“The Romans Road†has a disastrous fork in the road!

[Jethro Bodine]

Let's leave the judging (that every single soul who has never heard about Christ and the gospel is damned) to God, who alone knows who has responded appropriately in faith to that which God has shown them, glorifying and thanking him, and who has not.

This is all very nice and charitable on your part.
It also is what the RCC desires ... all religions lumped into one,
with the RCC being in charge of the future one-world religion.

How do you explain all of the verses, such as:
Jesus is the only way, Jesus is the Mediator between God and man, etc.?
And such as: The one who does not believe Jesus will receive God's wrath (John 3:36)?

BTW, I am only talking about post-NT here.
Are you saying ... Those who have not heard the gospel are not held accountable?

They are accountable to what they do know--that which God has revealed to them by way of nature and conscience. As Paul says they become a law unto themselves. This goes out the window as soon as the knowledge of Christ comes into play. Which makes it a largely moot argument these days.

The point of it for this discussion as far as I'm concerned about it is the truth that salvation has been, and always will be by faith in whatever it is that God has revealed to you--a faith leading to repentance in accordance with the knowledge being revealed. Even for the gentiles that don't have knowledge of God's righteousness revealed in the law. But somehow some OSAS sects go so far as to say we don't even have to continue in our faith in God because that's how sure and eternal salvation is. I showed five scriptures that plainly debunk that belief.

 

[Eugene]

According to Charles Hostetter's book "How to gain Assurance of your Salvation", many Christians don't know where they stand with God because they are indulging in sin. "Scriptures nowhere support the idea that a person can continue to practice known sin and still be saved."

"A saved person does not gain ultimate perfection in his life. But there is a vast difference between the one who deliberately and with desire practices sin, and the one who is caught off guard, or through ignorance or thoughtlessness commits a sin. The bible says, 'The man who lives 'in Christ' does not habitually sin.....But the man whose life is habitually sinful is spiritually a son of the devil'

I suppose I would have to ask if every sin you do is accidental? What are the consequences? Oh I can just be forgiven and forget it? Tomorrow I'm free to do it again? I'm seen so called Christians speed at least a mile an hour over the speed limit they're told to obey more than one time; have they turned on Christ? Oh I became angered, I had a bad thought, I lied; of course accidently and it was not my fault; the devil made me do it huh?

John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." Is one that doesn't love the Lord really a Christian? Why would they ever break a commandment? Maybe we're on to something here.

And then which laws do we choose to keep? In the flesh which of the following is going to keep us from God forever?
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Is the commandment to love; the greatest of commands prevalent in our lives? Do we give our lives for them, do without food, and even a place to lay our head to feed them. What must I do asked the

Luke 10:18-22
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

When it is based on me doing the keeping instead of Christ where does it end? there will always be lack. I still read in Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Thanks Rose.

 

[John Zain]

Let's leave the judging (that every single soul who has never heard about Christ and the gospel is damned) to God, who alone knows who has responded appropriately in faith to that which God has shown them, glorifying and thanking him, and who has not.

This is all very nice and charitable on your part.
It also is what the RCC desires ... all religions lumped into one,
with the RCC being in charge of the future one-world religion.

How do you explain all of the verses, such as:
Jesus is the only way, Jesus is the Mediator between God and man, etc.?
And such as: The one who does not believe Jesus will receive God's wrath
(John 3:36)?

BTW, I am only talking about post-NT here.
Are you saying ... Those who have not heard the gospel are not held accountable?

They are accountable to what they do know--that which God has revealed to them by way of nature and conscience. As Paul says they become a law unto themselves. This goes out the window as soon as the knowledge of Christ comes into play. Which makes it a largely moot argument these days.
The point of it for this discussion as far as I'm concerned about it is the truth that salvation has been, and always will be by faith in whatever it is that God has revealed to you--a faith leading to repentance in accordance with the knowledge being revealed. Even for the gentiles that don't have knowledge of God's righteousness revealed in the law. But somehow some OSAS sects go so far as to say we don't even have to continue in our faith in God because that's how sure and eternal salvation is. I showed five scriptures that plainly debunk that belief.

Yes, I agree ...
except there are many people today who haven't heard the gospel.
There are many millions of Muslims (in small villages) who don't even have Qur'ans
... they totally trust in their Emams (priests) for everything spiritual.
Hindus and Buddhists, I'm not sure.

