“The Romans Road†has a disastrous fork in the road!

[Jethro Bodine]

And part of the justice of God is not condemning those who aren't accountable to what they don't know in the first place--namely a specific faith and trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin they know nothing about.

See here you replace your opinion of justice above what God has pronouced in His Word, if fact the word says God will save who He desires, and will destroy who he desires and he is righteous in doing so.

Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

If God destroys those who do not believe, for whatever reason, He alone is just and no man has any place to say otherwise.

How is it that who God has ordained for salvation has been appointed outside of faith?

IOW, we know who is saved...by their faith, not by their unbelief. Understand?

Faith is in no way negated by what you shared.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The condition for salvation is faith and trust in the body and blood of Christ for legal justification.

Unless your a muslim right?

What I said is true for me and you, and everyone else who has heard the gospel of Jesus Christ.

For those who know nothing about the body and blood of Christ they are responsible to respond in faith according to whatever it is they know about God's righteousness and his judgment. Rahab was justified by believing that what was said about the invading Israelites, and what to do about that, was true, not by faith in the body and blood of Christ she knew nothing about.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How do you have faith in a Christ you never heard of? How is it that the gospel of God's forgiveness has only been in the message of Christ in these last 2000 years of human history, but we see people responding in faith to God and being saved well before that?

Show me that? For from the time Able offered the Lamb, faith has been in Christ. Abrahm knew Christ well. Christ is the Author and the finisher of all true faith, to suggest that some could be saved apart from HIM, Is to make an extreme error and then to try to condemn believers by a standard you do not deem needed for non-believers is just more error. The muslims teach aginst Christ in their own koran, to ignore that and somehow suggest they are saved apart from Him, can never be accepted as truth.

What did Rahab have faith in that saved her?

Well the scriptures declare she heard of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and believed and acted to help the spies. Do you believe the God of Abraham is Not Christ?
Before Abraham was "I AM"

Show me she knew all about God in the flesh, dying a sacrificial death for the sins of the world by which men can be saved.

 

[George Muller]

What did Rahab have faith in that saved her?

Well the scriptures declare she heard of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and believed and acted to help the spies. Do you believe the God of Abraham is Not Christ?
Before Abraham was "I AM"

Show me she knew all about God in the flesh, dying a sacrificial death for the sins of the world by which men can be saved.

Well of course we know that Christ and His purpose was not known to Rahab nor maybe but to those like Abraham? But now we do know and we have been given His Name and commanded to preach His gospel and that there is no other Name, by which a man can be saved.

Ac 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[George Muller]

The condition for salvation is faith and trust in the body and blood of Christ for legal justification.

Unless your a muslim right?

What I said is true for me and you, and everyone else who has heard the gospel of Jesus Christ.

For those who know nothing about the body and blood of Christ they are responsible to respond in faith according to whatever it is they know about God's righteousness and his judgment. Rahab was justified by believing that what was said about the invading Israelites, and what to do about that, was true, not by faith in the body and blood of Christ she knew nothing about.

well, this is in complete contradition of what Gods Word says;

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Why preach the gospel in your system? A man is better off not knowing the saving grace of Christ if your doctrines are true?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What did Rahab have faith in that saved her?

Well the scriptures declare she heard of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and believed and acted to help the spies. Do you believe the God of Abraham is Not Christ?
Before Abraham was "I AM"

Show me she knew all about God in the flesh, dying a sacrificial death for the sins of the world by which men can be saved.

Well of course we know that Christ and His purpose was not known to Rahab nor maybe but to those like Abraham? But now we do know and we have been given His Name and commanded to preach His gospel and that there is no other Name, by which a man can be saved.

Ac 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Well, I'm pretty sure I said in a previous post that this is a moot subject now anyway. With the vast knowledge of Christ and the gospel in the world now, these multitudes of people who don't know about Christ are almost a matter of history now. I remind unbelievers that when they try to use the 'what about those who have never heard about Christ' argument (to somehow excuse their own lack of faith) that they DO know about Christ, so nothing about that applies to them, and only a very few isolated tribes in various jungles of the world, and some people born in closed Muslim countries have not heard about the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The condition for salvation is faith and trust in the body and blood of Christ for legal justification.

Unless your a muslim right?

What I said is true for me and you, and everyone else who has heard the gospel of Jesus Christ.

For those who know nothing about the body and blood of Christ they are responsible to respond in faith according to whatever it is they know about God's righteousness and his judgment. Rahab was justified by believing that what was said about the invading Israelites, and what to do about that, was true, not by faith in the body and blood of Christ she knew nothing about.

well, this is in complete contradition of what Gods Word says;

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Why preach the gospel in your system? A man is better off not knowing the saving grace of Christ if your doctrines are true?

