those who do not believe, for whatever reason, He alone is just and no man has any place to say otherwise.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi Jethro and thanks for your response, but I look at things differently as to what the word "Saved" entails and its application differs. First, it is the new nature of Christ in us that our Father sees. Regardless the spin, everlasting does not mean conditional.

Everlasting is conditional on faith. I shared five very specific scriptures that plainly say this. Plainly.

The condition for salvation is faith and trust in the body and blood of Christ for legal justification. If I no longer trust in the body and blood of Christ for justification I no longer have the ministry of his sacrifice at work on my behalf in heaven to keep me justified before God.

 

[George Muller]

How do you have faith in a Christ you never heard of? How is it that the gospel of God's forgiveness has only been in the message of Christ in these last 2000 years of human history, but we see people responding in faith to God and being saved well before that?

Show me that? For from the time Able offered the Lamb, faith has been in Christ. Abrahm knew Christ well. Christ is the Author and the finisher of all true faith, to suggest that some could be saved apart from HIM, Is to make an extreme error and then to try to condemn believers by a standard you do not deem needed for non-believers is just more error. The muslims teach aginst Christ in their own koran, to ignore that and somehow suggest they are saved apart from Him, can never be accepted as truth.

What did Rahab have faith in that saved her?

Well the scriptures declare she heard of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and believed and acted to help the spies. Do you believe the God of Abraham is Not Christ?
Before Abraham was "I AM"

 

[George Muller]

The condition for salvation is faith and trust in the body and blood of Christ for legal justification.

Unless your a muslim right?