 

[jasoncran]

Let's leave the judging (that every single soul who has never heard about Christ and the gospel is damned) to God, who alone knows who has responded appropriately in faith to that which God has shown them, glorifying and thanking him, and who has not.

This is all very nice and charitable on your part.
It also is what the RCC desires ... all religions lumped into one,
with the RCC being in charge of the future one-world religion.

How do you explain all of the verses, such as:
Jesus is the only way, Jesus is the Mediator between God and man, etc.?
And such as: The one who does not believe Jesus will receive God's wrath
(John 3:36)?

BTW, I am only talking about post-NT here.
Are you saying ... Those who have not heard the gospel are not held accountable?

They are accountable to what they do know--that which God has revealed to them by way of nature and conscience. As Paul says they become a law unto themselves. This goes out the window as soon as the knowledge of Christ comes into play. Which makes it a largely moot argument these days.
The point of it for this discussion as far as I'm concerned about it is the truth that salvation has been, and always will be by faith in whatever it is that God has revealed to you--a faith leading to repentance in accordance with the knowledge being revealed. Even for the gentiles that don't have knowledge of God's righteousness revealed in the law. But somehow some OSAS sects go so far as to say we don't even have to continue in our faith in God because that's how sure and eternal salvation is. I showed five scriptures that plainly debunk that belief.

Yes, I agree ...
except there are many people today who haven't heard the gospel.
There are many millions of Muslims (in small villages) who don't even have Qur'ans
... they totally trust in their Emams (priests) for everything spiritual.
Hindus and Buddhists, I'm not sure.

those are in remote areas of Afghanistan to my knowledge. I don't know about the other Islamic republics.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hello gentlemen,

may I chime in with one verse that supports both, the salvation through faith in Christ and (!) refraining from deeds that would lead to death?

"This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, keeping faith (!) and a good conscience (!), which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith (!)." (1. Timothy 1:18,19)

According to Charles Hostetter's book "How to gain Assurance of your Salvation", many Christians don't know where they stand with God because they are indulging in sin. "Scriptures nowhere support the idea that a person can continue to practice known sin and still be saved." (p. 20)

"A saved person does not gain ultimate perfection in his life. But there is a vast difference between the one who deliberately and with desire practices sin, and the one who is caught off guard, or through ignorance or thoughtlessness commits a sin. The bible says, 'The man who lives 'in Christ' does not habitually sin.....But the man whose life is habitually sinful is spiritually a son of the devil' (1.John3:6,8, J.B. Philips)."

I think that is basically the understanding that was above stated by dear brother Jethro Bodine.

And, if we truly love Jesus, our dear Lord, we will not want to make Him sad by doing something of which we know that it would offend Him. Don't you think so?

Love, Rose

That is exactly the understanding I've been trying to get across here. (Somehow it got clouded up with this matter of those who live and die never hearing the gospel, and I've strained to keep that matter in the context of what we've been talking about.)

Thank you for your supporting contribution.

 

[George Muller]

A Muslim locked away in a closed country carefully insulated from the gospel of the forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ (I was shocked they really do exist) can be saved if, despite the suppression of the truth around him, God speaks to him and that person responds in faith leading to repentance, thus showing that he has the requirements of God written on his heart by that faith. If a Muslim has heard the gospel of Christ and does not respond in faith when expected to, he can not be saved.

Not very much different than us who have heard the details of the gospel of Christ. It's all about faith..leading to repentance. Faith in accordance to whatever detail God has revealed the truth to you.

It's interesting to note that the Jesus Film ministry has lots of reports of God speaking to people in these closed countries before the Film teams arrive.

Well, I have a real hard time understanding your point, edited. You have basically come to a more biblical position, that all must accept-receive Christ to be saved. None of these free-passes are biblical. Having made the biblical position, I allow myself to trust in Gods wisdom, He is a good and just God. He will do that which He before ordained before the foundations of the world. He already knew all that would be saved before He ever made anything. Now some where made for mercy and some for destruction, He is righteous.

 

[reba]

Lets get back to topic ...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It sounds as if we are saved by unbelief and can only be condemned if we are justified by Christ. Does this not sound a little backward to you?

Even after I've explained it to you repeatedly, why do you still think I'm saying gentiles without the knowledge of the Bible and the gospel are saved by unbelief. I plainly said they are saved by the faith they place in whatever it is that God reveals to them outside of knowledge of the Bible. And that both, they, and those who do have knowledge of the Bible, are saved under the same condition of having faith in what was spoken to them. And both will be lost if they do not have faith in what God has spoken to them, in or out of a knowledge of the Bible. Why can't you see that's what I'm saying?