Which is why I must ask you then...why did Christ wait 4000 years to save mankind if he is, and always has been, the only object of one's faith that could save in times past?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What did Rahab have faith in that saved her?

Well the scriptures declare she heard of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and believed and acted to help the spies. Do you believe the God of Abraham is Not Christ?
Before Abraham was "I AM"

Show me she knew all about God in the flesh, dying a sacrificial death for the sins of the world by which men can be saved.

Well of course we know that Christ and His purpose was not known to Rahab nor maybe but to those like Abraham? But now we do know and we have been given His Name and commanded to preach His gospel and that there is no other Name, by which a man can be saved.

Ac 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I know this. But how does this fit in with people who have never heard the gospel but we know have the requirements of God written on their hearts and are justified? That was the whole point. You haven't answered it.

 

[jasoncran]

oh sheesh, [MENTION=88699]Jethro Bodine[/MENTION]. Don't force these guys to understand that torah was used to condemn men and to teach them that they need to live that way. thus when we fail the torah we have to go to God for cleansing.nah that is what the cross was for and paul mentions it. its where paul says having taken the writ of judgment and nailing it on the cross. hmm no reference to the cross and the reason for the judgement of the damned on it.

 

[George Muller]

Show me she knew all about God in the flesh, dying a sacrificial death for the sins of the world by which men can be saved.

Well of course we know that Christ and His purpose was not known to Rahab nor maybe but to those like Abraham? But now we do know and we have been given His Name and commanded to preach His gospel and that there is no other Name, by which a man can be saved.

Ac 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I know this. But how does this fit in with people who have never heard the gospel but we know have the requirements of God written on their hearts and are justified? That was the whole point. You haven't answered it.

Well I have answered it, thats Gods judgment and He will judge them in righteousness. They may all be destroyed? They may all be saved? But God has given us the responibilty to preach Christ and HIS SURE salvation. You seem to have left the issue of trying to save muslims? Are you still saving them in your doctrines, or does there rejection of Christ take them out of this universal salvation (except for christians) that you are trying to promote?

 

[George Muller]

What I said is true for me and you, and everyone else who has heard the gospel of Jesus Christ.

For those who know nothing about the body and blood of Christ they are responsible to respond in faith according to whatever it is they know about God's righteousness and his judgment. Rahab was justified by believing that what was said about the invading Israelites, and what to do about that, was true, not by faith in the body and blood of Christ she knew nothing about.

well, this is in complete contradition of what Gods Word says;

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Why preach the gospel in your system? A man is better off not knowing the saving grace of Christ if your doctrines are true?

Which is why I must ask you then...why did Christ wait 4000 years to save mankind if he is, and always has been, the only object of one's faith that could save in times past?

Well this would require a level of honesty in the Word of God to explain, for Christ was the beginning of all things, all things made by Him and for Him. But I cannot show this mystery to those who reject that He is the only salvation made known to man.

 

[Eugene]

What did Rahab have faith in that saved her?

Joshua 2:11 Rahab confessed God before man. "The LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath." She believed and because of that her works were manifest before man.

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

When we examine works of any manner we are pointing to the subject named. We are told the way of identifying one another in Christ. Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. By her works of receiving them they knew her to be with them."

James 2:23 ". . . Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." What work did Abraham do? He believed God as he offered his son Isaac.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified (before man) by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

 

[Maedchen]

Hello gentlemen,

may I chime in with one verse that supports both, the salvation through faith in Christ and (!) refraining from deeds that would lead to death?

"This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, keeping faith (!) and a good conscience (!), which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith (!)." (1. Timothy 1:18,19)

According to Charles Hostetter's book "How to gain Assurance of your Salvation", many Christians don't know where they stand with God because they are indulging in sin. "Scriptures nowhere support the idea that a person can continue to practice known sin and still be saved." (p. 20)

"A saved person does not gain ultimate perfection in his life. But there is a vast difference between the one who deliberately and with desire practices sin, and the one who is caught off guard, or through ignorance or thoughtlessness commits a sin. The bible says, 'The man who lives 'in Christ' does not habitually sin.....But the man whose life is habitually sinful is spiritually a son of the devil' (1.John3:6,8, J.B. Philips)."

I think that is basically the understanding that was above stated by dear brother Jethro Bodine.

And, if we truly love Jesus, our dear Lord, we will not want to make Him sad by doing something of which we know that it would offend Him. Don't you think so?

Love, Rose

 

[George Muller]

Hello gentlemen,

may I chime in with one verse that supports both, the salvation through faith in Christ and (!) refraining from deeds that would lead to death?