It's funny how in the church today 'faith' is automatically, under all circumstances and contexts seen as 'faith in Christ' even though the Bible shows us people who had faith, and were saved by that faith, in less specific revelations of God than the knowledge of Christ.

 

[George Muller]

I plainly said they are saved by the faith they place in whatever it is that God reveals to them outside of knowledge of the Bible.

A man is saved through the gospel edited

Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

[reba]

While this is being cleaned up you might use the time to cool off

 

[reba]

I did not delete EVERYTHING please get back to the OP topic.... When threads will not stay on topic it generally means they are done and ready to be, and stay closed..... IF you cant remember the topic it is there to be read again.....
2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself. Not necessarily directed at the last poster.

 

[Maedchen]

Dear John,
Could you please tell me what OSAS means? I really have never heard about it.

Hi Rose,

OSAS means Once Saved Always Saved,
i.e. a BAC (Born Again Christian) can never lose his/her salvation.

Dear John,

thank you for your explanation. I needed to know these abbreviations' meanings in order to understand the comments. (In this regard I am a bit slow. )

And thank you for your patience with us all. It seems that your thread has gotten a life of its own.

 

[Maedchen]

According to Charles Hostetter's book "How to gain Assurance of your Salvation", many Christians don't know where they stand with God because they are indulging in sin. "Scriptures nowhere support the idea that a person can continue to practice known sin and still be saved."

"A saved person does not gain ultimate perfection in his life. But there is a vast difference between the one who deliberately and with desire practices sin, and the one who is caught off guard, or through ignorance or thoughtlessness commits a sin. The bible says, 'The man who lives 'in Christ' does not habitually sin.....But the man whose life is habitually sinful is spiritually a son of the devil'

I suppose I would have to ask if every sin you do is accidental? What are the consequences? Oh I can just be forgiven and forget it? Tomorrow I'm free to do it again? I'm seen so called Christians speed at least a mile an hour over the speed limit they're told to obey more than one time; have they turned on Christ? Oh I became angered, I had a bad thought, I lied; of course accidently and it was not my fault; the devil made me do it huh?

John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." Is one that doesn't love the Lord really a Christian? Why would they ever break a commandment? Maybe we're on to something here.

And then which laws do we choose to keep? In the flesh which of the following is going to keep us from God forever?
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Is the commandment to love; the greatest of commands prevalent in our lives? Do we give our lives for them, do without food, and even a place to lay our head to feed them. What must I do asked the

Luke 10:18-22
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

When it is based on me doing the keeping instead of Christ where does it end? there will always be lack. I still read in Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Thanks Rose.

Dear Eugene,

I guess that you are right.
Of course I cannot say that every sin I commit is done accidentally, caused by the devil.
Of course then every sin will have consequences for me, when justified by the law only.

Yes, we must trust and believe that Jesus' blood is able to wash away every sin.

You know, I refer to our Heavenly Father as our loving Daddy. He has given us the opportunity to be reconciled with Him just through faith in His Son Jesus. But while being excused through faith, our heavenly Daddy still watches us and is sad when we choose to behave against His rules. He surely knows that we will always make mistakes, but don't you think that He might want to see at least our 'good will' to obey Him?

I think that is the connection of both statements in Scripture, that we are saved by grace ( not by works), but that God wants to have a living relationship with each one of us. And that includes not only taking from our side ( taking His forgiveness and love), but also showing Him our thankfulness and love by having the good will to obey Him. Like in a marriage, there is always taking and giving. If my husband loves me truly, he will do so even when I make my daily mistakes. But wouldn't he be very sad, if I would not at least show him that I tried to respect him as my husband ("head of the wife") and obeyed his rules and did not cheat him?

I can't explain it better than above. And I think that brother Jethro Bodine reasoned even more logical and elaborated than I.

Let's just do our best to make God smile a little bit when looking at us. Like good and dear children.

Love, Rose

 

[Deborah13]

Let's just do our best to make God smile a little bit when looking at us. Like good and dear children.

You make me smile with this post, Rose. This is how I feel about my relationship with God, He truly is my, Abba Father. I don't want to sin or be unloving to others because it doesn't please Him, I want to be a good child. I don't obey because I'm afraid of Him rejecting me. I know He loves me and I want to love Him back.

Bless you, Rose.

 

[Maedchen]

Let's just do our best to make God smile a little bit when looking at us. Like good and dear children.

You make me smile with this post, Rose. This is how I feel about my relationship with God, He truly is my, Abba Father. I don't want to sin or be unloving to others because it doesn't please Him, I want to be a good child. I don't obey because I'm afraid of Him rejecting me. I know He loves me and I want to love Him back.

Bless you, Rose.

Yes, exactly, dear Deborah. I think that you summed it up in the best possible way.

May God bless you, dear Deborah, and rejoice in you.

Love, Rose

 

[Maedchen]

Sorry Rose this has not been the issue, and I would ask you do you support jethros position that peole are saved apart from faith in Christ, with no standards of scripture, But that Christains who are washed in the Blood of Christ can be condemned by certain standards in the scriptures? It sounds as if we are saved by unbelief and can only be condemned if we are justified by Christ. Does this not sound a little backward to you?

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Dear George,

yes, it sounds "a little backward" to me. But I found a verse of which I am not so sure if it has been already mentioned on this thread ( I am on a tour with our team right now and could not read the whole pages again. By the way, that is why I am answering so late - I am sorry, George).

The verse is in Acts 17:30 and reads, "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent".

Therefore the return of Christ will only take place after Matthew24:14, so that all men would have heard about Christ and could chose to accept Him as Lord and Savior.

Further, if you are so kind as to read Deborah's last post above, you might understand what brother Jethro, Deborah and I am trying to say. In fact, I think that we are not far away from your opinion. We simply tried to combine both statements (salvation through grace and obeying) of the bible, instead of separating them.

Deborah summed it up so nicely, don't you think, dear George?

Love, Rose

 

[Eugene]

Let's just do our best to make God smile a little bit when looking at us. Like good and dear children.

Amen Sister Rose, that was a beautiful testimony and yes, our relationship with God is of utmost importance. David I believe learned that when he asked in Psalms 51:12, "Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit."

I also believe that all we do to have God's best is to yield to His leading. Regardless of the tag, our salvation in all aspects is by grace. Romans 11:6. "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

We read in Ephesians 2:10 that we are God's work in progress, and in Philippians 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Our following of the law or anything God wants to accomplish in our lives is provided by yielding to Him as He leads us in His paths of righteousness.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Many talk of a sin unto death, and we would have to compare scripture to even know what it might be, and yet God kept Moses. Moses did not believe God, was denied entrance into the promised land, did not sanctify the Lord and was told to go up and die because of it. Moses is still written in the book of Hebrews as a worthy of faith.

One Christian may go as far as eating only certain things, another eats all things and God receives them both. Romans 14:3. I say, do not believe God cannot, or is not going to keep us that are His.

Thanks Rose for your kindness and I'll bail out now; blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[francisdesales]

You still don't get that "reject" is not equal to "don't know about". Believes not = reject. How can you reject something you don't know about?

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

I agree about knowing about God, but George was talking about Jesus of Nazareth. Clearly, Paul doesn't think everyone knows about Jesus Christ...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, the Judge of all the earth shall do right, that's my point.

God desires all men to be saved - but because they were born prior to 25 AD or in the wrong hemisphere, they are damned for eternity??? Your Indian ancestors wouldn't think much of that...

Not even close to what I am saying. God looks on the heart of man and judges righteously. My thoughts are; how could God do that without giving them opportunity to believe? I posted this very short example or testimony at the link below of how He reached one young man, and I don't doubt God's power to have reached all creation, and that He will continue to do so.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=50670&p=779217&viewfull=1#post779217

I think we agree. God is not going to judge people because they didn't know about Jesus of Nazareth, which is what SOME people claim - one MUST know and declare Jesus as their personal savior to enter heaven. Clearly, that condemns NUMEROUS people to eternal hell for an unjust reason. I think you misunderstood what I said, I think we agree - God is not going to automatically condemn people to hell because they were born out of season.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Let's leave the judging (that every single soul who has never heard about Christ and the gospel is damned) to God, who alone knows who has responded appropriately in faith to that which God has shown them, glorifying and thanking him, and who has not.

This is all very nice and charitable on your part.
It also is what the RCC desires ... all religions lumped into one,
with the RCC being in charge of the future one-world religion.

LOL! I guess I didn't get that memo...