"This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, keeping faith (!) and a good conscience (!), which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith (!)." (1. Timothy 1:18,19)

According to Charles Hostetter's book "How to gain Assurance of your Salvation", many Christians don't know where they stand with God because they are indulging in sin. "Scriptures nowhere support the idea that a person can continue to practice known sin and still be saved." (p. 20)

"A saved person does not gain ultimate perfection in his life. But there is a vast difference between the one who deliberately and with desire practices sin, and the one who is caught off guard, or through ignorance or thoughtlessness commits a sin. The bible says, 'The man who lives 'in Christ' does not habitually sin.....But the man whose life is habitually sinful is spiritually a son of the devil' (1.John3:6,8, J.B. Philips)."

I think that is basically the understanding that was above stated by dear brother Jethro Bodine.

And, if we truly love Jesus, our dear Lord, we will not want to make Him sad by doing something of which we know that it would offend Him. Don't you think so?

Love, Rose

Sorry Rose this has not been the issue, and I would ask you do you support jethros position that peole are saved apart from faith in Christ, with no standards of scripture, But that Christains who are washed in the Blood of Christ can be condemned by certain standards in the scriptures? It sounds as if we are saved by unbelief and can only be condemned if we are justified by Christ. Does this not sound a little backward to you?

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[smaller]

But smaller, why aren't you getting this? You insist faith itself is not an essential part of being saved

I've never said that either. Where do you get this stuff from?

Will I take only your definition of faith as thee sole and only perfect definition? Uh, more than likely NOT.

Most believers can't even come up to scriptural standards on these matters and prefer non-existing concoctions.

(yet you lambaste us for suggesting an uninformed pagan might have faith and be saved?).

Again you slur me? What is your point in putting those kinds of statements in my mouth. Didn't I just cite you this scriptural fact about a family that did not know God in Christ whatsoever, yet were accepted by God in Christ?

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

I accept the 'fact' above.

How is it that you insist the church embrace your personal version of imperfect vision?

If you are interested in having a discussion with your fantasy version of me you are welcome to it. I could care less if they don't. Why? Because IT'S A FACT. Obviously most churches can't accept 'facts' by faith. I don't have an issue with it and I DO have issues associating with those who denigrate facts in the name of faith as such methods are NOT truthful or legitimate.

Do you really think you are going to find ANY head of ANY christian religious denomination who could hold a candle to Paul's measures of himself? You won't find one on the face of the planet. No, not ONE.

How is that even reasonable?

And you would prefer to pander to nonsense that denies scripture instead? WHY? Paul saw in part. So does everyone else. That's just the way it is Jethro. Sorry to inform you of the obvious. I accept the obvious 'in faith.'

That, as I say, is the world's argument, the unbelievers argument straining to somehow be saved without submitting to the way God said to be saved.

I really really doubt we are going to see alike on what that is or consists of either. I'm quite certain you have your 'heaven sifter' set pretty hard to eliminate as many as possible.

The point is, there are some truths of the gospel that simply are not up for debate. Justification by faith is one of them. To depart from that is to be in another religion, not be a disagreeing part of the gospel in the Bible.

Oh please. From a person who's been promoting 'works for salvation' for days now and you pull that one out of your hat?

Spare me.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Show me she knew all about God in the flesh, dying a sacrificial death for the sins of the world by which men can be saved.

Well of course we know that Christ and His purpose was not known to Rahab nor maybe but to those like Abraham? But now we do know and we have been given His Name and commanded to preach His gospel and that there is no other Name, by which a man can be saved.

Ac 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I know this. But how does this fit in with people who have never heard the gospel but we know have the requirements of God written on their hearts and are justified? That was the whole point. You haven't answered it.

Well I have answered it, thats Gods judgment and He will judge them in righteousness. They may all be destroyed? They may all be saved?

But the point is, they will be judged according to whether or not they respond in faith leading to repentance in regard to what they have been shown about God's righteousness, just as we are in regard to what we know about Christ.

You seem to have left the issue of trying to save muslims? Are you still saving them in your doctrines, or does there rejection of Christ take them out of this universal salvation (except for christians) that you are trying to promote?

You still aren't hearing the argument. The argument is not for some kind of non-faith based universal freebie salvation for the heathen, while those of us who know about Christ have to have faith or be lost.

A Muslim locked away in a closed country carefully insulated from the gospel of the forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ (I was shocked they really do exist) can be saved if, despite the suppression of the truth around him, God speaks to him and that person responds in faith leading to repentance, thus showing that he has the requirements of God written on his heart by that faith. If a Muslim has heard the gospel of Christ and does not respond in faith when expected to, he can not be saved.

Not very much different than us who have heard the details of the gospel of Christ. It's all about faith..leading to repentance. Faith in accordance to whatever detail God has revealed the truth to you.

It's interesting to note that the Jesus Film ministry has lots of reports of God speaking to people in these closed countries before the Film teams arrive.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And you would prefer to pander to nonsense that denies scripture instead?

No! I will not pander to the idea that we can reject our faith in the blood of Christ and still expect to be saved by the blood of Christ we no longer believe in. Faith in the blood of Christ is how a person is made safe, and remains safe, for the Day of Judgment.

Paul saw in part. So does everyone else. That's just the way it is Jethro.

But to see 'in part' on this matter of faith, in whatever God reveals to you, can not save anyone, pagan or Christian. You either have faith in what God said, or you don't.

That, as I say, is the world's argument, the unbelievers argument straining to somehow be saved without submitting to the way God said to be saved.

I really really doubt we are going to see alike on what that is or consists of either.

Read Matthew 5, 6, & 7. That's the narrow road that few find. That constitutes much of the 'doings' of faith in God that Jesus said at the end of chapter 7 will determine if you built your house on sand, or the rock, and whether your house will be able to stand in the judgment.

I'm quite certain you have your 'heaven sifter' set pretty hard to eliminate as many as possible.

God's sifter is set where the Bible says it's set...on faith leading to repentance. Faith according to what has been revealed to you, not what has not been revealed to you. I showed you this.

The point is, there are some truths of the gospel that simply are not up for debate. Justification by faith is one of them. To depart from that is to be in another religion, not be a disagreeing part of the gospel in the Bible.

Oh please. From a person who's been promoting 'works for salvation' for days now and you pull that one out of your hat?

I know it's hard for us Protestants to grasp, but the faith that justifies (makes one righteous before God) is the faith that leads a person into repentance and a new mindset about sin (not perfection). But we've been trained to hear that as soon as you include repentance in the same sentence of faith it automatically means 'works salvation' and trying to earn your salvation through the merit of works.

The footprint of genuine justifying faith is what that faith leads a person to do. Jesus said the sons of Abraham DO what Abraham did. No works gospel here. Justification is by faith...faith that can then be seen in what it does according to a new mindset about sin. The one whose mind is not changed about sin is the one who has a faith that can not save. That doesn't mean works justify (make righteous). It means the faith that justifies produces good works. If your faith can't do that you have a faith that can't justify you.

I would not be surprised if you still can not understand. We've been duped by a very powerful indoctrination in the church that can't connect repentance from dead works to the faith that justifies.

 

[John Zain]

Paul said we are MORE guilty than the Jews because we have the Holy Spirit to
guide us into all truth, etc.,

Scripture please. Thanks

Heb 10:26-31

A 'knowledge of the truth' is not the same as saving faith.

Yes, Hebrews 6:4-6 is preferable to me also.

 

[John Zain]

Let's leave the judging (that every single soul who has never heard about Christ and the gospel is damned) to God, who alone knows who has responded appropriately in faith to that which God has shown them, glorifying and thanking him, and who has not.

This is all very nice and charitable on your part.
It also is what the RCC desires ... all religions lumped into one,
with the RCC being in charge of the future one-world religion.

How do you explain all of the verses, such as:
Jesus is the only way, Jesus is the Mediator between God and man, etc.?
And such as: The one who does not believe Jesus will receive God's wrath (John 3:36)?

BTW, I am only talking about post-NT here.
Are you saying ... Those who have not heard the gospel are not held accountable?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Show me she knew all about God in the flesh, dying a sacrificial death for the sins of the world by which men can be saved.

Well of course we know that Christ and His purpose was not known to Rahab nor maybe but to those like Abraham? But now we do know and we have been given His Name and commanded to preach His gospel and that there is no other Name, by which a man can be saved.

Ac 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Well, I'm pretty sure I said in a previous post that this is a moot subject now anyway. With the vast knowledge of Christ and the gospel in the world now, these multitudes of people who don't know about Christ are almost a matter of history now. I remind unbelievers that when they try to use the 'what about those who have never heard about Christ' argument (to somehow excuse their own lack of faith) that they DO know about Christ, so nothing about that applies to them, and only a very few isolated tribes in various jungles of the world, and some people born in closed Muslim countries have not heard about the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ.

Yea, you guys are really getting beat-up on this one, next time francis steps off into trying to save muslims, you might want to think twice about jumping in the sinking boat of one world religion. Which is coming, and these types of aurguments will be at the heart of this new religious system. Those who do not know the true gospel, will be in big trouble.

I think it's been made clear that once you know about Christ the argument no longer applies. I suppose if people miss that point being made, as you have, then, yes, the argument will be misused to defend a one world religion that says anything goes...including, by the way, not having to have faith (or repentance) in Christ to the very end to be saved.